SSj4Wingzero's Post Deserves Significant Exposure

[Crazy⑧s]

☆ I thought that this post was worthy of its own thread, so I copied and posted it here. Analysis at its best. Of course, I agree with its entirety, and of course, an opinion - shared or no - is formed through the eye of the beholder.

I think, after having said basically the same thing all last season, that this is a topic primed for debate. So cheers to you, SSj, for putting in some real thought. I'm not giving props for agreeing with me alone, I just enjoyy observing your astute observations.

That, and you never start your own threads! :lol:

_______________________________________________________________

SSj4Wingzero: a post regarding the means of the loss in Golden State.

________________________________________________________________

I think it all comes down to the coaching.

We can agree that Mike D'Antoni has a way more talented roster right now than he did during his heyday with the Suns, right?

Yeah, he had better roleplayers in Phoenix such as Barbosa and Raja Bell, but in NY he has a second superstar in Carmelo and we all know that the NBA is a superstar's league so the second superstar is far more valuable than a team of mediocre roleplayers who couldn't contain Tony Parker.

If Mike D'Antoni could score the living hell out of any opponent during his Phoenix days, and he has a more talented roster, where are the results? During the D'Antoni Phoenix days we saw Steve Nash make a fool out of everyone in the Western conference by constantly abusing the pick and roll with Amar'e and hitting his outside shots.

Now we have quite possibly the most versatile scorer in the league who is an underrated passer and more athletic than Nash could ever hope to be, not to mention stronger, and...we can't run the pick and roll? Is D'Antoni's philosophy really going to be sitting around and deciding either to chuck 3's or to give the ball to a superstar in isolation? Is that the best he's got?

You ****in' want some, SSj4Wingzero!?

Cause that's not going to win us shit. It's not. Simply put when we go up against the likes of Mike Brown, Tom Thibodeau, Erik Spoelstra, Gregg Popovich, and so on, simply saying "Hey Melo shoot a face up jumper when you get the ball" is not going to cut it. And this was against the Warriors without their best player.

I understand there are going to be growing pains. I get it. The Knicks' attempts to run the Felton-Amar'e pick and roll were awful and at times it looked as if Felton had no idea what was going on. But they worked on it, got better at it, and eventually seemed to get some chemistry down that was only ruined by Felton's terrible shot selection. We need to do something more if this team is going to go anywhere. Simply giving the ball to Melo and asking him to score 35+ points isn't going to work every night. The luxury of having a player like that is the fact that it COULD work on some nights, but it didn't work tonight.

Last of all where's the rebounding? Sixth graders who don't box out have to sit on the bench, where the hell was the boxing out? Where was the offensive rebounding? We grabbed 4 offensive rebounds and one was by Jerome Jordan in garbage time, we got outrebounded by sixteen and were unable to do anything. We have one of the game's best rebounding and defending centers, we have an athletic PF who can grab a decent share of boards, and we have a top SF in basketball. There's no excuse for letting Kwame Brown grab 10 boards in 11 minutes. That's just sad.

Yes, it's early in the season. Yes, it's just one game. But if this team plays like this against any decent team, there's going to be no playoffs for us. Get past the first round? Maybe at a pro-am if these guys can golf.

_____________________________________________________

:aplause:

Anyone who has even a slight interpretation of hoops at a decent level knows what happened tonight in GS.

So, instead of throwing our shit at the players, let's look at the beacon that's guiding them.

Come on, knicksonline, make like SSj4Wingzero and put thought in to your favorite team.

If I may be so bold as to add to this terrific post, I would like to know where STAT and Melo's symbiosis is. Where is their 2 man game?

 

[Sprewell-Houston]

Can't blame D'Antoni for that loss.

Melo had an off night and STAT wasn't effective on offense either.

Even Phil Jackson or Red Holzman can't win when their two best players have off nights.

Oh and btw: Chandler hasn't arrived yet, he has been a non factor in both games.

 

[Crazy⑧s]

Can't blame D'Antoni for that loss.

Melo had an off night and STAT wasn't effective on offense either.

