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Thread: What a defensive coach can do for you

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    Default What a defensive coach can do for you

    Hey guys,

    I was curious to see how much of a difference a coach can make on the defensive end. I think a large debate going on these boards is player hustle v. coach. I maintain, and will say this up front, that both are important.

    However, I do distinguish between team defense and individual efforts on defense. I don't think our teams problem is with the latter. I truly believe that our team wants to play defense. I think they hustle and show great energy.

    I think that you can see this in certain games. Look at Miami and New Orleans. Miami is particularly telling in my opinion. Miami is a one on one offensive team. They don't move the ball much and in many situations count on one of their big three to create plays. When this happens, our guys only have to play their man. They don't have to worry about switches or rotations. Their hustle won them those games.

    However, when they play a team like Cleveland that absolutely relies on passing the ball, cuts, curls and pick and rolls, the Knicks get confused. They show an utter lack of defensive IQ, lose their assignments, and don't know where to rotate.

    Side note: they also have no zone defense.

    "A coach's job is to make them understand assignments [and] holding them accountable." -- Hubie Brown.

    I don't think D'Antoni does any of the above. They are a relatively new team, but even before the trade, they were still showing some of the boneheaded moves they make on defense.

    I have amassed some stats, which I think shows how, either a new attitude on defense by D'Antoni, or a new defensive minded coach can help us greatly (whether an assistant or head coach). Please find them below.

    They use the Points Allowed Per 100 possessions for each individual player, and I think the stats are eye-opening. Now, you will see some stats where Amar'e's career defensive rating in this category is better than some of the guards -- please remember he plays a different position and that his defensive rating in this category should be lower. It is much more helpful to compare him to other centers/forwards.

    First and Foremost, we start with the Bulls.
    As you will notice, each player's stats below on the defensive end become better (including players who were already considered to be better defensive players). Pay particular attention to Carlos Boozer's, Derrick Rose's and Ronnie Brewer's. You will notice that under Tommy their points allowed per 100 possessions dropped significantly this year.

    The main purpose of this is to show how both good and poor defensive players stats can be bettered with set defensive schemes and coach emphasized defense.

    Now, their offense still sucks, but their defense has made them a top three team in the East and potential Championship contenders.

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SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> Derrick Rose
    1) 2009-10:109
    2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
    3) Career: 109

    Boozer
    1) 2009-10: 102
    2) 2010-11: 99 (Tommy)
    3) Career: 103

    Ronnie Brewer
    1) 2009-10: 108
    2) 2010-11: 98
    3) Career: 105

    Keith Bogans
    1) 2009-2010: 106
    2) 2010-2011: 103
    3) Career: 107

    Deng
    1) 2009-10: 106
    2) 2010-11: 102 (Tommy)
    3) Career: 104

    Noah
    1) 2009-10: 101
    2) 2010-11: 96 (Tommy)
    3) Career: 102


    Next, we look at our New New York Knicks
    Our players are not as good on the defensive end. Hell Amar'e stats were
    even worse than Boozer's. But, the point here is two fold: (1) To show D'Antoni's offense has made our players worse on the defensive end; (2) To show that our players are not that far off from others.

    You will notice that since the "new" Knicks came over, (though the games played are not a large enough statistical sample and that they still need time to jive together), that the numbers decreased significantly. Both by three points.

    But, if you look at Chauncey and Derrick Rose, Billups' defensive stats were actually better career wise. You should also compare his stats while in Denver to Derrick Rose's stats last year (with Thib): Billups was a better defender.

    Additinonally, Melo's stats are very similar to Brewer and Bogans (who both have showed significant improvement this year under a defensive minded coach).

    Amar'e for his position is below average, but if Boozer can go under 100, then I would imagine so can Amar'e.

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QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> Carmelo Anthony
    1) 2009-10: 109
    2) 2010-11 (Denver): 108
    3) 2010-11 (Knicks): 111
    4) Career: 107

    Chauncey Billups
    1) 2009-10: 110
    2) 2010-11 (Denver): 108
    3) 2010-11 (Knicks): 111
    4) Career: 107

    Amar’e Stoudemire
    1) 2009-2010: 109
    2) 2010-2011: 107
    3) Career: 105

    Lastly, we are not the Bulls, but there is a team that runs a faster paced offense, who also has great defense, in the San Antonio Spurs.


    I I believe we should very much strive to be like this team. You will notice that this year, despite their pace being quicker (2010-11: Pace: 92.5 (13th of 30) vs. 2009-10 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 91.7 (20th of 30)) they are putting up better defensive and offensive numbers.


