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Thread: I'm beating a dead horse but Mike D is probably the problem

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    and im watching this heat knicks game again, in the huddle, dantoni preaches defense, tells them to dig in, stay at home, and gang rebound the opponents. most interesting, to end the huddle, dantoni said...''defense on 3'' 1...2...3...(everyone) ''DEFENSE!''

    at the start of the second q, mike was being interviewd and was asked about anthony carter, dantoni's reply was again, based on defense.

    Oh boy......

    MDA "preaches" defense in the huddle, then goes 1,2,3...

    So I guess that's the answer then. Just preach and go 1,2,3


    Wow, I'll just reserve my comments for those worthy.

    Now let's stfu on 3!

    1,2,3!

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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    The three teams you mentioned:

    The Bulls
    The Spurs
    The Celtics

    What do they all have in common? They all have legitimate center options:

    Bulls:
    Noah - a good defender before Tom Thibodeau got there
    Boozer - a very good rebounder

    Spurs:
    Duncan - a very good defender
    Blair - a very good rebounder, even in college

    Celtics:
    Garnett who you admitted was a good defender
    Kendrick Perkins (before the trade) - a good rebounder, big body inside
    Glenn Davis - a good rebounder, big body inside
    Shaq - big body inside


    Who are/were our center options and bodies in the middle:
    Ronny Turiaf - good, but undersized
    Stoudemire - who never played defense, even under Alvin Gentry, isn't a great rebounder
    Mozgov - a project European undrafted rookie who didn't rebound well early
    Curry - enough said

    Notice the difference between the THREE squads you mentioned and ours in terms of just talent and the roster?
    This is not true of the Bulls and Celts for much of the year. Bulls relied on Kurt Thomas (who played very well -- love the guy, but is a small, undersized center). Celtics were playing Glen Davis at Center for awhile and winning most of their games.

    The Spurs may have Duncan and Blair, but their 1-3 are poor defenders. They play great team defense, though, and always have. Popvich is a good coach like that. And, no offense to Duncan, but he is old and lost a few steps...

    All of these teams have won because they play great team defense. And, given we just claimed some guy i've never heard of before, and he's 6'8, and no pure center is in our foreseeable future, D'Antoni better learn how to coach team defense quickly.

    But, a tall, big guy who can alter shots definitely helps, which is why Mozgov should not have been benched for much of the year. D'Antoni has shown himself to be inept in many respects -- defense in the top two of the many ways he fails as a coach.

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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    This is not true of the Bulls and Celts for much of the year. Bulls relied on Kurt Thomas (who played very well -- love the guy, but is a small, undersized center). Celtics were playing Glen Davis at Center for awhile and winning most of their games.

    The Spurs may have Duncan and Blair, but their 1-3 are poor defenders. They play great team defense, though, and always have. Popvich is a good coach like that. And, no offense to Duncan, but he is old and lost a few steps...

    All of these teams have won because they play great team defense. And, given we just claimed some guy i've never heard of before, and he's 6'8, and no pure center is in our foreseeable future, D'Antoni better learn how to coach team defense quickly.

    But, a tall, big guy who can alter shots definitely helps, which is why Mozgov should not have been benched for much of the year. D'Antoni has shown himself to be inept in many respects -- defense in the top two of the many ways he fails as a coach.

    Great points, I see you understand.

    Kurt Thomas 6'9"
    Perkins 6'10"
    Blair 6'9"

    Size is one thing, team oriented defense another.
    Preaching is one thing, teaching and devloping skills is another.

    The measure of a coach is reflected in the impact he has on the individuals and team as a whole.

    Is there positive defensive impact on any player worthy of mentioning throughout MDA's career? Don't think so.

    How about a positive impact or improvement defensively for a team under MDA? Not at all.

    If a player makes a greater impact than a coach, then what does that say about that coach?

    If a player performs at a certain level (defensively) under MDA, then improves defensively under a different coach, what does that say?