Even Phil Jackson or Red Holzman can't win when their two best players have off nights.

Oh and btw: Chandler hasn't arrived yet, he has been a non factor in both games.

Umm, sorry, did you read what he wrote?

 

[Sprewell-Houston]

Umm, sorry, did you read what he wrote?

Yup, read my post in the Warrior game thread, that's the truth about the Knicks present and future.....you can even quote that.

It's Dolan all the way bro...

 

[InGodsHands]

We can agree that Mike D'Antoni has a way more talented roster right now than he did during his heyday with the Suns, right?

you're kidding right?

Nash/Johnson worse than Douglas/Fields?

Shawn Marion who averaged 20 pts 10 rebs and close to 2 stl and 2 blk?

Boris Diaw a great versatile player who can score, rebound, pass?

Raja Bell a great defender who limited Kobe to like 27 ppg in a season where he averaged 35?

that Phoenix team was much better than what we have right now.

 

[Scipio]

The original post by SSj4Wingzero is one of the very best posts I have ever seen on this forum. It sums everything up perfectly.

We will not do anything special in this league whilst we have D`Antoni as coach, simple as that.

 

[Crazy⑧s]

Yup, read my post in the Warrior game thread, that's the truth about the Knicks present and future.....you can even quote that.

It's Dolan all the way bro...

:lol:

It's Dolan's fault that we lost.

:lol:

 

[TakMan]

Is this all not a tad premature? I don't think there was one Knicks fan that wasn't disgusted with what they witnessed last night. That doesn't, however, make it anything different than what it was. One game of 66. If we start ringing the alarm bells now then what should the Celtics be doing (0-3).

It's easy to blame coaching for everything but the truth is Anthony, Douglas, Stoudamire, and Fields all got good look shots throughout the game and bricked them all. As for Chandler; are we really going to blame his non-existant defence on D'Antoni? Has he suddenly lost 30 years of defensive awareness in one month? Yes the Knicks need a PG and yes they need to vastly improve on tonight's performance. Let's not overreact to this though. I'm no fan of D'Antoni but this loss cannot be attributed to him. I get the feeling the team will be making a statement tonight.

 

[Crazy⑧s]

Is this all not a tad premature? I don't think there was one Knicks fan that wasn't disgusted with what they witnessed last night. That doesn't, however, make it anything different than what it was. One game of 66. If we start ringing the alarm bells now then what should the Celtics be doing (0-3).

It's easy to blame coaching for everything but the truth is Anthony, Douglas, Stoudamire, and Fields all got good look shots throughout the game and bricked them all. As for Chandler; are we really going to blame his non-existant defence on D'Antoni? Has he suddenly lost 30 years of defensive awareness in one month? Yes the Knicks need a PG and yes they need to vastly improve on tonight's performance. Let's not overreact to this though. I'm no fan of D'Antoni but this loss cannot be attributed to him. I get the feeling the team will be making a statement tonight.

We all get that there's a 'too early' aura here, but this was an issue last season, even before the Melo trade, in which our offense looked disgustingly monotonous.

There were some good looks in the game, that is not the underlying issue by a long shot.

 

[TakMan]

They did get 106 past the Celtics though which is no small task. I'm gonna give it a few more games before making my mind up on this one. I think Douglas should be getting far fewer minutes until he learns how to think. Also Chandler needs to step it up NOW and do what he was brought in to do. It's also noteworthy that the team appears to start from scratch each season. How many of our players were on the roster this time last year? The lockout did not aid our quest for chemistry in any way.

Like I said I'm still on the fence for this one. We'll have to wait and see really.

 

[Sprewell-Houston]

:lol:

It's Dolan's fault that we lost.

:lol:

Come on man!

It's Dolan who assembled this roster and hired this coach.

I know you love Stoudemire, but he'll never win a championship, I'm sorry.

It was Dolan who hired Isiah.....and still takes advice from Isiah....

You can't win a championship with this owner, his top priority is beeing in the limelight and generating revenue for MSG.

And btw: I'm not the only one seeing that, there are hundreds of experts out there who have identified the exact same problem.

Not much we can do about it.

