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Thread: I'm beating a dead horse but Mike D is probably the problem

  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    I disagree. Reason being is there are only a few GREAT individual defenders in the NBA. Artest, Ariza to name two. Without hand checking defense has become more of a team accomplishment. It's too hard trying to stay in front of your man each and every possession.

    Last nights game we played excellent team defense. Which should be something that they're coached to do. BUT, we KNOW for a fact that this isnt MDA's strength.

    I wouldnt be surprised if it comes out that Billups and MELO kinda lead the defensive practice the day before. Or that MDA at least got some serious input from these guys.

    So if you look at it objectively you can see that it truly is the coaching or non coaching that leads to good or bad defensive play...
    True! An objective person will look at the recent trades & wonder why NOW is there such as emphasis on the defensive end all of the sudden when there wasn't much at all for the last 2 years. We sure as hell know it's not MDA having an epiphany thinking defense wins championships. It's Billups the new floor leader who knows first hand that defense wins games & that can help you win when the offense isn't clicking. Also wth George Karl taking shots at Melo for his lack of defensive focus, I'm sure that gave him motivation as well. I'll give MDA props for letting Billups take more control but you can bet MDA knows if he pisses our big 3, chances are he's gone before any of them would be traded or waived.

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Not trying to spin anything...here's a tip for you in the future:

    When you read a quote, think: what is that person's angle? Why are they saying the things they are saying?

    Its surprising because I know you can and do think about these things, look at the way you responded to the Billups quote. Its shocking to me how blindly biased you are, so biased you refuse to even acknowledge the bias. Hubie has an angle, as a coach do you expect him to sit there and say "Coacing isn't that important, its really on the players."?

    Billups has an angle as well, I just wish you would be fair and realize everyone has an angle and there are reasons why people say the things they do.


    As for moneyg - yikes. Wow. Any proof to the statement "Amare almost didn't come here because of D'antoni"? Or is this just more conjecture with no evidence or proof?
    KBlack, are you really trying to discredit Hubie Brown and the fact that Amar'e only signed here b/c of the money?

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    Sabathia signd with the Yankees/Girardi under much more dubious terms, and because of getting as many bones as possible. He quickly grew to love his decision -- and the coach.

    Past is the past. Current reality is Amare likes playing for the Knicks under MDA.

    Amare says he was never taught D, yet then was taught as a NBA veteran?



    Smh. If anyone truly believes that at face value there's a bridge in the back of my apartment I'm looking to sell...

    Either way, his defense has been typically poor is year -- aside from a career high type block/steal numbers.

    So....

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    The same sitdown where afterwards Amare admitted whatever beef they had was a "result of his immaturity"? That sitdown? Where amare took the nlame for any problems between them? Yep his admission that he was immature and had since grown up from a teenager to a man in the time he knew D'antoni sure sounds like he "almost didn't come here." So much so that within the first few days of free agency, he put ink to paper.

    yeah that one... and if you think it was one sided.. ur wrong...why would amare need to sitdown to talk to him about somethin he did wrong....amare took the high road....Oantoni wanted to make sure that amare would buy into this bs of a system.. he just signed 100 mil contract.. you think he gonna say..
    "I signed for the money.. but i hate this coaches system"

    u guys live in a fantasy world.. and belive eevrythin printed.. word for word...

    try analyzing ang reading the fine print...


    "Mike was a quiet guy. Sometimes he didn't talk to a certain players. Didn't communicate as well to the players which sometimes can be a little frustrating because you want to build that relationship with your coach. You want to build that friend(ship) so you can sit down with him and talk about personal thoughts and also basketball. You want that friendship with your coach. Mike was a quiet guy.
    ...Then you bring in Alvin, a guy who is definitely a players coach. A guy you can talk to and say 'hey man you know', 'family situation here', 'or my kids here', 'my kids are doing great in school', 'how are your kids'. That's the type of conversation you want to have with your coach. Alvin's that guy.
    You want a coach that you can really hug and hold and high five and really have fun with. That makes it fun play. You can high five and hug your team mates. You don't want to have fear of your coach. You want to be respectable with him but you also want to be a friend with him."

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    i can pull up more.. if you like

  5. #65
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by moneyg
    yeah that one... and if you think it was one sided.. ur wrong...why would amare need to sitdown to talk to him about somethin he did wrong....amare took the high road....Oantoni wanted to make sure that amare would buy into this bs of a system.. he just signed 100 mil contract.. you think he gonna say..
    "I signed for the money.. but i hate this coaches system"

    u guys live in a fantasy world.. and belive eevrythin printed.. word for word...

    try analyzing ang reading the fine print...
    "Mike was a quiet guy. Sometimes he didn't talk to a certain players. Didn't communicate as well to the players which sometimes can be a little frustrating because you want to build that relationship with your coach. You want to build that friend(ship) so you can sit down with him and talk about personal thoughts and also basketball. You want that friendship with your coach. Mike was a quiet guy.
    ...Then you bring in Alvin, a guy who is definitely a players coach. A guy you can talk to and say 'hey man you know', 'family situation here', 'or my kids here', 'my kids are doing great in school', 'how are your kids'. That's the type of conversation you want to have with your coach. Alvin's that guy.
    You want a coach that you can really hug and hold and high five and really have fun with. That makes it fun play. You can high five and hug your team mates. You don't want to have fear of your coach. You want to be respectable with him but you also want to be a friend with him."

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    i can pull up more.. if you like
    Define irony: Bashing someone for believing something they read and then posting an article (and offering to post more) to prove it.

    Why would Amare sitdown to talk about something he did wrong? I don't know, maybe because he is a mature human being who actually has remorse for his immature actions of the past? Maybe because before committing himself for the next 5 years he thought it wise to clear up any issues he had? If D'Antoni was really a problem for him he would have taken more money to play in PHX...

    Musketeer: Not trying to discredit Hubie Brown, but when you read a quote like that you have to think where he came from, why he says the things he says,etc. Also, if you are saying that Amare ONLY signed in NY for the money, that just proves that he didn't almost stay away b/c of D'Antoni because $ was his sole motivator, which proves my point.

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Define irony: Bashing someone for believing something they read and then posting an article (and offering to post more) to prove it.

    Why would Amare sitdown to talk about something he did wrong? I don't know, maybe because he is a mature human being who actually has remorse for his immature actions of the past? Maybe because before committing himself for the next 5 years he thought it wise to clear up any issues he had? If D'Antoni was really a problem for him he would have taken more money to play in PHX...

    Musketeer: Not trying to discredit Hubie Brown, but when you read a quote like that you have to think where he came from, why he says the things he says,etc. Also, if you are saying that Amare ONLY signed in NY for the money, that just proves that he didn't almost stay away b/c of D'Antoni because $ was his sole motivator, which proves my point.

    Phx offered him only 3 years fully guaranteed not 5.. why would he stay in PHX..

    money had alot to do with it.. but if the money was the same... guaranteed..

    amare doesnt come here with oantoni in place.. guaranteed

  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by moneyg
    Phx offered him only 3 years fully guaranteed not 5.. why would he stay in PHX..

    money had alot to do with it.. but if the money was the same... guaranteed..

    amare doesnt come here with oantoni in place.. guaranteed
    Ladies and gentlemen, another EPIC fail from MoneyG.

    You GUARANTEE things in the hypothetical? For a person you do not know beyond interviews and watching him play basketball? Yikes. So tell me, what is it like being Amare's psychologist and personal confidant? How did you garner such incredible inside info?

    Seriously moneyg, with insight into how Amare thinks and being a member of his camp, you should be on here posting daily about all the things you see, hear and know about him? What is Amare's workout regimen? Was he happy that The Kings Speech won best picture? What TV shows is he watching now? What is he going to have for dinner? I mean, you can guarantee that Amare doesn't sign here if PHX offers him the same $ and D'Antoni is still in place, despite the fact that he clearly loves NY. What other inside tidbits can you give us?

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Ladies and gentlemen, another EPIC fail from MoneyG.

    You GUARANTEE things in the hypothetical? For a person you do not know beyond interviews and watching him play basketball? Yikes. So tell me, what is it like being Amare's psychologist and personal confidant? How did you garner such incredible inside info?

    Seriously moneyg, with insight into how Amare thinks and being a member of his camp, you should be on here posting daily about all the things you see, hear and know about him? What is Amare's workout regimen? Was he happy that The Kings Speech won best picture? What TV shows is he watching now? What is he going to have for dinner? I mean, you can guarantee that Amare doesn't sign here if PHX offers him the same $ and D'Antoni is still in place, despite the fact that he clearly loves NY. What other inside tidbits can you give us?

    its a fact


    read it and weep..

    i dont make these things up..

    another foolish post by kblack

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    go do your research

    O.N.E.

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    Originally Posted by moneyg
    its a fact


    read it and weep..

    i dont make these things up..

    another foolish post by kblack

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    go do your research

    O.N.E.
    LMFAO - EPIC FAIL AGAIN! CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER HIS OWN ARGUMENT!

    You do know the max deal in Phoenix would be worth more than the max deal in NY right? Not to mention, that article does NOT say he would have stayed in PHX and NOT come to New York BECAUSE OF Mike D'Antoni, which was your point.

    In addition - it does not PROVE that D'ANTONI was the defining factor in his decision to stay in PHX (which was your point). As I stated the PHX deal would have netted him more $, it does not say that D'Antoni made him waiver, and D'Antoni would have been the reason he stayed in PHX...

    Where is the "He would have stayed in PHX for more $ than the Knicks offered b/c of D'Antoni" article?



    Example of moneyg's "logical argument":

    Mike D'Antoni had a sit down with Amare before Amare put ink to paper.

    Amare would have signed in PHX if PHX offered him more guaranteed money.

    Therefore: Amare would have stayed in PHX if PHX offered him more guaranteed money because of Mike D'Antoni.

    It looks to me like he would have stayed in PHX if PHX offered him more $ b/c of the $. Which means D'Antoni's presence was not a factor.

    You asserted that he would not have come to NY if PHX offered the guaranteed deal with D'Antoni in place, IMPLYING that with someone else in place he would have hypothetically left $ on the table. Where is your proof?
    Last edited by KBlack25; Feb 28, 2011 at 17:07.

  10. #70
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Things that do not surprise me:

    1. A longtime, famous coach talking about the merits and effects of coaching.
    Really? Hubie who has more basketball knowledge in his pinkie toe says

    "Don't give me this garbage about guys can't play defense. Defense comes down to the accountability of the COACHING STAFF"

    and you refer to "the merits and effects of coaching"...smh

    This is called spinning. Wake up.

    Learn to accept it for what it is. To assume alterior motive is as you say a straw man argument. But let me break this down to show all of us your reluctance.

    1st did you hear the interview for yourself? I doubt it.
    2nd What agenda would an aged veteran who is a great commentator have besides giving his opinion? Don't answer that, its moot at this point.

    But lets take a looksie at your angle...

    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Not trying to spin anything...here's a tip for you in the future:

    When you read a quote, think: what is that person's angle? Why are they saying the things they are saying?

    Its surprising because I know you can and do think about these things, look at the way you responded to the Billups quote. Its shocking to me how blindly biased you are, so biased you refuse to even acknowledge the bias. Hubie has an angle, as a coach do you expect him to sit there and say "Coacing isn't that important, its really on the players."?

    Billups has an angle as well, I just wish you would be fair and realize everyone has an angle and there are reasons why people say the things they do.


    As for moneyg - yikes. Wow. Any proof to the statement "Amare almost didn't come here because of D'antoni"? Or is this just more conjecture with no evidence or proof?
    Yes i can do those things and today lets start with you.

    You seem to

    1. Have a reluctance on accepting the truth
    2. See posts on KOL as "battles" to be won or loss

    Therefor we can conclude by accepting the truth you will see yourself as losing a battle, while no one else except your clown posse of arguers is attempting.
    • The Stats say MDA is an avg defensive coach at best
    • The media says they all realize MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    • Coaches say MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    • Players say MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    Hubie f*cking Brown says it's about accountability. Meaning (as he said) a coach can tell a player what he expects, but when said player doesn't do what he's instructed, there's no consequence. No benching, no development, nothing. That's what he meant by accountability.

    That's what everyone means about being an OFFENSIVE coach. When you hold players accountable or praise them for their OFFENSIVE doings- this will lead to players, coaches, media to conclude you care more about OFFENSE.

    When the Stats show you aren't improving, adapting, developing, and your team is looking down right lost and inept on DEFENSE, an opinion of a coach NOT being a gifted defensive mind will arise.

    When a poster argues just to argue ala Trillion, you are seen as weak and feminine as those are the traits.

    There is nothing to argue or battle to lose. Only your reputation for a reluctance to accept the truth will permeate.

    MDA is an offensive coach with obvious limits and flaws. I accept that.
    MDA isn't going to take an avg. defensive team and make them better nor any team and make them better defensively. I accept that also. As you say it's the players right? So why are you defending MDA?

    Learn to admit that your posts are just arguing fodder at times because you support coach but can't handle the truth. That he's not as good as you pretend he is. I can accept that too.

    Regarding those above semi-technical questions i posed...

    yes I can easily answer them and break them down because I watch and know what I am watching (and obviously or I wouldn't have asked); it's elementary to me. Do some research on MDA, his systems and philosophies and if you are willing to accept the truth...

    then you can extrapolate why exactly the numbers are what they are. No inference or spinning on motive needed. But if you can't accept the truth (not my opinion on if I like MDA or not or whatever) just what the facts say without spinning or over analyzing then maybe, just maybe you will realize how dumb it is to argue what everyone already knows.

    ...and I can accept that too. good luck.

    For Gods sake, talk what you know, and if not just stfu.

  11. #71
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Really? Hubie who has more basketball knowledge in his pinkie toe says

    "Don't give me this garbage about guys can't play defense. Defense comes down to the accountability of the COACHING STAFF"

    and you refer to "the merits and effects of coaching"...smh

    This is called spinning. Wake up.

    Learn to accept it for what it is. To assume alterior motive is as you say a straw man argument. But let me break this down to show all of us your reluctance.

    1st did you hear the interview for yourself? I doubt it.
    2nd What agenda would an aged veteran who is a great commentator have besides giving his opinion? Don't answer that, its moot at this point.

    But lets take a looksie at your angle...



    Yes i can do those things and today lets start with you.

    You seem to

    1. Have a reluctance on accepting the truth
    2. See posts on KOL as "battles" to be won or loss

    Therefor we can conclude by accepting the truth you will see yourself as losing a battle, while no one else except your clown posse of arguers is attempting.
    • The Stats say MDA is an avg defensive coach at best
    • The media says they all realize MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    • Coaches say MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    • Players say MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    Hubie f*cking Brown says it's about accountability. Meaning (as he said) a coach can tell a player what he expects, but when said player doesn't do what he's instructed, there's no consequence. No benching, no development, nothing. That's what he meant by accountability.

    That's what everyone means about being an OFFENSIVE coach. When you hold players accountable or praise them for their OFFENSIVE doings- this will lead to players, coaches, media to conclude you care more about OFFENSE.

    When the Stats show you aren't improving, adapting, developing, and your team is looking down right lost and inept on DEFENSE, an opinion of a coach NOT being a gifted defensive mind will arise.

    When a poster argues just to argue ala Trillion, you are seen as weak and feminine as those are the traits.

    There is nothing to argue or battle to lose. Only your reputation for a reluctance to accept the truth will permeate.

    MDA is an offensive coach with obvious limits and flaws. I accept that.
    MDA isn't going to take an avg. defensive team and make them better nor any team and make them better defensively. I accept that also. As you say it's the players right? So why are you defending MDA?

    Learn to admit that your posts are just arguing fodder at times because you support coach but can't handle the truth. That he's not as good as you pretend he is. I can accept that too.

    Regarding those above semi-technical questions i posed...

    yes I can easily answer them and break them down because I watch and know what I am watching (and obviously or I wouldn't have asked); it's elementary to me. Do some research on MDA, his systems and philosophies and if you are willing to accept the truth...

    then you can extrapolate why exactly the numbers are what they are. No inference or spinning on motive needed. But if you can't accept the truth (not my opinion on if I like MDA or not or whatever) just what the facts say without spinning or over analyzing then maybe, just maybe you will realize how dumb it is to argue what everyone already knows.

    ...and I can accept that too. good luck.

    For Gods sake, talk what you know, and if not just stfu.
    And as I have stated over and over again you overstate the facts. Mike D'Antoni has coached teams to the top half of defensive rating. You guys would have us believe he is in the bottom 5 yearly, which he isn't, except for the last two years during which we had some truly AWFUL squads, talent-wise.

    The fact that I think it is the PLAYERS is why I am defending Mike D'Antoni, because I think that the players, not the coach, affect the game much more. Are there good and bad coaches? Of course there are. I am not saying D'Antoni is a defensive genius. Nor am I saying he is perfect, I was yelling that in a crucial spot, with STAT and Amare and Billups, an inbounds play was called for BILL WALKER yesterday. But at the end of the day, MDA isn't missing layups. MDA isn't refusing to boxout. MDA doesn't miss free throws. MDA doesn't let his guy blow right by him. MDA doesn't let LeBron get to the rack (only to be saved by Amare collapsing on defense). And I firmly, and will always firmly, believe that coaches are more similar than they are different.

    You say the stats show we aren't improving:

    We are better this year in defensive rating.
    Amare is blocking a ton of shots.
    And this whole board today is blowing up about the good defense we played.

    You want to sit here and talk about MDA's limits as a coach, bash his limitations, but what about our limitations as a squad? You consistently refuse to ignore those. Fact is, you can't draw blood from a stone. Amare didn't play good defense with Alvin Gentry, he is playing better this season on defense than I have ever seen him. We don't have a true center, at all. To start the year our centers were Mozgov and Turiaf, now they are Turiaf and nobody, basically. Carmelo's most recent coach bashed him for not having effort on defense, he played genuinely poor defense, even when Karl tried to preach it consistently. This tells me it is more the players.

    Hubie Brown doesn't have an agenda; but he has a point of view. He is a coach, he came up as a coach, made his $ and his name as a coach. He isn't going to think coaching is as irrelevant as I do, and likely finds it more important than almost anyone on earth. So no, his comments do not surprise me in the least.

    You take everything said against MDA seriously, but then you accept that Billups had to spin his comments in a certain way, that JJ said things in a certain way for ulterior motives. It is YOU, Red, consistently spinning and being clearly and obviously biased, taking information that helps your argument at face value, and ignoring or recasting information that goes against it.

    You have even contradicted yourself:

    You criticized, earlier in the year, MDA for not being able to adapt.
    Now you are saying that he can adapt, but he shouldn't get credit b/c that is the player's doing?

    You criticized, earlier in the year, MDA for not coaching up defense.
    But when we play good defense, it is the players. (My argument that you, by the way SLAMMED, from the beginning.)

    In regards to the technical questions, I can give you answers, but ultimately it boils down to: I blame the players for their shortcomings, you blame the coach. Something I have reiterated countless times on this board. It all stems back to the fact that YOU want to blame the coaches, and I want to blame the players, it is a fundamental disagreement in our ideologies that will never be resolved, informing our opinions and the way we watch things.
    Last edited by KBlack25; Feb 28, 2011 at 17:29.

  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    LMFAO - EPIC FAIL AGAIN! CAN'T EVEN REMEMBER HIS OWN ARGUMENT!

    You do know the max deal in Phoenix would be worth more than the max deal in NY right? Not to mention, that article does NOT say he would have stayed in PHX and NOT come to New York BECAUSE OF Mike D'Antoni, which was your point.

    In addition - it does not PROVE that D'ANTONI was the defining factor in his decision to stay in PHX (which was your point). As I stated the PHX deal would have netted him more $, it does not say that D'Antoni made him waiver, and D'Antoni would have been the reason he stayed in PHX...

    Where is the "He would have stayed in PHX for more $ than the Knicks offered b/c of D'Antoni" article?



    Example of moneyg's "logical argument":

    Mike D'Antoni had a sit down with Amare before Amare put ink to paper.

    Amare would have signed in PHX if PHX offered him more guaranteed money.

    Therefore: Amare would have stayed in PHX if PHX offered him more guaranteed money because of Mike D'Antoni.

    It looks to me like he would have stayed in PHX if PHX offered him more $ b/c of the $. Which means D'Antoni's presence was not a factor.

    You asserted that he would not have come to NY if PHX offered the guaranteed deal with D'Antoni in place, IMPLYING that with someone else in place he would have hypothetically left $ on the table. Where is your proof?
    Amar'e was never a fan of D'Antoni's... he spoke out against MDA more than once. Amar'e matured for sure, but the only reason why he came to NY was because of the longer K. Hubie Brown spoke his belief on a coaches duties. To say you have to take his opinion for less than it is worth because he is a coach makes no sense to me.