    If HUNDREDS of coaches, players, writers, bloggers and front office persons (after analyzing YEARS worth of games, and thousands of possessions) conclude that MDA lacks defensive coaching ability and further that had been determined his weak point, what does that say?

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Great points, I see you understand.

    Kurt Thomas 6'9"
    Perkins 6'10"
    Blair 6'9"

    Size is one thing, team oriented defense another.
    Preaching is one thing, teaching and devloping skills is another.

    The measure of a coach is reflected in the impact he has on the individuals and team as a whole.

    Is there positive defensive impact on any player worthy of mentioning throughout MDA's career? Don't think so.

    How about a positive impact or improvement defensively for a team under MDA? Not at all.

    If a player makes a greater impact than a coach, then what does that say about that coach?

    If a player performs at a certain level (defensively) under MDA, then improves defensively under a different coach, what does that say?

    If HUNDREDS of coaches, players, writers, bloggers and front office persons (after analyzing YEARS worth of games, and thousands of possessions) conclude that MDA lacks defensive coaching ability and further that had been determined his weak point, what does that say?

    on the money...

    larry brown, tom tibs, mike brown have always been known for their defensive strategies..O'antoni....really

    at least mike brown knew he wasnt that good on the offense..and had his assistant calling the offensive plays....

    o'antoni didnt even want to hire a defensive minded asst. coach...so what that that tell you about this stubborn fool

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    Originally Posted by moneyg
    on the money...

    larry brown, tom tibs, mike brown have always been known for their defensive strategies..O'antoni....really

    at least mike brown knew he wasnt that good on the offense..and had his assistant calling the offensive plays....

    o'antoni didnt even want to hire a defensive minded asst. coach...so what that that tell you about this stubborn fool
    Tell me why we were rated 27th in the league in PPG and were one of the weakest defensive teams when Larry Brown was our coach. Oh thats right! Coaches can't make up for a lack of talent on the defensive end.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Tell me why we were rated 27th in the league in PPG and were one of the weakest defensive teams when Larry Brown was our coach. Oh thats right! Coaches can't make up for a lack of talent on the defensive end.
    what was our opponents FG% that year??..where was that ranked??....thats the real way to judge defense.. at least that waht O'antoni says...its the only thing i agree with him as far as defensive goes.....

    how long did larry brown coach the knicks that year???

    Brown admited he failed in NY....i can knock him for a FAIL in one year.

    Oantoni has been know for his lack of D.. FOREVER.. get it EVERY YEAR..

    Was the bobcats good on D???
    Did they make the playoffs under LB???
    Was they good on D before he got there??
    Was detroit good on D???

    on O'antoni's hire by the Knicks

    Daily News

    Besides Walsh's credibility taking a hit, the Knicks' president is also taking a risk on a coach whose up-tempo style works only with certain types of players. Also, D'Antoni has a reputation as a coach who does not stress defense.
    When Walsh was hired last month, he talked of the importance of reestablishing the team's defensive culture. Instead, he hired a coach who angered his bosses in Phoenix because the team wouldn't defend enough. Under D'Antoni, the Suns went 26-25 in the postseason, including a first-round loss to San Antonio in five games this year.
    "I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

    Since none of us are visionaries.....history is our best guide

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Oh boy......

    MDA "preaches" defense in the huddle, then goes 1,2,3...

    So I guess that's the answer then. Just preach and go 1,2,3


    Wow, I'll just reserve my comments for those worthy.

    Now let's stfu on 3!

