I like this thread... I think overall that the luster is off international players (finally)... it was another fad (kinda like the HS player fad before the age limit)... everyone tries to be smarter than the next GM... and some guys (ahem IT) outsmart themselves... also, being drafted in the top 15 does not mean that you are expected to be a starter Metro... Not picking sides with either camp really... but what constitutes a bust? failing to meet expectations? Failing the league? I think a bust should be any player who was taken when someone more talented was still available...
that being said... I don't think it's fair to call guys a bust who haven't been in the league for at least 5 years (Kobe, KG, JO didn't make an impact right away)... Let's analyze 2003 (international players in bold)...
1 James, LeBronLeBron James* (SF) USA Cleveland Cavaliers St. Vincent - St. Mary High School (Akron, OH) - Kinda disproved the whole age limit thing in the year of its inception
2 Miličić, Darko Darko Miličić (F/C) SCG Detroit Pistons (from Memphis) Hemofarm Vrsac (Serbia and Adriatic League) - BUST Metro's right about his shotblocking, but he's a lazy **** and Larry Brown crushed his ego...
3 Anthony, CarmeloCarmelo Anthony* (SF) USA Denver Nuggets Syracuse - Never missed the playoffs
4 Bosh, ChrisChris Bosh* (F/C) USA Toronto Raptors Georgia Tech - Top 10 PF
5 Wade, DwyaneDwyane Wade* (SG) USA Miami Heat Marquette - Led team to Championship
6 Kaman, Chris Chris Kaman (C) Germany Los Angeles Clippers Central Michigan - Top 15 C
7 Hinrich, Kirk Kirk Hinrich (PG) USA Chicago Bulls Kansas - Had a bad year last season, plays solid defense and can run a team effectively
8 Ford, T.J. T. J. Ford (PG) USA Milwaukee Bucks (from Atlanta) Texas - Being traded doesn't mean you're a bust (billups was traded like 5 times before landing in DET), sometimes, PGs need the right system to thrive (see Nash, Steve)
9 Sweetney, Michael Michael Sweetney (PF) USA New York Knicks Georgetown - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
10 Hayes, Jarvis Jarvis Hayes (F/G) USA Washington Wizards Georgia - BUST
11 Piétrus, Mickaël Mickaël Piétrus (G/F) FRA Golden State Warriors Pau-Orthez (France) - Had trouble getting off the bench in GS... solid Defender and athleticism at the 2 spot
12 Collison, Nick Nick Collison (PF) USA Seattle SuperSonics Kansas - BUST
13 Banks, Marcus Marcus Banks (PG) USA Memphis Grizzlies (from Houston, traded to Boston) UNLV - BUST
14 Ridnour, Luke Luke Ridnour (PG) USA Seattle SuperSonics (from Milwaukee) Oregon - solid, not spectacular starting PG... would be effective off bench somewhere
15 Gaines, Reece Reece Gaines (F/G) USA Orlando Magic Louisville - BUST
16 Bell, Troy Troy Bell (PG) USA Boston Celtics (traded to Memphis) Boston College - BUST
17 Cabarkapa, Zarko arko Čabarkapa (SF) SCG Phoenix Suns Budućnost Podgorica (Serbia and Montenegro and Adriatic League) - BUST
18 West, DavidDavid West* (PF) USA New Orleans Hornets Xavier - Damn near slapped Dirk during the playoffs... a horse
19 Pavlovic, Aleksandar Sasha Pavlović (F/G) SCG Utah Jazz Budućnost Podgorica (Serbia and Montenegro and Adriatic League) - Stereotypical Euro, can score from anywhere, can't defend a photo
20 Jones, Dahntay Dahntay Jones (SG) USA Boston Celtics (from Philadelphia, traded to Memphis) Duke - BUST
21 Diaw, Boris-Riffiod Boris Diaw-Riffiod (SG) FRA Atlanta Hawks (from Indiana) Pau-Orthez (France) - Shriveled last playoffs, but can handle, rebound, pass and score from the 3 or 4 spot
22 Planinić, Zoran Zoran Planinić (G/F) CRO New Jersey Nets Cibona Zagreb (Croatia and Adriatic League) - BUST
23 Outlaw, Travis Travis Outlaw (SF) USA Portland Trail Blazers Starkville HS (Starkville, MS) - started to improve last season with his young Blazer core
24 Cook, Brian Brian Cook (PF) USA Los Angeles Lakers Illinois - BUST
25 Delfino, Carlos Carlos Delfino (SG) ARG Detroit Pistons Unión de Santa Fe (Argentina) - Struggled for minutes in DET before a decent season in TOR
26 Ebi, Ndudi Ndudi Ebi (SF) GBR Minnesota Timberwolves Westbury Christian HS (Houston, TX) - Haven't seen enough of this guy to know either way
27 Perkins, Kendrick Kendrick Perkins (C) USA Memphis Grizzlies (from Sacramento via Orlando, traded to Boston) Ozen HS (Beaumont, TX) - found his grove working alongside KG, PP and Allen
28 Barbosa, Leandro Leandro Barbosa (SG) BRA San Antonio Spurs (traded to Phoenix) Bauru Tilibra (Brazil) - the Brazilian blur... stunk it up last playoffs (like Diaw) former 6th man of the year
29 Howard, JoshJosh Howard* (F/G) USA Dallas Mavericks Wake Forest - my NBA hero... DTown's most versatile and effective player (except last playoffs)
so out of the 9 international players taken (not every international player is European)... only 4 (Pietrus, Diaw, Barbosa, Pavlovic) are not busts after 5 years in the league... 12 of the 20 american players were not busts... 60% of the American first round and 45% of the international players taken in the first round were busts... and this was a DEEP draft... one of the best in the last 20 years...