MSG needs to sell the Knicks.

 

[Crazy⑧s]

Dude. Don't get me wrong, Dolan is fixated on the cash - clearly.

We're talking specifically about this team achieving optimal performance because, Dolan's greedy misdirection aside, this is the team we have. I think you're missing the point.

We're talking about the way the team plays - wins - loses.

This is a take that I personally agree with. To say that we have bad games because Dolan is all about money is off kilter - in a big way.

Dolan's influence aside, this is and was a good team that has underachieved in an inconsistent fashion since tip off in Toronto last year.

What do you think about that?

 

[Sprewell-Houston]

Dude. Don't get me wrong, Dolan is fixated on the cash - clearly.

We're talking specifically about this team achieving optimal performance because, Dolan's greedy misdirection aside, this is the team we have. I think you're missing the point.

We're talking about the way the team plays - wins - loses.

This is a take that I personally agree with. To say that we have bad games because Dolan is all about money is off kilter - in a big way.

Dolan's influence aside, this is and was a good team that has underachieved in an inconsistent fashion since tip off in Toronto last year.

What do you think about that?

Ok, got your point and glad that you agree with me on Dolan :smokin:

I think we played better team basketball with the 'original' roster last season (Felton, Wilson etc.). Amar'e was the sole superstar and really thrived in that role, Felton was playing like a true ll-Star early on, Chandler was huge for us with his versatility and D'Antoni's offense worked very well with that group.

Having said that, we played absolutely no defense, Gallo suffered from terrible shot selection and Felton fell into a slump (maybe because of his heavy minutes) and never came out of it until the trade.

Yes, we were very inconsistent and lacked 1 or 2 players to really get back into the picture, unfortunately the pressure mounted and with all the Melo-drama Dolan jumped the gun and made a potentially fatal move by trading 3 starters and 1 up and coming center for a superstar that can't coexist (playing-wise) with either Amar'e or D'Antoni.

I think it might have been better to:

a) Keep the original roster (Felton etc.) and let them develop even further and then reevaluate.

b) Trade Felton and the 3 other guys for Chris Paul this offseason and get the perfect point guard for Amar'e and D'Antoni = Paul = Nash wit defense.

c) If you really want Melo here you have to trade Stoudemire, because the two can't co-exist and need two different systems and basketball philosophies (uptempo pick&roll Amar'e vs Half court iso Melo).

That's my view on things bro.

 

[mafra]

Aside from Walker & Jordan, every person affiliated w/ the Knicks disgraced the city of NY last night.

The main culprits for last night's disaster: Our 2 big franchise players. Having one of them should be enough to beat a team like the Warriors. Having both & losing? Inexcusable!

Carmelo & Stoudemire acted as if the ragtag group of wannabes GSW threw on the court last night were just gonna roll over & hand us the win because we were "too good" to compete against. They certainly didn't want to work for the victory. Figured they could go through the motions, be lazy, & at some point (if needed) turn it on and do enough.

Did they mail it in? We're they simply conserving energy for the Lakers tonight? Did they have too good a time over Christmas, had phone in LA on Wed night? Who knows. I do know though... A title is the furthest thing from their minds. They 2 are content getting paid, seeing themselves on ESPN and winning some games. If you want to be great, you do not come out flat the second game of the season.

The two combined for 29 points on 27 shots ? not a good ratio. In all, they missed 19 shots. I think they missed 6 of 10 free throws at one stretch. Now I can live with having an off night. It happens. But their effort was terrible. NO defense, no rebounding, nothing. No motion on offense. Just catch & chuck.

The next problem is Tony D. Mr. Douglas shot 3-of-11, 0-of-5 from the 3-point range. The dude isn't a PG. His decision in the open floor is worse than a 6th grader. He doesn't do anything to set up other players for easy buckets. Can't run an offense. AT MOST, he's a 6th man scoring spark off the bench (& he's not consistent enough to rely on in this role either). After sitting for a while, I saw Douglas enter the game & then force a bad 3 from a terrible spot, even though he's ice cold. I would have taken him right out and his night would have been over.