    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 110.0 (9th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.5 (8th of 30)
    2010-2011: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 111.6 (2nd of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 103.9 (7th of 30)


    And the same can be said of their individual numbers:

    Tim Duncan 1) 2009-2010: 101
    2) 2010-211: 99 (Faster pace, better defense than year before)
    3) Career: 95

    Tony Parker
    1) 2009-2010: 108
    2) 2010-2011: 106 (Faster pace, better defense than year before)
    3) Career: 104

    Manu Ginobli (much better defender than I realized
    1) 2009-2010: 104
    2) 2010-2011: 103 (Faster pace, better defense than year before)
    3) Career: 99




    The point of this is to show that we don't need Tommy Bull's numbers to win. Quite simply if we just enact some great defensive strategies (that everyone is on board with and knows how go about), we can become one of the best teams in the NBA.



    C Coaching does matter, however. We need to slow down our pace, and concentrate more on defense if we are ever truly going to become elite. Our players can learn. They have shown hustle and energy and there are glimpse there.



    But as Hubie said -- the coach has to give them a strategy and hold them accountable.
    Last edited by MusketeerX; Mar 07, 2011 at 01:21.

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    that's what Ive been trying to say along (w/o the statical jargon) that if we hired a d mined assistant coach to go along with dantani explosive offensive then we are definitely championship bound but the concepts and strategies must be in placed and enforced

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    Dude...you compare us to the Spurs? The Spurs?

    Their defensive improvement from last year (in those three players) is modest improvement, mainly because they have added superior surrounding players who are defensive +'s in their own rights (Blair, eg, who has come into his own), and having depth to keep their frontline players fresh.

    Freshness = the ability to make the key defensive stop, and keep the intensity high.

    Maybe when a defensive wizard or naturally strong defender doesn't need surrounding circumstances to improve his defense, but mediocre or sub-par ones do.

    And right now we have stank ass depth, no C, and over rely on offensively brilliant players to turn on their defensive chops at the most difficult and least-likely of times.

    Would Tibs improve our D? Pop?

    Of course! They are also defensive wunderkinds as coaches. We won't be getting them, or anything close in caliber.

    Now,

    Give us a legit starting C...any sort of legit, rounded out bench that includes some defensive 1trick ponies...and the time for our current players to gel...

    You don't think we will experience, even if MDA doesn't change **** in his approach or deviate from where you think he is at, a dramatic improvement in D?

    Especially the ability to get key defensive stops, especially late in games?

    Now combine that with what will essentially be the NBA's #1 or #2 offense....

    I agree point differential per/100 is a great metric. And ours will be tremendous.

    Defensive wizards MAKE OTHERS BETTER.

    The celtics? Random that Garnett made the other stars get their **** together defensively, along with Perkins?

    Or the (*now*) praised Pau Gasol....He just happens to go to a team with naturally gifted defenders and guys who crave defense...And he becomes a hardened 2way player?

    Cmon....The Center position at any rate is the premium position, especially for defense -- a surprise Chicago has one of the most vocal, demanding and solid defensive centers?

    Or the Spurs with Duncan?

    Our offense is and will remain #1 or close to with MDA. We can agree on this.

    Our defense WILL make great strides simply by making shrewd decisions on players. And defensive coaches. Even if MDA is as bad as you say, and doesn't change.

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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Dude...you compare us to the Spurs? The Spurs?

    Their defensive improvement from last year (in those three players) is modest improvement, mainly because they have added superior surrounding players who are defensive +'s in their own rights (Blair, eg, who has come into his own), and having depth to keep their frontline players fresh.

    Freshness = the ability to make the key defensive stop, and keep the intensity high.

    Maybe when a defensive wizard or naturally strong defender doesn't need surrounding circumstances to improve his defense, but mediocre or sub-par ones do.

    And right now we have stank ass depth, no C, and over rely on offensively brilliant players to turn on their defensive chops at the most difficult and least-likely of times.

    Would Tibs improve our D? Pop?

    Of course! They are also defensive wunderkinds as coaches. We won't be getting them, or anything close in caliber.

    Now,

    Give us a legit starting C...any sort of legit, rounded out bench that includes some defensive 1trick ponies...and the time for our current players to gel...

    You don't think we will experience, even if MDA doesn't change **** in his approach or deviate from where you think he is at, a dramatic improvement in D?

    Especially the ability to get key defensive stops, especially late in games?