It doesn't matter where you start off... so much is required to help a player reach his potential... experience coming in... maturity... work ethic... team leadership... expectations... I think if you check draft history, you'll notice a similar trend of 45% success rates for every draft class... or about 25 players from any given draft year will have successful NBA careers
Top 15 picks are projected to be starters, if not, they would be 2nd round picks.
Darko is a bust, but he's an average starter.
Piétrus is a NBA starter and a great defender, stupid offensive player though.(Funny how everyone says Euros are compared to Dirk, Peja, and etc, why isn't Pietrus?)
Cabarkapa is a bust, no ****.
Pavlovic is a starter on one of the best teams in the East. He actually has become a good defender under Brown and Cleveland.
Diaw and Barbosa were steals.
This was America's best draft class in recent years, so its pretty unfair for you to bring this up and ignore the other draft classes I brought up.
But you still make good points, so I'll give you dap for that.
Sorry I didnt respond so quickly...like loose change over here...I actually have a life.
Peja...playing in the Greek league? Man that's like saying your the true National College Football Champions...but ohh wait Division II. Funny how his career playoff scoring average sinks terribly...from his regular season one.
Dirk Nowitski helped his team reach First German division? Too bad with all those leadership skills it could not equate to an NBA championship...when you had more talent, better players, younger players...and more in depth of a bench when you were the CLEAR FAVORITE. And then meanwhile same thing happens again..and you lost to an undersized team in Oakland..and kicks your ass all over the court.
Pau Gasol dominant in the ABC league? Once again, not real competition. Where was all this flair and great skills in the Finals? Kobe had to carry that **** by himself since they made the playoffs. And he was supposed to be the missing link to earn Phil another title.
Andrei Kirilenko...what have you done for me lately? Not a damned thing. You have no fire, no aggressivness. You have mounds of talent on the team, and yet everynight don't give it everything you got to help the team win. Maybe your wife is letting you have too many threesomes and you can't focus on basketball.
Manu Ginobil best SG behind Kobe? I'd say he plays on the most talented team in the West behind Kobe. If he did not have Tim Duncan to lean on...then you'd be able to talk. Because if you take away Duncan...he's not the SG you start the franchise with tomorrow as your starter. Maybe your 6th man. But not your starting SG.
Yao Ming just can't never seem to stay healthy enough to do anything noteworthy in the playoffs. Yes, grant you he has the numbers...but outside of that. Once the regular season is over nothing. And yeah, he's getting injured as per his contract states that he must leave Tracy McGrady to carry this club by himself when it counts.
Tony Parker..once again see Tim Duncan. Can name several PG's ahead of him now. Then again his game ain't been the same since he got married, which is always a jinx. So he get's a slight pass.
Yi Jianlian...jury maybe still out. But he hasn't had the Yao Ming atleast type impact in the regular season...you'd expect from what was he a 6th overall pick?? 3pt range..and all that don't mean **** in the NBA for a CENTER. That position is about banging and controlling the paint...ain't enough meat on that boy to handle it. Mehmet Okur has similar skills...and no one considers him a dominant Center just a well versed power forward who can shoot the 3 ball.
