Knicks V Pacers - Mar 13 + 15: Home And Away Double Thread Special

WrongIslander · Mar 13, 2011

mafra said:
THE SSOL aint nothing new... SHOWTIME Lakers ran a variation of it in the 80s. Notice how qucikly Riley altered his approach when he arrived in NY? Instantly went to a grind-it-out defensive-minded system. Would we have given Riley 3 years to work out the kinks?

This is what I'm getting at. WHO CARES ABOUT PHO? We're close to 3 seasons removed. We can't fire the players. Fair or not, MD is on the hot seat.

Let's say you're right, all I'm asking you to do is look at it fairly.

Say MDA fails at NY, there are more reasons to fail than just perceived poor defence and personally I think that my biggest worry my he and his approach may fail is everyone being on the same page.

Division doesn't work regardless of the sport. If MDA, Dolan and Walsh arn't on the same page then it's curtains regardless. Whatever the sport you must not only present but also have a united front.

Forget the names, if the coach is brought in to play a style then the man charged with getting him those players should be asking him what players fit his style not just buying them or trading for them. If the money man just wants to sell seats and shirts and isn't interested in chemistry? Well welcome to failure 101.

I'm not in anyway saying you may not be proved right about MDA being the wrong man but what I am saying is that there will be more than one reason that being the case and that more than one person will be to blame. I'm also saying he deserves a fair chance to fail.

It's easy to point out how poor the Knicks have been for 3 years, but it's also easy to miss out that MDA has worked under the kind of pressure and circumstances outside of his control in regards to his players that most coaches simply would never agree to.

iSaYughh · Mar 13, 2011

STAT1 said:
I completely agree, we need a nasty enforcer in the paint in the worst way imaginable. Ronnie Turiaf is more comedy relief than he is nasty, he's never going to command the type of respect on the team that a guy like Kenyon Martin would for example even though he does dish out some hard fouls in the paint. A Kendrick Perkins type acquisition is really what this team needs more than anything, someone who like you just said will be able to challenge his teammates in a huddle to step up their effort defensively & stop allowing wide open lanes to the paint for easy baskets. It's too bad Amare isn't stepping up on defense because really he's got it in him to be that type of enforcer that we need if he ever set his mind to it. & He definitely commands the respect of his teammates to inspire that same level of play from other guys. During tonight's game I saw him pumping up Ronnie Turiaf while they were making their run in the 4th quarter to get the deficit down to 10, & Ronnie pressed the Pacers into making a turnover on the very next possession. I still have my doubts concering MDA's philosophy but having a player like this on the roster would be a huge help.

Perfect description of Turiaf.

Looking at teams with great defenses...most, maybe all, have one player who commands that respect and is just a nasty player who personally loves D, and/or is a big dude who commands respect from being vocal and intense or just ridiculously sound and good.

Perkins/Garnett...whom Celtic players, fans, coach even...almost always say had a profound impact on the entire team and was critical in so quickly becoming respectable, defensive...and champions.

Noah/Deng with CHI.

Duncan.

Ben Wallace.

Etc.

It's a damn shame Perkins got swooped up by OKC.

Amare def does have the respect and skills, too..Honestly, if 2008 Garnett came here...and impacted Amare and Melo...like he did Rupaul and Allen.....

mafra · Mar 13, 2011

WrongIslander said:
There you go again talking about non facts like they are facts. English wasn't brought to England, a group of languages by many different tribes were brought to England and the language evolved through the Angles and Saxons and others to eventually become English. So really, neither of us were right but I wasn't the one trying to give the history lesson. Funny to say keep it to basketball though after you've just digressed into the birth of the English Language. Practice what you preach maybe?

I've not assumed you don't have relatives in Europe, I have relatives all over the globe and live in a very cultured and cosmopolitan city. I don't see how this is relevant to you hating on MDA's style though.

As for that part in bold, at what point did I ever ask for anything but this?

Nice quote, not one I'm familiar with perhaps one that MDA would do well to read and heed its words?

Shall we just stop with the one upmanship now? I'll be honest and admit I did make a presumption that you were a bit daft but that was only on mistaking your fanatical hatred of MDA for a lack of intelligence.

Passion can do different things to different people and we all have our roles to play I suppose. All I'd ask now that you've show yourself to be educated is to try and respond as such to MDA criticism and not get dragged down by the witchhunt which you clearly can show yourself above.

I think I'll differ to Jared Diamond... He knows a little bit more about this than you. He says English started in NW Europe and diffused around the globe. Read GUNS, GERMS & STEEL. But whatever...

I don't like MD's hubris. I actually think he's just been collecting his $ and going through the motions at times. These NBA players will take a mile if you give them a yard. His lax approach wont cut it. YES. Ultimately it's on the players to win/lose, execute and give the effort. YES, if Stern doesn't suspend half of PHO, they probably beat CLE and win NBA title.

I also think MD deserves blame when we lose at home to CLE and IND. It's just the way it goes in sports. Coaches get fired all the time.

I guess it all goes back to being selfish and drafting his godson over Gordon. And, in a way, we 've both been provben wrong with that decision.

KnicksFanFromQueens1985 · Mar 13, 2011

The Spurs are a DYNASTY. PHX lost 3 playoff series against SA with a record of 3-12.

But you don't lead your team to a record of 22-13 inside an EXTREMELY tough Western Conf against the Lakers, Mavs, Grizz & Clippers without being a good coach.

14 of those 22 wins were against the Lakers & Mavs.

