Originally Posted by MSGKnickz33
Exactly...its Curry's team. He's been selfish for not being professional, staying and shape and taking responsibility for leading this team.
Do you watch the Knicks at all? Marbury found Curry 3 times with SPECTACULAR passes in one game. Marbury does most of these things you listed.
Originally Posted by knicklover
Marbury has handed this team to Curry and Crawford, calling him selfish is IGNORANT..and a statement with no base of truth.
Its Curry's fault because he's not passing it to open guys on double teams and when he does pass, our perimeter guys force the shot because Curry has terrible timing offensively. This is his team, remember?
Marbury left Minnesota because it was far away from home, not KG.
I don't know know any shooting guard's who average 8 assist for their career. Who ever they are, they must be pretty good.
Like I said, its not like Marbury is averaging 5 assist a game off bull****, when he's on his game, he can give you 8-9 and create a lot of openings for his teammates.
STOP TRYING TO TAKE CREDIT AWAY FROM MARBURY'S NUMBERS AND ABILITY. lol @ this theory of "lucky assist", lets see you guys step on the court and average 8 assist for your career, you make it sound so EASY when majority of the men in the NBA have never done this. To be consistent through your career and be one of the league's assist man kills any bias argument that Marbury is "selfish" and "has no vision.
Marbury has been playing solid this d, and was playing great defense last season.
Great Post, Marbury is the man and whoever disagrees have to hear it from you and me the assistant, the rza, whatever you or they wanna call me its all good. Fact is they can kill me and I'll still be in my grave defending Marbury, he went from being overrated (I'll admit it) to being criminally underrated like AZ. Some haters are willing to admit that hes still got allota skill and I respect them more then the ones who say hes washed up cuz thats just ignorance with a capital I. I got your back Metro with these Marbury Haters, F*ck em all!!!!
Originally Posted by metrocard
Marbury is definitely top 10 PG in the NBA, but let's stop right there and evaluate the things that actually define a good PG.
Marbury is great at putting pressure on the opposing teams defense and drawing fouls.
Marbury is in my opinion a clutch player if you need quick points at the end of games.
Marbury has great quickness and strength.
Marbury doesn't neccisarily make his teamates better or run many plays during games. I watch every Knicks game and I do see him make a strong effort to create plays for his teammates, but its sporadic. Marbury has the ability to do this consistently every game, but until he has full confidence in his teammates it just won't happen.
Marbury is a scorer first and pg second. Its really unfair to compare him to top point guards in the league because he's basically a SG trapped in a PG body. My biggest knock on Marbury is that he is incapable of consistently scoring when needed and being a playmaker at the same time. He's either going to score 25-30 points or have 8-9 assists, but not both.
This post is not to trash him, I just want to make it clear that I'm a fan of Marbury and just wish he was more consistent.
Marbury just needs to be Marbury, shooting guards dont average 8 assists a game. Marbury needs to go back to his roots and do what he did before Larry Clown coached this team and convinced everyone that Marbury is not a point guard. You cant try to coach Marbury, you gotta let him be himself and give him freedom.
How is Marbury suppose to make his teammates better? Steve Nash and Jason Kidd would retire trying to make this group of players better. When your starting 2guard and smallforward cant hit a shot, what do you expect?
I look at Marbury as a point guard. If anyone is a shooting guard in a point guards body that would be the overrated Tony Parker. He is has been molded into the Spurs system but put him on the Knicks and everyone would be wishin we still had Marbury. Parker would average 3 or 4 assists per game and go home everynight and dream about playin in San Antonio again.
The Knicks need an agile 6'11" or 7ft shotblocker that can rebound and defend playing both center and PF(someone not named M.Camby cause we won't get him back).A shotblocker would mask most of our defensive problems.
George M. I agree with what you just said. That is the single biggest problem with this team, no shot blocking at all. You need to either play a good team defense or have a really good defensive big man like Dwight or Camby to make it to the playoffs and we dont have that.
I think the reality is that you like Marbury a lot (for whatever reason) and/or fail to grasp what really makes a PG great (as opposed to just adequate). Stats DO NOT measure intangibles.
Originally Posted by metrocard
I didn't see all his games for NJ or Minnesota. He may have been a lot better in those days when he was younger. I have watched him a lot over the last few seasons in NY (especially the last two seasons. I only missed a few games). He's a competent and talented player, but he is light years away from the elite PGs in the game that ADD significant value to the players around them.
There is a difference between calling him adequate and saying he stinks or something. I never said the latter. I (and others) simply pointed out his shortcomings to the people that seem to love him beyond his actual ability.
By the way, if anything, I think last night proved beyond a shadow of doubt what I've been saying about Curry all year. He's playing as well this year as he was last year. His stats are down because his minutes are down, his touches are down, and the Knicks outside shooting may actually be even worse this year. That's largely a function of Zach being on the team. The last 2 nights Zach was suspended and got very few minutes and Curry's numbers went way up.