Shaq hasn't been TOP 5 for a while since he left L.A. really...but at the end of they day you know he's going to give you what he has got and not disappear like some of these European players, who give you all 82 games...but cant get it together for 16.
Luis Scola folded in the playoffs this past season. Shot damn near 10% less in the playoffs. The **** is up with that? And don't tell me that not significant to you. You are part of the same pussies..I mean posse that said having Marbury give us another 11% was ****ing huge!
Andrew Bogut...hasn't had a real impact. To be a #1 OVERALL pick....seriosuly even Milwaukee still ain't feeling him. Chris Paul has accomplished more than him...and they were in the same draft. Deron Williams, Francisco Garcia, and Monta Ellis..all taken after this loser.
You ain't wrap up ****. I'll be back with more.
You always say the same thing.
He "folds in the playoffs"
First of all, we know you're unemployed. Only unemployed people try to convince others online that they work; because its important for them.
What do you know about the Greek League, you *******?
Nothing, so shut it.
Dirk lead his team to the NBA finals and has been the best player on one of the best teams in the team in the last 5-7 years. He's succeeded more than 95% of the players in the NBA and is a top 5-10 player.
You're hating is played out and repetitive.
Once again, you know nothing about international basketball.
ACB is the toughest league outside of the NBA and Euroleague. Most scouts would agree, as well as many NBA GM's and Scouts.
NCAA basketball isn't even on the level of Euro-League.
Didn't a Euroleague team beat the Raptors last time?
Lakers made the Finals without their center prospect.
Boston was just too good, regardless. Lakers wouldn't be in the finals without Gasol.
"what have you done for me lately? "
You sound like a faggot in need of ****.
AK47 is still a good player, one of the best role players in the NBA.
Ginobili is the best SG in the NBA behind Kobe Byrant.
He's unselfish and can still dominate a game. He can play many roles for rip and everyone in the NBA knows he could put up superstar numbers if given Crawford type minutes.
For you to question Ginobili makes you a ****ing moron. He's suceeded in every league he's been.
Per 36 minutes he averages
over 5 rpg
over 5 apg
+ Great defense.
Ginobili is a winner and one of the most exciting guys to watch in the league.
The **** you hating for? Did a bunch of Euros run a train on your mother to some weird ass Euro techo?
Calm the **** down with your emotional post, there is zero facts in your post.
Yao was definitely worth the number one pick, unlike a couple of other American bust pointed out in this thread.
Parker, top 10 PG.
Yi isn't a center, he's a SF/PF. Do your research.
Okur was a former all star, shut up.
Scola was a rookie and still averaged 14 and 9 for the Rockets.
Scola will be 15 and 10 player in the NBA, just like he was in EUROPE. Its funny because he'll average better numbers in the NBA than Europe.
NBA defense is more soft, where Euro has war-like rugged defense which reminds you off 80's NBA basketball.
Andrew Bogut just got signed to a nice fat contract by the Bucks, what you mean they aint feeling him?
5-yr/$60mm Guaranteed + $12.5mm possible bonuses
Could this be the first post in Knicksonline history where a poster is 100% wrong on everything he wrote? I think we have a winner.
You just wasted my time, everything you wrote gets killed by my first post.
Originally Posted by metrocard
I only chose 03 cuz it was the closest draft class that qualified (5 years or more)... plus I didn't have time to research the other draft classes... but I know you get the point cuz you been trying to school these cats about it this whole time... regardless of where someone is born... talent, work ethic, maturity level, experience all play a greater role than country of origin...
and the top 15 players may be traditionally expected to be starters... but some times... teams drafting that high are drafting based on need and might be looking for a quality 6th man (don't overestimate the value of starting) or take the best available talent regardless of fit... sometimes... that talent doesn't fit a system... etc... but I do agree that the expectations of these picks is higher than the rest...
Since 03 was so exceptional... let's look at 2000... one of the worst drafts in the history of the draft (it should be noted that Mike Redd, Jake Voshkul and Marko Jaric all went in the 2nd round...
1 Kenyon Martin (PF) United States New Jersey Nets Cincinnati Sr. - BUST... should give JKidd 80% of that DEN contract... injuries, a ****ty attitude and a lack of a post game killed him...
2 Stromile Swift (PF/C) United States Vancouver Grizzlies LSU Fr. - BUST
3 Darius Miles (SF/SG) United States Los Angeles Clippers East St. Louis HS (East St. Louis, IL) HSSr. - BUST... had some shine for a little while with the Clippers there... blew his knee out and currently out of work...