Then there was Fields. Another horrible showing. As a bench player, he leaves a lot to be desired. As a starting shooting guard? He makes you want to cry. As good as our front court is, knowing we have Douglas-Fields starting cancels out any advantage we might have. Ellis-Smith-Rush scored 52 points. Douglas-Fields-Bibby scored 22. I'm screaming this now: Every night we begin the game in a 30-0 hole b/c Douglas-Bibby-Fields are that bad. They can't score, they can't get our lethal front court the ball, and they play no defense.

As bad as our G are... We'll never win a game win all 3 of our starting front court play poorly on the same night. Chandler was bad. Seemed to get limpy on that foot early, then came foul trouble, but this still not an excuse for allowing Smith drive for uncontested baskets, or for GSW to dominate the boards.

Now let's turn our attention to MIke D'antoni. I can't stand this guy as a head coach. I think he's got zero feel for the game (making adjustments, or designing scoring plays following breaks), I hate his offensive philsophy (I prefer quality or quantity), I wince at his substitution strategies. I so look fwd to next year when anyone else on the planet is our HC instead of this bum. Still...

1) Any HC should have his team ready to play. Granted. Ultimately, you have to blame the coach for his team being this woefully unprepared. Early in the season, a few days off, playing a team sans their best player, knowing you need to win games "you should win," & seeing Lakers were coming up the next night... COACH has to have his team ready to play, & if not he's got to be prepared to shake things up EARLY in game if things not going well.

BUT, Carmelo & Stoudemire are making what? 16 mil this year to play 66 games. If they can't bring the effort each game, then what can you do as a HC?

2) I knew after the 1st NYK was in some big trouble. GSW shot 30% from the field, had like 7 turnovers, missed a few free throws... Yet the score was 23-21. Little did I know 23 points would be our highest quarter total for the evening! Yes, NYK manages 23, 20, 21, 14. Yeah, I was pissed when we scored 43 first half points. Well, we beat that in the 2nd when we posted a 36 point half. WOW.

I thought coach should have benched his starters to prove a point, do anything... something. But then I looked, and what were the options? I think he waited too long to get Lin & Jordon in, but really... Were there any options? We began the 2nd Q with Bibby, Walker, Novak, Amar'e & Balkman. That's sort of shaking things up, right? I might have benched Stoudemire for the 3rd Q or 4th, to save his knees and to send a message... But, at least he posted a double-double, grabbed 2 of our 4 off. rebounds, and until about 7 minutes left... We had a shot to win. Still, when GSW went up 19... I pull ALL starters. Let them sit, view & stew.

3) Our PG totalled 4-18 (0-6 from 3) w/ 5 assists last night. Pathetic. D'ant's offense is based really on 2 things: shoot quickly & let PG dominate ball & create. We don't have shooters & we lack even a viable college PG right now. I don't think Stoudemire-Carmelo-Chandler can co-exist on offense. They never will mesh/gel. Chandler clogs the paint, making it harder for Amar'e to do what he does best: drive & dunk. But who cares, right? We don't have anyone to run the pick & roll, so nobody is passing the ball to Amar'e as he glides down the paint. In 2 games, how many passes have found their way into Amar'e's hands as he took a step & dunked?

I'm disappointed b/c I thought this coach had an offensive mind? He had all lock out to devise something to get these players working together. All he's crafted is ISO plays? Really? Their spacing is terrible. There is no motion. How many times in a half court set have we seen the ball reverse itself a few times, ending in an easy layup as we take advantage of a defensive breakdown? I don't want to see a rookie, or Douglas, leading the team in shot attempts.

IS this just a case where we need Baron Davis? If this is the case, then what fool came up with that plan? Putting all our eggs in the "we hope a vet we like/need gets waived" and he'll be the main focal point of our offense. This was the plan?

Is this a case where Amar'e-Melo-Tyson just need time to get a feel for one another?

Is this just a case of bad luck (Shumpert getting hurt).