Zach even impacts Curry's rebound numbers. There are a limited number of rebound opportunities per game. You can only get one when someone misses a shot. There are occasions when an opponent misses and both Zach and Curry are in a position to get the board, but Zach is more aggressive about it and gets it. That's one rebound for Zach and one less for Curry vs. last year. Take Zach out of the lineup, and Curry's numbers this year (points and rebounds) would be as good or better than last year and a lot of this "hating" would vanish.
Marbury was the best player for the Knicks from last season, and has been the best player on this team for the last 3 years. Pay your respect, do your research, and reread the history he's had here; I'm not going to waste my time and outline and educate you over with this Marbury bull****. He's the LEAST of our problems and by far the best PG on this team and by far the best two way player on this team. Marbury takes no blame for this season because it's been an up and down roller coaster for Stephon; I expect and I PREDICT Marbury to be back his regular playing ways in a week. Once that starts, don't be surprised to see the Knicks preform better on a regular basis. Another "I told you so" situation.
Originally Posted by knicklover
Last season, Curry was still BAD. With all the touches he had, he averaged over 3.5 turnovers and couldn't even average 20 points per game. He's one dimensional and a kills ball movement. He was the worst defender, decision maker, and DEFENDER at his position. As good as he was in the paint, he worse at all the other categories.
This is the NBA, you have to move the ball, be able to score and create fast break points. Circling the team around Curry is really the worst way to trying to "win" in the NBA.
This is WHY Isiah set all this up. He's trying to lose in New York; thats his goal and focus and nothing else will stop him.
Curry isn't a rebounder. He doesn't fight for rebounds or box out. Randolph, Lee, and Balkman do that. Thats why they average a lot of rebounds. If you're trying to label Curry as a rebounder, I suggest you do more research about Curry before you try to give invalid information on Curry in this forum.
Only thing worse than the Knicks losing is Isiahsexuals arguing the root of the losing is not the problem and is still spraying the same bull**** they've said the season before; even after all this losing they still at it and will never get it; just continue with this fantasy that Crawford = Jesus, Isiah = God, Curry = Mary.
Originally Posted by metrocard
With all due respect, you should actually read what people are saying before responding. You would stop wasting time refuting things I never said.
I never said Marbury was a bad player or even a major problem for the Knicks. All I've ever said is that if you look beyond the stats, there are intangible downsides that some people refuse to recognize despite the NEON signs screaming and shouting about them to anyone that watches the Knicks with an UNBIASED EYE. He's our PG and we can live and win with him, but he's not an elite PG - PERIOD - even he is one of our better players. If anything, the fact that he is one of better players tells us how bad the rest of the team is.
As to Curry, I never said he was great rebounder. I said his points and rebounds are both down this year because of Zach. Curry is getting fewer touches, fewer minutes, and even fewer rebounds per 48 minutes because Zach is a "superior" rebounder and takes a few away from him by being better at it. This is almost indisputable. It's not even worthy of discussion. Just look at the stats.
Curry did not average 20 last year. He averaged 19.5. But if you recall, he started the year with a lower average (around 16-18 PPG) and slowly worked it up to 19.5 over the season by averaging a little over 20 for an extended period of time. He did that DESPITE being double and triple teamed constantly. So he was playing 20+ PPG ball for a long time after a slow start.
It was obvious last year that what the Knicks needed was an outside shooter to relieve some of the pressure on Curry. Instead, we stayed with Qrich and he's even worse this year. Plus Marbury has been out and he's at least adequate from the 3 point line - though not as good as Nash and others from outside. So we lost even more outside shooting. That's a problem for Curry.
In addition, there ae SEVERAL reasons he has so many turnovers. One is simply his lack of skill at handling the ball, but the other is that HE IS GETTING DOUBLE AND TRIPLE TEAMED AL THE TIME. So he is way more likely to get stripped etc....
That's why it is so critical to get a serious outside shooter at SF if we stay with Curry. Either he or the outside shooter at SF will immediately get better because the opponent can't double team both of them. If they try to double Curry, there will be legit outside threat killing them and if they don't double Curry, he'll score 25 per night with a very high field goal percentage. His FG % is already among the leaders because he's so effective inside despite being doubled.
Stats are misleading. You have to look at what is creating the stats.
Again, Curry is not without serious defensive and other flaws, but he is WAAAAAY better than people that are hating on him lately think and every GM out there knows it.
With Zach out, he proved it and he didn't even have the help of great shooting SF to relieve the pressure on him.
If you consider an elite point guard to be a top 5 pg then no, Marbury is not one of the 5 best. You dont need a top 5 point guard to win a championship.