4 Marcus Fizer (PF) United States Chicago Bulls Iowa State Jr. - BUST... HAHAHAAHAHA
5 Mike Miller (SF/SG) United States Orlando Magic Florida So. - Rookie of the year... a deadly scorer... can light it up...
6 DerMarr Johnson (SG/SF) United States Atlanta Hawks Cincinnati Fr. - BUST... car accident ruined what was otherwise developing into a solidly mediocre career...
7 Chris Mihm (C/PF) United States Chicago Bulls (traded to Cleveland for Jamal Crawford and cash) Texas Jr. - BUST... a number 7? for Chris Mihm... I remember there was talk that he would be a top 3 pick before the draft too...
8 Jamal Crawford (SG) United States Cleveland Cavaliers (traded to Chicago with cash for Chris Mihm) Michigan Fr. - the kid's not a bust (no matter what metro says)... a revolving door of coaches and philosophies has stymied his development... would be "underrated" as a 3rd option or 6th man...
9 Joel Przybilla (C) United States Houston Rockets (traded to Milwaukee for Jason Collier and a future first-round pick) Minnesota So. - BUST
10 Keyon Dooling (SG) United States Orlando Magic (from Denver, traded to L.A. Clippers with Corey Maggette, Derek Strong and cash for a future first-round pick) Missouri So. - has struggled to find a niche/consistent playing time during his career... currently seeking another contract...
11 Jérome Moïso (PF) France Boston Celtics UCLA So. - BUST
12 Etan Thomas (PF/C) United States Dallas Mavericks Syracuse Sr. - BUST... good locker room guy though... well spoken athlete...
13 Courtney Alexander (SG) United States Orlando Magic (traded to Dallas for a future first-round pick and cash) Fresno State Sr. - BUST
14 Mateen Cleaves (PG) United States Detroit Pistons Michigan State Sr. - BUST
15 Jason Collier (C) United States Milwaukee Bucks (traded with future first-round pick to Houston for Joel Przybilla) Georgia Tech Sr. - INC (I don't feel right rating a corpse)
16 Hedo Türkoğlu (SF) Turkey Sacramento Kings Efes Pilsen (Turkey) 1979 - battled with Peja for the starting spot in Sac before winning one with Pop and the Spurs... currently the MIP in Orl...
17 Desmond Mason (SF/SG) United States Seattle SuperSonics Oklahoma State Sr. - BUST... winning a slam dunk championship don't count...
18 Quentin Richardson (SF/SG) United States Los Angeles Clippers (from Toronto via Atlanta, Philadelphia and New York) DePaul So. - was productive the majority of his career... busted with the Knicks though...
19 Jamaal Magloire (C) Canada Charlotte Hornets Kentucky Sr. - had a couple productive seasons... never became the beast he had the talent to be...
20 Speedy Claxton (PG) United States Philadelphia 76ers Hofstra Sr. - BUST... derailed by injuries
21 Morris Peterson (SF/SG) United States Toronto Raptors (from Minnesota) Michigan State Sr. - did you see him lighting it up in NOLA?
22 Donnell Harvey (SF) United States New York Knicks (traded with John Wallace to Dallas for Erick Strickland and Pete Mickeal) Florida Fr. - BUST HAHAHAHAAHAHA
23 DeShawn Stevenson (SG) United States Utah Jazz (from Miami) Washington Union HS (Fresno, CA) HSSr. - finally coming into his own after the battle with LeBron...
24 Dalibor Bagarić (C) Croatia Chicago Bulls (from San Antonio) Benston Zagreb (Croatia) 1980 - did he come over?
25 Iakovos "Jake" Tsakalidis (C) Greece Phoenix Suns AEK (Greece) 1979 - BUST
26 Mamadou N'Diaye (C) Senegal Denver Nuggets (from Utah) Auburn Sr. - BUST
27 Primo Brezec (C) Slovenia Indiana Pacers Union Olimpija (Slovenia) 1979 - BUST
28 Erick Barkley (PG) United States Portland Trail Blazers St. John's So. - BUST
29 Mark Madsen (PF) United States Los Angeles Lakers Stanford Sr. - BUST... got a ring with the lakers... and that goofy white boy dance...
so there you have 28% (2/7) internationals who weren't busts... Hedo, Maglore... while 28% (6/21) US players (not counting Collier) weren't busts... this is just the first round...
but again I think it further supports the ****ty talent scout theory when guys like Eric Barkley and Donnel Harvey are drafted ahead of Mike Redd... Damn... 2000 was a bad year... worse than 86? Maybe I'll investigate that...