All I know, this season looks like 33-33 type campaign. Probably a max potential of a +6 over .500 (39-27) for this squad. If we're lucky, we get Davis playing up to a high level, our front court starts to gel & become fluid, Shumpert develops and we add a player in March... Get a couple lucky bounces & ffew ortiutous whistles come playoffs, & maybe we win a 1st round matchup (or at least force a game 6). But this team can't do much beyond that. Not the way this group plays defense, & certainly not in this offensive system. If coach wants Carmelo & Stoudemire to be gaurds, asking them to be perimeter players... Then all hope is lost.

WE NEED A POST PRESENCE> We need to pound teams in the pain. LOW POST baby all the way. Instead we have 2 of the game's best scoring forwards taking 17-25 foot shots. Just what the other team wants.

 

[Red]

^^^ going to take me a while read the above post.

All I can say is let's wait 20 games before we get critcal. That's 1/3 of the season and I believe a fair time to see if MOA is the culprit.

Time to gel.

Shortened camp and off-season, new philosophies, and injuries lead to too small of a sample to judge.

And although Landry stepped it up a bit, I've seen enough of TD's defense to know he is overrated defensively, and does not belong running the point. And I'll chalk that up to injuries.

 

[skisloper]

I think most of us will agree :

1. Douglas is no a starting PG or PG....he is a bench guy who can come in and do some damage.....That is his role so why not let him play that role and stop kidding ourselves he is our PG..

with that said WHO STARTS AT PG ?

I say lets start there

 

[Weissenberg]

I'd say everything about Dolan, but not that he's greedy. Have you ever heard him complaining he's gotta pay luxury tax again? Or moaning that he's gotta pay Billups $14M despite not having him around?

 

[Sprewell-Houston]

That's agreat post mafra!

I agree with you on almost everything.

After over 30 games together as Knickerbockers...and a record of below .500 (including the Playoffs)....the question is:

Can Amar'e and Melo really co-exist?

The problem is, they both need completely different philosophies to excell.
Melo is a half court and isolation guy, Amar'e is a pick and roll - uptempo guy.

I think combos that work well are:

Amar'e and Chris Paul
Melo and Dwight Howard

Amar'e and Melo = :argue: maybe?

They're not compatible it seems.

 

[Toons]

we win, player fault, we lose, coaches fault. lmao at u silly knick fans, we have this same exact argument every single fuvkin year......its like u guys never grow up. thing is, ur so retarded that ur arguing with the same people. when are you going to get it through your thick skulls that its a shared responsibility between players and coaches for wins and losses. a more intellegent argument would be, who held MORE responsibility for a loss, not placing blame and pointing fingers. There are soooo many plays in basketball, i watched stat give up on plays, i watched melo just walk around, i watched the entire knick team act like the heat and stand like statues when melo calls an ISO. Did anyone sing praises for MDA in the win against boston? no right?
we lost because, in addition to coaching ills, douglas cant gaurd pg's, our team got lethargic after half time, amare and melo were off, tyson chandler had 0 blocks, and we had little bench production.

silver lining, jerome jordan got sum burn, and if he is as good as he was in serbia, i would make him split time EVENLY with tyson C.

 

[Red]

That's agreat post mafra!

I agree with you on almost everything.

After over 30 games together as Knickerbockers...and a record of below .500 (including the Playoffs)....the question is:

Can Amar'e and Melo really co-exist?

The problem is, they both need completely different philosophies to excell.
Melo is a half court and isolation guy, Amar'e is a pick and roll - uptempo guy.

I think combos that work well are:

Amar'e and Chris Paul
Melo and Dwight Howard

Amar'e and Melo = :argue: maybe?

They're not compatible it seems.

Well you better get use to them because they are going nowhere.

Can they coexist? Really? Why wouldn't they be able to?
Before we panic, let's wait at leas 20games in to analyze.

Not enough TOTAL team time to gel yet.

If anyone is to be ridiculed it's MOA, and even he needs time to adjust.

The best we could say is MOA isn't the type of coach that will target his player's weakness and coach him up.

If that were the case, we wouldn't still see STAT dribble-drive TOWARD the baseline with 2 to 3 defenders draped over him... and still doesn't pass. Shm. :shrug: