I'm beating a dead horse but Mike D is probably the problem

SSj4Wingzero · Feb 28, 2011

...

Everybody takes blame in every situation.

If the team loses and the defense is terrible, is it the players' fault, or the coaches' fault? It's BOTH. It's the players' fault for not performing, and it's the coach's fault for not getting the players to perform well (whether it's motivating them or using strategies that utilize their talents and hide their weaknesses).

That being said you have to realize that D'Antoni didn't have much choice when it came to playing Centers on our team - Ronny Turiaf is good but undersized and oft-injured, Mozgov is RAW and got into way too much foul trouble, and who else is there? That's it. If Turiaf is injured and Mozgov can't catch a pass then the only person on your roster who can play Center is Amar'e Stoudemire and that means playing a small lineup.

D'Antoni basically had no choice against teams like the Lakers. Mozgov was not ready to hang with Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol, so D'Antoni's only option was to go small and do their best to out-run and out-gun them, which, again, is never an ideal strategy but when Turiaf is hurt and Mozgov has butterfingers you don't really have much choice as a coach.

MusketeerX · Mar 1, 2011

SSj4Wingzero said:
...

Everybody takes blame in every situation.

If the team loses and the defense is terrible, is it the players' fault, or the coaches' fault? It's BOTH. It's the players' fault for not performing, and it's the coach's fault for not getting the players to perform well (whether it's motivating them or using strategies that utilize their talents and hide their weaknesses).

That being said you have to realize that D'Antoni didn't have much choice when it came to playing Centers on our team - Ronny Turiaf is good but undersized and oft-injured, Mozgov is RAW and got into way too much foul trouble, and who else is there? That's it. If Turiaf is injured and Mozgov can't catch a pass then the only person on your roster who can play Center is Amar'e Stoudemire and that means playing a small lineup.

D'Antoni basically had no choice against teams like the Lakers. Mozgov was not ready to hang with Andrew Bynum and Pau Gasol, so D'Antoni's only option was to go small and do their best to out-run and out-gun them, which, again, is never an ideal strategy but when Turiaf is hurt and Mozgov has butterfingers you don't really have much choice as a coach.

Mozgov may have been raw, but he was a better option than playing Shawne Williams on Bynum....

Defense needs to be inspired, but it also has to be taught. Poor individual defenders can be taught how to play team defense. Team defense can lead to wins. The Bulls and Spurs play great defense despite having some poor defenders. The Celtics have poor defenders with the exception of Garnet and Rondo, yet play amazing team defense.

Sure players have to play the game of basketball, but when one end of the court is emphasized so much, the other goes by the wayside. Felton and Amar'e have both said as much this year.

KBlack25 · Mar 1, 2011

MusketeerX said:
Mozgov may have been raw, but he was a better option than playing Shawne Williams on Bynum....

Defense needs to be inspired, but it also has to be taught. Poor individual defenders can be taught how to play team defense. Team defense can lead to wins. The Bulls and Spurs play great defense despite having some poor defenders. The Celtics have poor defenders with the exception of Garnet and Rondo, yet play amazing team defense.

Sure players have to play the game of basketball, but when one end of the court is emphasized so much, the other goes by the wayside. Felton and Amar'e have both said as much this year.

The three teams you mentioned:

The Bulls
The Spurs
The Celtics

What do they all have in common? They all have legitimate center options:

Bulls:
Noah - a good defender before Tom Thibodeau got there
Boozer - a very good rebounder

Spurs:
Duncan - a very good defender
Blair - a very good rebounder, even in college

Celtics:
Garnett who you admitted was a good defender
Kendrick Perkins (before the trade) - a good rebounder, big body inside
Glenn Davis - a good rebounder, big body inside
Shaq - big body inside

Who are/were our center options and bodies in the middle:
Ronny Turiaf - good, but undersized
Stoudemire - who never played defense, even under Alvin Gentry, isn't a great rebounder
Mozgov - a project European undrafted rookie who didn't rebound well early
Curry - enough said

Notice the difference between the THREE squads you mentioned and ours in terms of just talent and the roster?

Toons · Mar 1, 2011

KBlack25 said:
And as I have stated over and over again you overstate the facts. Mike D'Antoni has coached teams to the top half of defensive rating. You guys would have us believe he is in the bottom 5 yearly, which he isn't, except for the last two years during which we had some truly AWFUL squads, talent-wise.

The fact that I think it is the PLAYERS is why I am defending Mike D'Antoni, because I think that the players, not the coach, affect the game much more. Are there good and bad coaches? Of course there are. I am not saying D'Antoni is a defensive genius. Nor am I saying he is perfect, I was yelling that in a crucial spot, with STAT and Amare and Billups, an inbounds play was called for BILL WALKER yesterday. But at the end of the day, MDA isn't missing layups. MDA isn't refusing to boxout. MDA doesn't miss free throws. MDA doesn't let his guy blow right by him. MDA doesn't let LeBron get to the rack (only to be saved by Amare collapsing on defense). And I firmly, and will always firmly, believe that coaches are more similar than they are different.

You say the stats show we aren't improving:

We are better this year in defensive rating.
Amare is blocking a ton of shots.
And this whole board today is blowing up about the good defense we played.

You want to sit here and talk about MDA's limits as a coach, bash his limitations, but what about our limitations as a squad? You consistently refuse to ignore those. Fact is, you can't draw blood from a stone. Amare didn't play good defense with Alvin Gentry, he is playing better this season on defense than I have ever seen him. We don't have a true center, at all. To start the year our centers were Mozgov and Turiaf, now they are Turiaf and nobody, basically. Carmelo's most recent coach bashed him for not having effort on defense, he played genuinely poor defense, even when Karl tried to preach it consistently. This tells me it is more the players.

Hubie Brown doesn't have an agenda; but he has a point of view. He is a coach, he came up as a coach, made his $ and his name as a coach. He isn't going to think coaching is as irrelevant as I do, and likely finds it more important than almost anyone on earth. So no, his comments do not surprise me in the least.

You take everything said against MDA seriously, but then you accept that Billups had to spin his comments in a certain way, that JJ said things in a certain way for ulterior motives. It is YOU, Red, consistently spinning and being clearly and obviously biased, taking information that helps your argument at face value, and ignoring or recasting information that goes against it.

You have even contradicted yourself:

You criticized, earlier in the year, MDA for not being able to adapt.
Now you are saying that he can adapt, but he shouldn't get credit b/c that is the player's doing?

You criticized, earlier in the year, MDA for not coaching up defense.
But when we play good defense, it is the players. (My argument that you, by the way SLAMMED, from the beginning.)

In regards to the technical questions, I can give you answers, but ultimately it boils down to: I blame the players for their shortcomings, you blame the coach. Something I have reiterated countless times on this board. It all stems back to the fact that YOU want to blame the coaches, and I want to blame the players, it is a fundamental disagreement in our ideologies that will never be resolved, informing our opinions and the way we watch things.

WELL PUT. I think the arguement should be on a percentage. and we should do a poll.

is the way we play

100% coaching

100% players ability

50/50% coaching/players ability

60/40% coaching/players ability

40/60% coaching/players ability

because both of you guys are wrong, is not the players fault or the coach, ths both of them. The coach is a part of the team, and many people on the team fall down, but i feel that when it comes down to it, its the players ability (great players dont need much coaching and development) because on the floor, its the players that make and miss shots. Every play drawn up is designed to work. No coach designs a play to fail, so to me, it all comes down to execution.

moneyg · Mar 1, 2011

KBlack25 said:
Finally someone with a rational viewpoint, at least if you blame MDA when things go wrong you give him proper credit when things go right.