Top 5 Point guards
When was the last time any of these players won a championship? Never, shmuck. Tony Parker is the most overrated point guard in the league but he is a team player and hes surrounded by team players. You have to be fair to Marbury, the last time he was surrounded by team players Amare Stoudamire was a rookie. Let me ask you this *******, who ever said he was an elite point guard? I believe the last time I checked Metro said he was a top 15. With all due respect, you should actually read what people are saying before responding.
If you ask me hes a step down from the elite point guards as proven in 2 games earlier season where he played just as well as Deron Williams and check out Steve Nash's shooting percentages from the game where Marburys pops passed. He can play with them, its not like they're "light years ahead of him." Im really gettin sick of all the hate directed at Marbury, its gettin old.
knicklover, theres no question Marbury was playing at the "elite PG" level in his first season for the Knicks.
20 and 9 and a playoff appearance is good, especially compared to what we're seeing now.
This is what I'm trying to get to you, Marbury is well capable playing at a high level; its just a matter of what situation he's in. If he's playing with two out of shape big men who can defend at all and a ***** who can't shoot at SG, you're not going to expect a lot of production because the lack of assets and help for Steph.
Why did we go away from our winning ways and head into a direction that only promised 40 minutes for two losers like Crawford and Curry? This is when the losing started taking place.
We know stupid, we've watched the Knicks before. You're saying nothing new to us. We've seen Curry try to score on 3 people and turnover. This is why Curry needs to be out. He's as bad as a decision maker as Jamal Crawford, basically the Crawford version of the center position. Scores a lot of points, but at a high cost and risk, with inefficient results.
You said they are several reasons why Curry turns the ball over but only named two simple ones. lol, choose your words better.
You're hanging on to the stats too much and not paying enough attention to the games.
If you understood the situation you would Curry does a terrible job getting in position in TIME; he takes a while to get in position and that takes a lot of time from the clock. There are many instances where Curry would have the ball with 5 seconds left on the shot clock and has to force a bad shot.
The reason for this? Curry has been out of shape and is one of the worst conditioned centers in the NBA. The fact that Isiah still starts him is a JOKE.
A REAL COACH would bench his player till he's in shape and ready to ball. Curry should be put on the IR until he conditions himself better and takes basketball more SERIOUSLY.
The fact we're building around this fat slob tells everything about Isiah Thomas. He's trying to lose as many games as possible for the Knicks. Having an out of shape player as your "Franchise" player is the biggest joke in sports. You don't see Kobe Bryant or Kevin Garnett coming into training camp poorly conditioned and out of shape. These guys are the hardest working basketball players in the world; thats why they're so good and thats why they're playing for playoffs teams. They motivated themselves and the TEAM and take LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBILITY making sure the players welly conditionted as they are.
When you have Curry as the main guy, you send a message to the team that conditioning is not important. Look at how bad Randolph and Richardson look, I never seen these two this out of shape.
Curry is not only a cancer on the court, but off the court. He has no passion or interest in being a hard working basketball. He just wants to get by, and this is why Chicago dumped his ass.
Once we get Isiah OUT, the first thing the new GM is going to do is dump Curry; this is another of my prediction that I'm confident enough to say will happened. Curry is the LAST player you want as a Franchise player. I would fight him for being so fat and stealing money. He's not worth his salary, at all.
Metro and MSG
1. I never said you can't win a championship with Marbury at PG, but I have said that IMO he would have to be the 3rd option. I say that because IMO, his game goes down at CRUNCH TIME. That's what seperates winning teams from losing teams at the championship level - Performance UNDER PRESSURE.
2. I agree that Marbury would earn better stats and look a lot better today if he was surrounded by better players. He is hurt by those around him just ike Curry.
3. Personally, I don't think he's top 15 anymore. He was a couple of years ago for sure and was top 5 before that. It wouldn't make much sense to make a list though because we'd just disagree about that too.
He's simply not the player he used to be and he was flawed to begin with because of the tangibles. So when people point to all these wonderful stats in his youth to defend him now, I think they are both failing to understand that stats can be very misleading and that he's not that guy anymore anyway. He's older.
That's not "hating" on him or not "giving him his props" etc.... It's an unbiased view of where we are at the PG position right now. It's not our biggest problem, but it's not a strength at all.
As far as Curry goes, I keep agreeing that he's a flawed player. We are disagreeing about how flawed and how bad.
You seem to recognize that Marbury would do better if he had some better players around him, but fail to appreciate that if we had one decent outside shooter or a defensive PF it would help out Curry a lot.
If we actually had two or three good shooters like most good teams, it would help Curry out tremendously. Plus he is 24. He's not in his 30s and on his way down like Marbury. There's at least some hope that he can improve and get into better condition with a new coaching staff etc....