    Now combine that with what will essentially be the NBA's #1 or #2 offense....

    I agree point differential per/100 is a great metric. And ours will be tremendous.

    Defensive wizards MAKE OTHERS BETTER.

    The celtics? Random that Garnett made the other stars get their **** together defensively, along with Perkins?

    Or the (*now*) praised Pau Gasol....He just happens to go to a team with naturally gifted defenders and guys who crave defense...And he becomes a hardened 2way player?

    Cmon....The Center position at any rate is the premium position, especially for defense -- a surprise Chicago has one of the most vocal, demanding and solid defensive centers?

    Or the Spurs with Duncan?

    Our offense is and will remain #1 or close to with MDA. We can agree on this.

    Our defense WILL make great strides simply by making shrewd decisions on players. And defensive coaches. Even if MDA is as bad as you say, and doesn't change.
    I'm not comparing us to the Spurs. I'm saying we should strive to be like the Spurs. Our prob is more than just a center. Duncan is older, not putting up the same stats. They play great D becausr of their coach. Experience helps, but as you can tell by the stats, D'Antoni's offense makes players defensive ratings get worse.

    We need a coach (assistant or head) that emphasizes defensive focus and intensity. We will never be an elite team without it.
    Last edited by MusketeerX; Mar 07, 2011 at 00:54.

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    Has Dantoni not been focusing on defense lately? He said it himself that the team would focus on defense first and the offense would naturally follow.

    We have a brand new team who's lineup has just been completely shuffled by trades yet again. Give it time before you throw up random stats of teams that are in no way the same situation as us.

    iSaYughh brings up a good point on how great defensive players make everyone else better. We don't even have a start worthy center on the team. How can we expect to match the Spur's and Laker's interior defense without a real big? I hate to say it, but please grow a backbone and get some patience.

    Part of the fun is watching your team grow. Don't panic at every single negative thing and demand immediate gratification.

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    Originally Posted by iJoe
    Has Dantoni not been focusing on defense lately? He said it himself that the team would focus on defense first and the offense would naturally follow.

    We have a brand new team who's lineup has just been completely shuffled by trades yet again. Give it time before you throw up random stats of teams that are in no way the same situation as us.

    iSaYughh brings up a good point on how great defensive players make everyone else better. We don't even have a start worthy center on the team. How can we expect to match the Spur's and Laker's interior defense without a real big? I hate to say it, but please grow a backbone and get some patience.

    Part of the fun is watching your team grow. Don't panic at every single negative thing and demand immediate gratification.
    Joe the stats are there. Maybe D'antoni is changing his stripesm maybe he's not. A center won't matter w/o a real emphais on defense. The spurs have a simliar team to in style. To have a such an undying commitment to D'Antoni that you are wlling to ignore hard numbers is sad to me.

    Let me remind you that the Bulls put up those numbers w/o Noah for much of the year.

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    Until you all actually sit courtside & watch D'Antoni run Knick practices... Don't sit here behind a computer & say "D'Antoni doesn't teach defense". I never played college ball but I played ball from elementary to HS. Never missed a year. My HS coach was pretty good @ teaching defense too. If coach Redding was teaching defense, well, then... You better believe D'Antoni teaches defense as well; but only 10x better.

    Melo is a much better defender than Gallo.

    Jeffries is 10x the defender Mozgov will ever become.

    Douglas & Carer make for a much better defensive duo when compared to Felton & Douglas. Carter is one tough old man. Pesky as pesky come.

    If D'Antoni had this team during the offseason... We'd rank top 15 in defense. No doubt about it. Going from Gallo & Mozgov to Melo & Jeffries was a HUGE upgrade. Adding a big like Williams helps too. Keep in mind... Turiaf has also been hurt.

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    I will try to answer you all iin kind here, but I am on a phone, so excuse my errors. A center does matter, but we have much more significant problems in that our guys are lost when trying to defend as a team. I SHOWED increased numbers on the defensive end that show how Tommy nade each one of his players a better defender. Derrek Rose in particular is having an amazing season on both ends of the court.

    Queens, I. Know he doesn't teach D b/c his players have said as much. I know he doesn't teac D b/c he has said as much. He is n offensive minded coach, for sure, and that is what he will focus on. With our guys, however, they are so talented offensively that we will ge our ponts no matter what.

    The reason I posted about the Spurs is to show an example of the type of pace on offense and defense we need to run. I want a defensive minded head or assistant coach as I believe it will propel us to a top team in th league.