    1,2,3!
    ummm, angry much? those worthy? you think that because you post on an internet forum that it gives you status? Dont come at me like that, cuz i never came at you like that. I was adding and providing proof that the coach does teach defense. I am of the persuasion that its all about effort, and the players drive to win. A coach can only do so much. Dantoni cant do anything right in your eyes anyway. So it makes no sense talkin to idiots like you. We added jefferies today, who is a mike d fav. and he is mostly known for his defensive game. Gallo was considered a favorite and an untouchable but now he is gone, dispelling the popular talk around here that gallo will never be included in a trade because of his people. Mike d hates bigs because he didnt play mozgov, well he is collecting DNP's for george carl right now. We even had *******s hating on mike D for not playing eddy curry. How does a coach that doesnt teach defense go after defensive players? We wont win a championship with mike d's tight 7-8 man rotation.....well he has played a 9-10 man rotation from since we got enough players to do so. I guess u will always find something wrong with the coach.....so keep hatin

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    Originally Posted by moneyg
    what was our opponents FG% that year??..where was that ranked??....thats the real way to judge defense.. at least that waht O'antoni says...its the only thing i agree with him as far as defensive goes.....

    how long did larry brown coach the knicks that year???

    Brown admited he failed in NY....i can knock him for a FAIL in one year.

    Oantoni has been know for his lack of D.. FOREVER.. get it EVERY YEAR..

    Was the bobcats good on D???
    Did they make the playoffs under LB???
    Was they good on D before he got there??
    Was detroit good on D???

    on O'antoni's hire by the Knicks

    Daily News

    Besides Walsh's credibility taking a hit, the Knicks' president is also taking a risk on a coach whose up-tempo style works only with certain types of players. Also, D'Antoni has a reputation as a coach who does not stress defense.
    When Walsh was hired last month, he talked of the importance of reestablishing the team's defensive culture. Instead, he hired a coach who angered his bosses in Phoenix because the team wouldn't defend enough. Under D'Antoni, the Suns went 26-25 in the postseason, including a first-round loss to San Antonio in five games this year.
    "I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

    Since none of us are visionaries.....history is our best guide
    of course a RIVAL head coach would say that....
    and the knick team that coach is talking about, is a totally different knick team that we have now.

    that article is like from what....07?

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    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    When you talk to Suns officials they mostly have good things to say about D'Antoni. The biggest knocks I heard when I covered the Suns-Blazers series is that D'Antoni is stubborn and that he doesn't emphasize defense. We've all seen that firsthand.

    Mike denies all charges even though when you ask some Knick players if they ever practice defense they'll laugh and say "are you kidding me."

    This should be a powerful lesson for the Knicks and their head coach. The Suns have proven they can win without D'Antoni but D'Antoni has yet to prove he can win without the Suns. He'll get players this summer. Maybe even LeBron James will come. But it's not just about upgrading the roster. It's about D'Antoni admitting that the one fatal flaw to his system is that his teams don't defend and doing something about it.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    D'Antoni's de-emphasis on defense has never been a secret. In fact, it was at the very heart of his departure from Phoenix following last season. With the Suns' defensive deficiencies having led to playoff letdowns year after year, general manager Steve Kerr pressured D'Antoni to hire a defensive specialist as an assistant. D'Antoni felt slighted and disrespected by Kerr's request and subsequently bolted Phoenix for New York.

    side note....His brother Dan is our defensive mastermind/coordinator

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    ummm, angry much? those worthy? you think that because you post on an internet forum that it gives you status? Dont come at me like that, cuz i never came at you like that. I was adding and providing proof that the coach does teach defense. I am of the persuasion that its all about effort, and the players drive to win. A coach can only do so much. Dantoni cant do anything right in your eyes anyway. So it makes no sense talkin to idiots like you. We added jefferies today, who is a mike d fav. and he is mostly known for his defensive game. Gallo was considered a favorite and an untouchable but now he is gone, dispelling the popular talk around here that gallo will never be included in a trade because of his people. Mike d hates bigs because he didnt play mozgov, well he is collecting DNP's for george carl right now. We even had *******s hating on mike D for not playing eddy curry. How does a coach that doesnt teach defense go after defensive players? We wont win a championship with mike d's tight 7-8 man rotation.....well he has played a 9-10 man rotation from since we got enough players to do so. I guess u will always find something wrong with the coach.....so keep hatin
    Mozgov doesn't play because Karl already has two bigs that are really good. Just goes to show you that they could have held back on giving them Mozgov.... I won't blame them for it, though. Hindsight is always 20/20.

    Mike does play favorites... you know he does. Players have said he does on numerous occasions. Also... dude.... Anthony Carter, Renaldo Balkman are not the players that make him able to play a 10 man roster now.

    Our team was more balanced before (though it still wasn't balanced too well) and he only played 7-8 players. Walker couldn't find playing time. Mozgov was benched for 2-2/1/2 months. Anthony Randolph never saw the court unless there was garbage (minutes) on it.

    The problem MDA is running into now... and I said it in the other thread... is that the inmates (players) are running the asylum. Billups is slowing down the offense and the players are calling the coach out on his (lack of) defensive mindset. If he wants to keep his job, he NEEDS to keep Billups and Melo (half-court players) happy. That is why he decided to have a defensive practice -- not because he had an epiphany, but because the players wanted it.

    Let's be honest. MDA is what he is: a one dimensional coach that lives off a gimmick.

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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    Mozgov doesn't play because Karl already has two bigs that are really good. Just goes to show you that they could have held back on giving them Mozgov.... I won't blame them for it, though. Hindsight is always 20/20.

    Mike does play favorites... you know he does. Players have said he does on numerous occasions. Also... dude.... Anthony Carter, Renaldo Balkman are not the players that make him able to play a 10 man roster now.
    Our team was more balanced before (though it still wasn't balanced too well) and he only played 7-8 players. Walker couldn't find playing time. Mozgov was benched for 2-2/1/2 months. Anthony Randolph never saw the court unless there was garbage (minutes) on it.

    The problem MDA is running into now... and I said it in the other thread... is that the inmates (players) are running the asylum. Billups is slowing down the offense and the players are calling the coach out on his (lack of) defensive mindset. If he wants to keep his job, he NEEDS to keep Billups and Melo (half-court players) happy. That is why he decided to have a defensive practice -- not because he had an epiphany, but because the players wanted it.

    Let's be honest. MDA is what he is: a one dimensional coach that lives off a gimmick.
    that goes to prove my pint that mozgov is not really good. not that you ever said he was really good, but in another thread it was stated after he had that one good game, that he should be getting consistent minutes.

    Im sure kobe is phil jacksons favorite player on the team, and duncan is pops fav as well. So what.

    Sooo, they didnt play in the miami game? balkman and carter played valuable minutes in our win over miami. The fact of the matter is, it has evolved into an offense to incorperate more players than before.

    when have the PLAYERS called the coach out? what i read, and heard was that mike called billups, amare and melo aside and had a meeting with them, then mike called a meeting with the team to discuss defense for a few hours. where did it come from that the players were calling the shots? last player that undermined dantoni was marbury, and look where he is now.

    yes, dantoni doesnt hang his hat on defense, but he does stress it, and with a defensive minded centre, we are in the hunt for a ring

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    that goes to prove my pint that mozgov is not really good. not that you ever said he was really good, but in another thread it was stated after he had that one good game, that he should be getting consistent minutes.

    Im sure kobe is phil jacksons favorite player on the team, and duncan is pops fav as well. So what.

    Sooo, they didnt play in the miami game? balkman and carter played valuable minutes in our win over miami. The fact of the matter is, it has evolved into an offense to incorperate more players than before.

    when have the PLAYERS called the coach out? what i read, and heard was that mike called billups, amare and melo aside and had a meeting with them, then mike called a meeting with the team to discuss defense for a few hours. where did it come from that the players were calling the shots? last player that undermined dantoni was marbury, and look where he is now.

    yes, dantoni doesnt hang his hat on defense, but he does stress it, and with a defensive minded centre, we are in the hunt for a ring
    Don't you know this is the latest made up BS by people who despise D'ant? They fully expect the Knicks to play better ball now that we have our own version of a "Big Three" and they want to preempt any credit D'ant may get. Now it's that D'ant is a "figurehead" with no power and it's really Billiups and Melo running the show...

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    Originally Posted by Toons
    that goes to prove my pint that mozgov is not really good. not that you ever said he was really good, but in another thread it was stated after he had that one good game, that he should be getting consistent minutes.

    Im sure kobe is phil jacksons favorite player on the team, and duncan is pops fav as well. So what.

    Sooo, they didnt play in the miami game? balkman and carter played valuable minutes in our win over miami. The fact of the matter is, it has evolved into an offense to incorperate more players than before.

    when have the PLAYERS called the coach out? what i read, and heard was that mike called billups, amare and melo aside and had a meeting with them, then mike called a meeting with the team to discuss defense for a few hours. where did it come from that the players were calling the shots? last player that undermined dantoni was marbury, and look where he is now.

    yes, dantoni doesnt hang his hat on defense, but he does stress it, and with a defensive minded centre, we are in the hunt for a ring
    Mozgov could have been better. he wasn't excellent, but just having a Big helps. He should have seen playing time.

    My point is that they played one game, and that playing that many players is an anomaly for D'Antoni. My other point is that the reason why he did it then was not because of his own devices.

    Melo and Billups came in and then all of a sudden MDA is clamoring for a defensive practice? That doesn't strike you as odd at all?

    D'Antoni doesn't and never has stressed defense. There have multiple quotes from league officials, NBA analysts, media and other coaches that have expressed as much in this thread. We've seen the Knicks lack of defense all year that begs to differ with you.

    D'Antoni is a one trick pony.

    We are in bottom third in points per possession and have a point differential of .4 at ~106ppg. That is horrible. Just horrendous.

    Hopefully our defensive effort is consistent from hereon out, but it was one game. We'll see how they continue to play.

    Even with a defensive center, I don't think we are in the hunt for a ring. This team still needs a lot of work. I think we made huge, significant steps towards it, but we still have some work to do.

    I think next year with a proper center, and some more depth in the back-up front court spots and a pure point guard, we are a contender.

    We are missing pieces, though:
    1. A starting center
    2. A back-up center
    3. A viable sixth-man (I like TD, and maybe he can become it, but he's not consistent enough at the moment)
    4. A back-up pure point guard.
    1) Billups/????Missing back up PG/Toney
    2) Landry/Bill Walker/Toney
    3) Melo/Shawne Williams/Bill Walker
    4) Amar'e/Jared Jeffries/Ronny Turiaf/Shawne Williams
    5) ?????/???????/Ronny Turiaf

    I would prefer a combo 2/3 six man. Love TD, and hope he really learns a lot form Billups, but he is too small to play 2 guard.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Don't you know this is the latest made up BS by people who despise D'ant? They fully expect the Knicks to play better ball now that we have our own version of a "Big Three" and they want to preempt any credit D'ant may get. Now it's that D'ant is a "figurehead" with no power and it's really Billiups and Melo running the show...
    But they are running the show. Why do you think we have been stressing the need to improve defensively? Why do you think our new leaders went out of their way in every interview to mention what they feel we need? Because they're letting everyone know from fans to D'antoni to Walsh they know what's needed and where the weak points are.

    It really is a win-win. You get to keep your coach, we get to root for players who have enough clout to circumvent D'Antoni's limitations. Perfect.

    With every new signing (especially stars) we effectively reduce D'Antoni's negative impact. Lovely. Its not that players will make D'Antoni better, its the players that will overcome this coaches limitations.

    Teaching and preaching are different.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Don't you know this is the latest made up BS by people who despise D'ant? They fully expect the Knicks to play better ball now that we have our own version of a "Big Three" and they want to preempt any credit D'ant may get. Now it's that D'ant is a "figurehead" with no power and it's really Billiups and Melo running the show...

    Not the only one who is thinking so:

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