    He has experience and accomplishments and for those reasons we should give greater weight to his opinion, not less.

  13. #73
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    Smile

    I'm gonna go ahead now and take credit for last week proving unequivocally that Coach's past defenses were atleast average, something the purest Mike D haters could not admit before. The d-rating stat is real deal proof peoples ..
    :-)

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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    Amar'e was never a fan of D'Antoni's... he spoke out against MDA more than once. Amar'e matured for sure, but the only reason why he came to NY was because of the longer K. Hubie Brown spoke his belief on a coaches duties. To say you have to take his opinion for less than it is worth because he is a coach makes no sense to me.

    He has experience and accomplishments and for those reasons we should give greater weight to his opinion, not less.
    Fine - then it was for the money. Which meant D'Antoni was a non-factor. The statement I was responding to was "Amare almost didn't come here b/c of D'Antoni" - if the $ was all that mattered, then D'Antoni didn't. There is no evidence that Amare "almost didn't come here BECAUSE of D'Antoni".

    You can take Hubie's statements however you want...all I said was to realize he was going to be very pro-coaching, and speak highly of the position and it's affect on the game. Which is why that statement doesn't surprise me. Which is what I said.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Really? Hubie who has more basketball knowledge in his pinkie toe says

    "Don't give me this garbage about guys can't play defense. Defense comes down to the accountability of the COACHING STAFF"

    and you refer to "the merits and effects of coaching"...smh

    This is called spinning. Wake up.

    Learn to accept it for what it is. To assume alterior motive is as you say a straw man argument. But let me break this down to show all of us your reluctance.

    1st did you hear the interview for yourself? I doubt it.
    2nd What agenda would an aged veteran who is a great commentator have besides giving his opinion? Don't answer that, its moot at this point.

    But lets take a looksie at your angle...



    Yes i can do those things and today lets start with you.

    You seem to

    1. Have a reluctance on accepting the truth
    2. See posts on KOL as "battles" to be won or loss

    Therefor we can conclude by accepting the truth you will see yourself as losing a battle, while no one else except your clown posse of arguers is attempting.
    • The Stats say MDA is an avg defensive coach at best
    • The media says they all realize MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    • Coaches say MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    • Players say MDA isn't a good defensive minded coach
    Hubie f*cking Brown says it's about accountability. Meaning (as he said) a coach can tell a player what he expects, but when said player doesn't do what he's instructed, there's no consequence. No benching, no development, nothing. That's what he meant by accountability.

    That's what everyone means about being an OFFENSIVE coach. When you hold players accountable or praise them for their OFFENSIVE doings- this will lead to players, coaches, media to conclude you care more about OFFENSE.

    When the Stats show you aren't improving, adapting, developing, and your team is looking down right lost and inept on DEFENSE, an opinion of a coach NOT being a gifted defensive mind will arise.

    When a poster argues just to argue ala Trillion, you are seen as weak and feminine as those are the traits.

    There is nothing to argue or battle to lose. Only your reputation for a reluctance to accept the truth will permeate.

    MDA is an offensive coach with obvious limits and flaws. I accept that.
    MDA isn't going to take an avg. defensive team and make them better nor any team and make them better defensively. I accept that also. As you say it's the players right? So why are you defending MDA?

    Learn to admit that your posts are just arguing fodder at times because you support coach but can't handle the truth. That he's not as good as you pretend he is. I can accept that too.

    Regarding those above semi-technical questions i posed...

    yes I can easily answer them and break them down because I watch and know what I am watching (and obviously or I wouldn't have asked); it's elementary to me. Do some research on MDA, his systems and philosophies and if you are willing to accept the truth...

    then you can extrapolate why exactly the numbers are what they are. No inference or spinning on motive needed. But if you can't accept the truth (not my opinion on if I like MDA or not or whatever) just what the facts say without spinning or over analyzing then maybe, just maybe you will realize how dumb it is to argue what everyone already knows.

    ...and I can accept that too. good luck.

    For Gods sake, talk what you know, and if not just stfu.
    Great post Red. +1. I've said it before these guys either dont get it, dont want to get it or are related to MDA. There really is no other explanation.

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