Thank you.

im not saying O'antoni doesnt deserve credit for our defense in one game against the heat.. but why did this take so long???

it was one game.. was it luck???

carter begged O;antoni to play him on wade.. he guaranteed our coach that he would be able to do a good job on Dwade....im glad he listen.. but he should challenge guys to want to defend.

this is a back and forth argument...with no end

however.. its clear that o'antoni lacks on the defensive end.. its that simple

its like a girl with a banging body and good looks... and its easy to get her in the bed..and she not that smart.. u wonder how easy it was for others to get her in bed....

lets not be that blind....

Blas · Mar 1, 2011

I think the biggest problem with this thread is the extremes put out by some posters here.

It is one thing to say we cannot win a championship because D'antoni is not a defensive minded coach.

It is another thing to say we cannot win a championship because D'antoni never ever preaches defense, never teaches it, and benches and limits defensive players because they have limited offensive capabilities.

Kblack, Trill, Toons, and company rarely argue extremes.

The are defending against emotional/arrogant/inane opinions that have very little proof and credibility.

I have yet to see them say something like:

D'antoni will win us a chamionship because he can teach our current roster to completely outscore the other team and defense will never matter.

This is the problem.

NOBODY here is saying MD is a defensive genious.
NOBODY here is saying defense does not win championships.

But there is a group of people who will always blame MD for everything and give him ZERO credit and then back it up with emotional hateful tirades.

Red · Mar 1, 2011

KBlack25 said:
I clear and explicitly stated that D'Antoni is not a good defensive coach, I know that, I understand that.

Really, with as many lines of spin garbage you provided, you could of fooled us.

Brutal FAILURE!

TAKE A SEAT.

Toons · Mar 1, 2011

Red said:
Really, with as many lines of spin garbage you provided, you could of fooled us.

Brutal FAILURE!

TAKE A SEAT.

just because defense is not your specialty doesnt mean that you do not teach defense. Hes a frickin NBA coach. Dantoni knows more about defense than everyone on this board combined. Every single play in every coach's playbook is designed to score a basket. No one draws up a play to fail. It comes down to execution. With a C plus grade on teaching defense, An A grade on offense and the right defensive players, our team can look like an A for offense and B for defense.

NicksKnicks · Mar 1, 2011

Toons said:
just because defense is not your specialty doesnt mean that you do not teach defense. Hes a frickin NBA coach. Dantoni knows more about defense than everyone on this board combined. Every single play in every coach's playbook is designed to score a basket. No one draws up a play to fail. It comes down to execution. With a C plus grade on teaching defense, An A grade on offense and the right defensive players, our team can look like an A for offense and B for defense.

I agree. with a decent rebounding center in the mold of marcus camby, we can easily be up there with the best.

Toons · Mar 1, 2011

and im watching this heat knicks game again, in the huddle, dantoni preaches defense, tells them to dig in, stay at home, and gang rebound the opponents. most interesting, to end the huddle, dantoni said...''defense on 3'' 1...2...3...(everyone) ''DEFENSE!''

at the start of the second q, mike was being interviewd and was asked about anthony carter, dantoni's reply was again, based on defense.

Red · Mar 1, 2011

Toons said:
and im watching this heat knicks game again, in the huddle, dantoni preaches defense, tells them to dig in, stay at home, and gang rebound the opponents. most interesting, to end the huddle, dantoni said...''defense on 3'' 1...2...3...(everyone) ''DEFENSE!''

at the start of the second q, mike was being interviewd and was asked about anthony carter, dantoni's reply was again, based on defense.

Oh boy......

MDA "preaches" defense in the huddle, then goes 1,2,3...

So I guess that's the answer then. Just preach and go 1,2,3

Wow, I'll just reserve my comments for those worthy.

Now let's stfu on 3!

1,2,3!

MusketeerX · Mar 1, 2011

KBlack25 said:
The three teams you mentioned:

The Bulls
The Spurs
The Celtics

What do they all have in common? They all have legitimate center options:

Bulls:
Noah - a good defender before Tom Thibodeau got there
Boozer - a very good rebounder

Spurs:
Duncan - a very good defender
Blair - a very good rebounder, even in college

Celtics:
Garnett who you admitted was a good defender
Kendrick Perkins (before the trade) - a good rebounder, big body inside
Glenn Davis - a good rebounder, big body inside
Shaq - big body inside

Who are/were our center options and bodies in the middle:
Ronny Turiaf - good, but undersized
Stoudemire - who never played defense, even under Alvin Gentry, isn't a great rebounder
Mozgov - a project European undrafted rookie who didn't rebound well early
Curry - enough said

Notice the difference between the THREE squads you mentioned and ours in terms of just talent and the roster?

This is not true of the Bulls and Celts for much of the year. Bulls relied on Kurt Thomas (who played very well -- love the guy, but is a small, undersized center). Celtics were playing Glen Davis at Center for awhile and winning most of their games.

The Spurs may have Duncan and Blair, but their 1-3 are poor defenders. They play great team defense, though, and always have. Popvich is a good coach like that. And, no offense to Duncan, but he is old and lost a few steps...

All of these teams have won because they play great team defense. And, given we just claimed some guy i've never heard of before, and he's 6'8, and no pure center is in our foreseeable future, D'Antoni better learn how to coach team defense quickly.

But, a tall, big guy who can alter shots definitely helps, which is why Mozgov should not have been benched for much of the year. D'Antoni has shown himself to be inept in many respects -- defense in the top two of the many ways he fails as a coach.

Red · Mar 1, 2011

MusketeerX said:
This is not true of the Bulls and Celts for much of the year. Bulls relied on Kurt Thomas (who played very well -- love the guy, but is a small, undersized center). Celtics were playing Glen Davis at Center for awhile and winning most of their games.

The Spurs may have Duncan and Blair, but their 1-3 are poor defenders. They play great team defense, though, and always have. Popvich is a good coach like that. And, no offense to Duncan, but he is old and lost a few steps...

All of these teams have won because they play great team defense. And, given we just claimed some guy i've never heard of before, and he's 6'8, and no pure center is in our foreseeable future, D'Antoni better learn how to coach team defense quickly.

But, a tall, big guy who can alter shots definitely helps, which is why Mozgov should not have been benched for much of the year. D'Antoni has shown himself to be inept in many respects -- defense in the top two of the many ways he fails as a coach.

Great points, I see you understand.

Kurt Thomas 6'9"
Perkins 6'10"
Blair 6'9"

Size is one thing, team oriented defense another.
Preaching is one thing, teaching and devloping skills is another.

The measure of a coach is reflected in the impact he has on the individuals and team as a whole.

Is there positive defensive impact on any player worthy of mentioning throughout MDA's career? Don't think so.

How about a positive impact or improvement defensively for a team under MDA? Not at all.

If a player makes a greater impact than a coach, then what does that say about that coach?

If a player performs at a certain level (defensively) under MDA, then improves defensively under a different coach, what does that say?

If HUNDREDS of coaches, players, writers, bloggers and front office persons (after analyzing YEARS worth of games, and thousands of possessions) conclude that MDA lacks defensive coaching ability and further that had been determined his weak point, what does that say?

moneyg · Mar 1, 2011

Red said:
Great points, I see you understand.

Kurt Thomas 6'9"
Perkins 6'10"
Blair 6'9"

Size is one thing, team oriented defense another.
Preaching is one thing, teaching and devloping skills is another.

The measure of a coach is reflected in the impact he has on the individuals and team as a whole.

Is there positive defensive impact on any player worthy of mentioning throughout MDA's career? Don't think so.

How about a positive impact or improvement defensively for a team under MDA? Not at all.

If a player makes a greater impact than a coach, then what does that say about that coach?

If a player performs at a certain level (defensively) under MDA, then improves defensively under a different coach, what does that say?