I think 02 might be the best draft to use... since that was the last draft that the international player, high school prospect and american collegiate prospect were balanced in the first round... but that's for another post...
AK47 is still a good player, one of the best role players in the NBA.
I rest my case. "One of the best role players in the NBA"...yeah I'm sure they got him to be just that and pay him all that starter money for.
Let's see I've barely got 200 posts...someone else has got close to 2,800....
Here's a question for ya hotshot...how many PLAYERS in the HALL OF FAME...ARE INTERNATIONAL WHEN COMPARED TO AMERICAN??
There are 134 in as PLAYERS.
ONLY 3 Are FOREIGN.
Who is spending less time at an actual job again?
Didn't think so you mental midget, surprised Marbury let you out tonight.
Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
Thats like asking how many black players were in the baseball hall of fame only 5-10 years after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier.
bahahahahahaha you will find most of the hall of fame members were before the influx of International flavour hit the NBA.
Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
I thought this post was about International players being more hype then hope, not if you dont make the hall of fame u aint ****.
Im sure plenty of great American players aint in the hall of fame, who cares.
The whole title of the post has flunked, throwing out averages on why Interntionals are busts. Man more Americans have played in the NBA and been busts then Internationals. You will always have busts no matter where u recruit. Dirk is a gun, Parker is a finals MVP and NBA Champion, Ginobli is a top 5 SG in the league and NBA champion. This is all because the Knicks went with Gallanari and ur not happy cause u want a American playing for the Knicks. Man pull ur head out of ur arse. There was no one definitley better then him at pick 6, all possibilies only. The Knicks went with what would fit best in there game plan and roster for the next season. Let it be. If its not successful then thats fine and they should learn from it.
Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
My question is this. I asked it before, I'll ask it again. So you an NBA GM. There is a League wide draft. Would you take Kobe first or a European player? Lebron or a European player? KG or a European player? Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Paul Pierce...you get what I'm saying. This ain't hate, it's reality. Europeans don't take half as much blame as American players do. I think this article is evidence of that. If you don't believe me, then talk to Lamar Odom, who has done a lot in Los Angeles for charity, was reduced to the 3 in L.A.'s big 3 and is blamed along with Derek Fisher for LA's Finals loss. Pau Gasol sucked. He shot blanks, but Odom gets blamed? Ridiculous and unfair.
PS. ShairanXIII whats good? Welcome back.
Originally Posted by dr.carpy
Lets be real here, Odom stunk up the place. Gasol did not play his strongest either, MAD SOFT! But, he played as a whole much better than Odom. I can't believe Odom does not have a post game. He musta thought that tricky handle would be enough. Boston reduced him to mere matter.
Did Fisher play? I musta missed that... Or maybe Rondo of all people just swallowed him whole. Yikes.
So if there was a player in Europe that was like a Kobe, LeBron or KG would u think that a NBA GM should or shouldnt pick them? We are not talking about picking Internationals over guaranteed star players. This year there was only 3 all star calibre players and they were all American and they got selected in the 1st 3 picks. Everything after was just pure hope and basically up to the players to fulfill their potential.
Originally Posted by dr.carpy
European players dont take the blame? so what did Dirk get served after they lost to the Heat in the finals and also the Warriros in the 1st round?
It shouldnt matter where u are from, if ur good enough then that is good enough.
Agreed. Dirk choked. But he isn't the only elite international player. Also in the system AJ played, he didn't even have the ball in his hands as much as he should have had (and more importantly: where he should have got it). Against Miami AJ didn't trust his system and Wade was outstanding. Plus the referees made a whole lot of questionable calls. In the following years AJ more and more took to isolation-basketball (with either Dirk and Josh as the key player and he couldn't really decide on his go-to-guy). To be honest they didn't play proper systems at all. For that kind of basketball you don't need Jason Kidd. So the trade messed things up even more. Also they seemed to have had some locker room issues with Josh Howard. But never mind. This isn't a Mavs forum.
Originally Posted by dr.carpy
@ Knicks4lyfe: http://www.bloodandmud.com/images/20...eth_thomas.jpg
I'll let you guys handle 4Realz and Dr. Crappy, those both failed to come back and contradict all my points and now are talking about some crazy ****.