    We are doing better defensively (still showing our lapses) b/c we have slowed down the offense. But if you watched last night, we still don't know how to defend a simple pick and roll. A simple solution is to use the Jeffries zone, but for whatever reason he went away from it in the 4th.... we won't shoot like we havein the last 2 games on a nightly basis. We need D to win against the true elite teams... I look forward to tonight's game, on that note. But if you guys believe we get a C and all of a sudden we are a championship team, then you are sorely mistaken. That Memphis team gave us a run for our money withpout Rudy Gay. Their D was great... we were just hitting ridiculous shots. We got lucky wikth the win... D insures that we don't need luck to win.

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    Not sure how you can say we "got lucky" with that game when we dominated 3 full quarters of play without Billups, on the road, & they shot like 30 more free throws than us. Wanna talk about luck? They were lucky they didn't lose by 15-20+ points.

    The Knicks aready contenders out of the East. Give us a real center such as Jordan, Dalember or Marc Gasol just to name a few & the Knicks are championship contenders. Do you have any idea how much a true Center would improve our entire defense? By leaps & bounds. It's kind of hard to call D'Antoni the problem when all he does is win. Find me 3 Western Conf coaches or 3 teams that had a better winning % than D'Antoni & the Suns... You won't.

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    Originally Posted by KnicksFanFromQueens1985
    Not sure how you can say we "got lucky" with that game when we dominated 3 full quarters of play without Billups, on the road, & they shot like 30 more free throws than us. Wanna talk about luck? They were lucky they didn't lose by 15-20+ points.

    The Knicks aready contenders out of the East. Give us a real center such as Jordan, Dalember or Marc Gasol just to name a few & the Knicks are championship contenders. Do you have any idea how much a true Center would improve our entire defense? By leaps & bounds. It's kind of hard to call D'Antoni the problem when all he does is win. Find me 3 Western Conf coaches or 3 teams that had a better winning % than D'Antoni & the Suns... You won't.
    Yes we got lucky, we didn't play D for most of the game, were killed in points in the paint (meaning our 62percent throughout the first 3 Quarters was on jumpshots -- championship teams don't rely on Js to win), and shot 50% from behind the 3pt line. This was very much SSOL and we barely won. Memphis's D was very good. We didn't get to the line... we too a lot of jumpshots. Melo save us from a losss.... God Bless that man.

    We will not shoot like that every game... just won't. A C will help, but it is not the complete answer.... And, dude... let's be realistic... we are not contenders. Not this year. we would need a whole lot of luck for that. We will be, but not this year.

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    And f you don't believe me... I serendiptiously came across this article. You can read the first to analysis blurbs even if ur not an insider.

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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    And f you don't believe me... I serendiptiously came across this article. You can read the first to analysis blurbs even if ur not an insider.

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    Haha, ya and Bucher is a donkeyassed moron. Broussard -- and really the entire article -- defended the Knicks being able to build a champion with current team. MDA included.

    Bucher got another ass torn into him in this debate. Broussard slapped him around like a pimp to a worthless street ho unable to bring home even a slice cheddar.

    Modest growth by Fields, overall team gelling, get a legit 6th (out of our current crew), and bring in any sort of qualified C....We will contend with the best.

    The questions will begin again tho as Billups realistically will be a 1yr (top talent) but rental player for us next year. And we need to find a new pg within our core, or trade for one...or make a trade for a big team improvement while relying in Douglas (or a 2011 1st round draft choice) to man our PG going forward.

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    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

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    Originally Posted by KnicksFanFromQueens1985
    Not sure how you can say we "got lucky" with that game when we dominated 3 full quarters of play without Billups, on the road, & they shot like 30 more free throws than us. Wanna talk about luck? They were lucky they didn't lose by 15-20+ points.

    The Knicks aready contenders out of the East. Give us a real center such as Jordan, Dalember or Marc Gasol just to name a few & the Knicks are championship contenders. Do you have any idea how much a true Center would improve our entire defense? By leaps & bounds. It's kind of hard to call D'Antoni the problem when all he does is win. Find me 3 Western Conf coaches or 3 teams that had a better winning % than D'Antoni & the Suns... You won't.
    A center does not solve the problem. Will it help some, yes but DA still has to play the big man which goes against how he normally runs the offense. This team still needs more emphasis on team defense. A better defensive team creates more offensive opportunities as a whole. And THAT's a coaching issue.

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    rebounds also create a lot of offensive opperuntites. hence, a centre

    and thats a lack of players issue

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