If HUNDREDS of coaches, players, writers, bloggers and front office persons (after analyzing YEARS worth of games, and thousands of possessions) conclude that MDA lacks defensive coaching ability and further that had been determined his weak point, what does that say?

on the money...

larry brown, tom tibs, mike brown have always been known for their defensive strategies..O'antoni....really

at least mike brown knew he wasnt that good on the offense..and had his assistant calling the offensive plays....

o'antoni didnt even want to hire a defensive minded asst. coach...so what that that tell you about this stubborn fool

TR1LL10N · Mar 1, 2011

moneyg said:
on the money...

larry brown, tom tibs, mike brown have always been known for their defensive strategies..O'antoni....really

at least mike brown knew he wasnt that good on the offense..and had his assistant calling the offensive plays....

o'antoni didnt even want to hire a defensive minded asst. coach...so what that that tell you about this stubborn fool

Tell me why we were rated 27th in the league in PPG and were one of the weakest defensive teams when Larry Brown was our coach. Oh thats right! Coaches can't make up for a lack of talent on the defensive end.

moneyg · Mar 1, 2011

TR1LL10N said:
Tell me why we were rated 27th in the league in PPG and were one of the weakest defensive teams when Larry Brown was our coach. Oh thats right! Coaches can't make up for a lack of talent on the defensive end.

what was our opponents FG% that year??..where was that ranked??....thats the real way to judge defense.. at least that waht O'antoni says...its the only thing i agree with him as far as defensive goes.....

how long did larry brown coach the knicks that year???

Brown admited he failed in NY....i can knock him for a FAIL in one year.

Oantoni has been know for his lack of D.. FOREVER.. get it EVERY YEAR..

Was the bobcats good on D???
Did they make the playoffs under LB???
Was they good on D before he got there??
Was detroit good on D???

on O'antoni's hire by the Knicks

Daily News

Besides Walsh's credibility taking a hit, the Knicks' president is also taking a risk on a coach whose up-tempo style works only with certain types of players. Also, D'Antoni has a reputation as a coach who does not stress defense.
When Walsh was hired last month, he talked of the importance of reestablishing the team's defensive culture. Instead, he hired a coach who angered his bosses in Phoenix because the team wouldn't defend enough. Under D'Antoni, the Suns went 26-25 in the postseason, including a first-round loss to San Antonio in five games this year.
"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Since none of us are visionaries.....history is our best guide

Toons · Mar 1, 2011

Red said:
Oh boy......

MDA "preaches" defense in the huddle, then goes 1,2,3...

So I guess that's the answer then. Just preach and go 1,2,3

Wow, I'll just reserve my comments for those worthy.

Now let's stfu on 3!

1,2,3!

ummm, angry much? those worthy? you think that because you post on an internet forum that it gives you status? Dont come at me like that, cuz i never came at you like that. I was adding and providing proof that the coach does teach defense. I am of the persuasion that its all about effort, and the players drive to win. A coach can only do so much. Dantoni cant do anything right in your eyes anyway. So it makes no sense talkin to idiots like you. We added jefferies today, who is a mike d fav. and he is mostly known for his defensive game. Gallo was considered a favorite and an untouchable but now he is gone, dispelling the popular talk around here that gallo will never be included in a trade because of his people. Mike d hates bigs because he didnt play mozgov, well he is collecting DNP's for george carl right now. We even had assholes hating on mike D for not playing eddy curry. How does a coach that doesnt teach defense go after defensive players? We wont win a championship with mike d's tight 7-8 man rotation.....well he has played a 9-10 man rotation from since we got enough players to do so. I guess u will always find something wrong with the coach.....so keep hatin

Toons · Mar 1, 2011

moneyg said:
what was our opponents FG% that year??..where was that ranked??....thats the real way to judge defense.. at least that waht O'antoni says...its the only thing i agree with him as far as defensive goes.....

how long did larry brown coach the knicks that year???

Brown admited he failed in NY....i can knock him for a FAIL in one year.

Oantoni has been know for his lack of D.. FOREVER.. get it EVERY YEAR..