That's why I feel compelled to defend him. He's not a hopeless case or the worst center around. He's a legitimate 20 and 7 guy that needs some good outside shooting, a tough defensive minded PF along side of him to offset his weaknesses, and a coach that can get his respect and force him to get in shape.
Zach is not that guy at PF. Crawford and Qrich are atrocious outside shooters on too many nights. Marbury is only a mediocre outside shooter and drops a notch at Crunch Time. Isiah is a horror show in every way. That's a formula for maximizing Curry's weaknesses and minimizing his contributions.
In both cases (Marbury and Curry) and am trying to drag you guys to the UNBIASED middle. In one case I am pointing out the weaknesses (Marbury) because you guys refuse to recognize them and in the other I am pointing out the strengths (Curry) because you refuse to acknowledge those.
Curry is not as bad as you guys think and Marbury is not as good as you guys think.
This is a good point. We saw that Curry had a good game when Randolph was suspended. May be he's not as bad as every one makes him out to be. He's a low post scorer, that's what we brought him in for right? Did Curry play defense in Chicago? May be Curry and Randolph are both good players but don't mesh together. Marbury on the other hand isn't the point guard that can take us to the promise land. He's the shooting guard that can take us to the promise land.
Originally Posted by knicklover
Statement one, you can say the same about Crawford and Curry. They're not good number one options, same with Randolph.
This season, you're right. Marbury isn't top 15 right now.
If we're going to rebuild either Marbury or Curry, we need shooters. Isiah didn't do a good job getting shooters for this team.
But I can't debate anymore, Knickslover laid the facts on the table, dinner was served.
But this thread can't die! I will be back for another debate. Peace.
Originally Posted by knicklover
You cant prove that he doesnt perform well under pressure, I cant prove that he does and only a couple of clutch shots by Marbury come to my head. He hit a 3 against San Antonio to win a game for Pheonix when he played for them and more recently his layup he hit to win the game against the Jazz. You really tryin to prove your point and its annoying me because you keep statin things that were never said. There were games last year where he carried this team on his back and if you watched before his fathers death he was really startin to return to last years form again. You clearly are biased and you have sumthin against Marbury.
Im askin you to name 15 point guards better then Marbury. Im gonna name all the point guards who I think are better then him:
Sorry Tony Parker, if you were on the Knicks you would suck. Some of these players are combo guards who shouldnt even be on this list. I listed 8 point guards. Some might say the following are better then Marbury although I disagree:
Jameer Nelson (hell no)
I really dont think you watch the Knicks. Im not tryin to point to his youth to defend him, all I gotta do is point to last year and the defense that he played. He kept playing better and better last year until injuries finally caught up with him.
Here are some impressive games from last year:
Dec. 27, 2006 vs Detroit
Jan 5, 2007 vs Seattle
Marbury continued to play well for the rest of January and February. In March, he once again became Starbury
March 2 - 34pts
March 3 - 38pts
March 6 - 40pts
March 14 - 31pts
March 26 - 32pts
March 30 - 43pts
April 4 - 30pts
He scored all these points while playin arguable the best defense of any point guard during this period and settin up his teammates, playin like a true point guard/team player. I believe he also had problems with his knee throughout all of March, why do I remember things like this? Because I actually watch the Knicks. The only person who is biased here would be you, stickin up for Curry. He would not benefit from having a good 3pt shooter on this team because he cant pass out of double teams but you are too biased and you get caught up in the hype.
To quote Shyne, "rather look at the facts and not the hype, Like who got shot and who got knifed." You really came back with nothing worth responding to, I chose to this time but you better come back with something good if you want me to respond again. In some ways, Lilman Bklyn does a better job of arguing his points then you do. Alot of people got bad things to say about Marbury and you like the fool you are listen to them. Go by what you see and watch, not by what you hear. Oh yeah, thats right you dont watch the Knicks. I just educated you. I gave you nothin but facts and you come with bull**** like:
"He's simply not the player he used to be and he was flawed to begin with because of the tangibles. So when people point to all these wonderful stats in his youth to defend him now, I think they are both failing to understand that stats can be very misleading and that he's not that guy anymore anyway. He's older."
This is all bull**** right here and proves you dont watch the Knicks. Saying hes simply not the player he used to be would refer to at least a couple of years ago but I proved that just last year he played better then ever. I recall Knicks legend Walt Clyde Frazier saying that Marbury played the best basketball of his career the second half of last season. I agree with this because not only did he score but he made his teammated better and was nothing short of incredible on defense.
If I was in charge of this website I would have you permanently banned, you dont get facts to prove your biased points. And then you comin at me and Metro callin us biased, man **** you. You go with the majority but most of the time the majority is wrong. Dont buy into the bull**** that you hear the analysts like Stephen A Smith say, its all bull**** they just sayin it cuz they know people will listen. Be your own person and have your own opinions.