Was the bobcats good on D???
Did they make the playoffs under LB???
Was they good on D before he got there??
Was detroit good on D???

on O'antoni's hire by the Knicks

Daily News

Besides Walsh's credibility taking a hit, the Knicks' president is also taking a risk on a coach whose up-tempo style works only with certain types of players. Also, D'Antoni has a reputation as a coach who does not stress defense.
When Walsh was hired last month, he talked of the importance of reestablishing the team's defensive culture. Instead, he hired a coach who angered his bosses in Phoenix because the team wouldn't defend enough. Under D'Antoni, the Suns went 26-25 in the postseason, including a first-round loss to San Antonio in five games this year.
"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Since none of us are visionaries.....history is our best guide

of course a RIVAL head coach would say that....
and the knick team that coach is talking about, is a totally different knick team that we have now.

that article is like from what....07?

moneyg · Mar 1, 2011

http://www.yardbarker.com/nba/artic...en_asked_if_dantoni_practices_defense/2575583

When you talk to Suns officials they mostly have good things to say about D'Antoni. The biggest knocks I heard when I covered the Suns-Blazers series is that D'Antoni is stubborn and that he doesn't emphasize defense. We've all seen that firsthand.

Mike denies all charges even though when you ask some Knick players if they ever practice defense they'll laugh and say "are you kidding me."

This should be a powerful lesson for the Knicks and their head coach. The Suns have proven they can win without D'Antoni but D'Antoni has yet to prove he can win without the Suns. He'll get players this summer. Maybe even LeBron James will come. But it's not just about upgrading the roster. It's about D'Antoni admitting that the one fatal flaw to his system is that his teams don't defend and doing something about it.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/antoni_defense_gives_opponents_too_7tnMwIkDp0dpyhHACI6gWK

D'Antoni's de-emphasis on defense has never been a secret. In fact, it was at the very heart of his departure from Phoenix following last season. With the Suns' defensive deficiencies having led to playoff letdowns year after year, general manager Steve Kerr pressured D'Antoni to hire a defensive specialist as an assistant. D'Antoni felt slighted and disrespected by Kerr's request and subsequently bolted Phoenix for New York.

side note....His brother Dan is our defensive mastermind/coordinator

MusketeerX · Mar 1, 2011

Toons said:
ummm, angry much? those worthy? you think that because you post on an internet forum that it gives you status? Dont come at me like that, cuz i never came at you like that. I was adding and providing proof that the coach does teach defense. I am of the persuasion that its all about effort, and the players drive to win. A coach can only do so much. Dantoni cant do anything right in your eyes anyway. So it makes no sense talkin to idiots like you. We added jefferies today, who is a mike d fav. and he is mostly known for his defensive game. Gallo was considered a favorite and an untouchable but now he is gone, dispelling the popular talk around here that gallo will never be included in a trade because of his people. Mike d hates bigs because he didnt play mozgov, well he is collecting DNP's for george carl right now. We even had assholes hating on mike D for not playing eddy curry. How does a coach that doesnt teach defense go after defensive players? We wont win a championship with mike d's tight 7-8 man rotation.....well he has played a 9-10 man rotation from since we got enough players to do so. I guess u will always find something wrong with the coach.....so keep hatin

Mozgov doesn't play because Karl already has two bigs that are really good. Just goes to show you that they could have held back on giving them Mozgov.... I won't blame them for it, though. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Mike does play favorites... you know he does. Players have said he does on numerous occasions. Also... dude.... Anthony Carter, Renaldo Balkman are not the players that make him able to play a 10 man roster now.

Our team was more balanced before (though it still wasn't balanced too well) and he only played 7-8 players. Walker couldn't find playing time. Mozgov was benched for 2-2/1/2 months. Anthony Randolph never saw the court unless there was garbage (minutes) on it.

The problem MDA is running into now... and I said it in the other thread... is that the inmates (players) are running the asylum. Billups is slowing down the offense and the players are calling the coach out on his (lack of) defensive mindset. If he wants to keep his job, he NEEDS to keep Billups and Melo (half-court players) happy. That is why he decided to have a defensive practice -- not because he had an epiphany, but because the players wanted it.

Let's be honest. MDA is what he is: a one dimensional coach that lives off a gimmick.

I'm beating a dead horse but Mike D is probably the problem

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