You don't beat the Lakers 4-1 without defense. You don't beat the LAKERS during a deciding game 7 unless your an outstanding coach. You don't go 4-4 (1-1) against a great Mavs team without being an excellent leader.

The Heat will never be the Spurs.
The Bulls will never be the Lakers.
&
The Magic will never be the Mavs (with or without Dwight Howard who's leaving in 2012 for the Lakers).

BOS is aging & this IS their last championship run.

Bulls
Heat
Knicks

Thats the class of the East come 2012. That is NO WHERE near as tough as the West during Mike D's days with PHX. Not even CLOSE.

Just like MJ & CHI got in Riley's way. The same happened to MDA & PHX with SA. MDA could have won 3 rings if not for the Spurs.

Clyde & The Pearl · Mar 13, 2011

iSaYughh said:
Our "size" has truly been a perpetual all-time bust (Darko) on a 1yr deal, and the multi-year project of Randolph. Who may really be closer to a sf than a NBA C at this point. And regardless was pure trade bait who had an important value to be preserved (perhaps even at the expense of being developed). But either way,

We truly have had no legit, quality size where you can say, MDA hates big players. If he really did, I doubt we bring back Isiah Thomas disgrace Jeffries...and play him so much

HUH? Well that depends on what you consider quality. I cant believe you're going to try to run with this. Were any of the bigs Dwight Howard? Duncan? Bynum? No. You do realize AR put up usable numbers in GS when he was healthy. You do realize Moz after forcing his way into the lineup help us more than hurt us. What more can you ask? I cant say the same about JJ after watching him blow layup after layup.

mafra · Mar 13, 2011

WrongIslander said:
Let's say you're right, all I'm asking you to do is look at it fairly.

Say MDA fails at NY, there are more reasons to fail than just perceived poor defence and personally I think that my biggest worry my he and his approach may fail is everyone being on the same page.

Division doesn't work regardless of the sport. If MDA, Dolan and Walsh arn't on the same page then it's curtains regardless. Whatever the sport you must not only present but also have a united front.

Forget the names, if the coach is brought in to play a style then the man charged with getting him those players should be asking him what players fit his style not just buying them or trading for them. If the money man just wants to sell seats and shirts and isn't interested in chemistry? Well welcome to failure 101.

I'm not in anyway saying you may not be proved right about MDA being the wrong man but what I am saying is that there will be more than one reason that being the case and that more than one person will be to blame. I'm also saying he deserves a fair chance to fail.

It's easy to point out how poor the Knicks have been for 3 years, but it's also easy to miss out that MDA has worked under the kind of pressure and circumstances outside of his control in regards to his players that most coaches simply would never agree to.

To this day, I still saw DW's biggest failure was not getting MD his PG the moment he arrived. He absolutely had to do it. Trade the farm and move up to get Westbrook. They wanted him to fall. After missing that, do whatever it took to get Curry. MD's system needs the QB to dominate the ball and make the correct decisions with the ball. That's where his constant motion comes from in his systen, at least so it was in PHO w/ Nash.

Signing Duhon and then not getting a PG was crazy. At least draft a Jennings or Lawson. They needed time to learn the system and be ready for when 2010 arrived.

To his credit, D'antoni brought Shawne Williams back from the dead (credit Walsh for this as well). BUT, like you said... If we don't have his players than why bother employing his system?

For example, it appears now that UTAH was going to deal Deron Williams to whatever team (NJ or NY) missed out on Carmelo. Why didn't we offer that package to UTAH for Deron? He is the better fit with MD right?

WrongIslander · Mar 13, 2011

mafra said:
I think I'll differ to Jared Diamond... He knows a little bit more about this than you. He says English started in NW Europe and diffused around the globe. Read GUNS, GERMS & STEEL. But whatever...

I don't like MD's hubris. I actually think he's just been collecting his $ and going through the motions at times. These NBA players will take a mile if you give them a yard. His lax approach wont cut it. YES. Ultimately it's on the players to win/lose, execute and give the effort. YES, if Stern doesn't suspend half of PHO, they probably beat CLE and win NBA title.

I also think MD deserves blame when we lose at home to CLE and IND. It's just the way it goes in sports. Coaches get fired all the time.

I guess it all goes back to being selfish and drafting his godson over Gordon. And, in a way, we 've both been provben wrong with that decision.

There are so many if buts and maybes that we'd be here all night.

You're more than entitled to your opinion I just think you over simply at times, although I'm sure I'm guilty of the same.

The Galo question gives me the answer to most of my questions, if only I knew the answer. What do I mean by that? Well was MDA holding up the trade to keep Galo, if he could would he go back and pick Gordon in hindsight? If he was the one holding up the Galo trade then why does his opinion count and why is he still the coach if he was only brought in to win one way with or without LeBron?

I'd love a definitive answer to the question of if he's good enough or not but unless he goes at the end of next year or he suceeds then again it's just one of many great imponderables.

nuckles2k2 · Mar 13, 2011

STAT1 said:
I think if we got a player like Kendrick Perkins who would be able to watch Amare & Melo's backs & regulate on the floor, MDA would have to play him. No head coach likes to see his star players get beat on in games. The problem is that player needs to be good in order to command the type of respect in the huddle that you need to inspire others to up the level of their play. There's not that many of those types of players available out there for us to get, or even be able to get because of the CBA conditions the way they are.

Call me crazy for suggesting it but Ron Artest would be a perfect fit on this Knicks team since MDA likes to go small anyway he's the type of player that would command respect in the huddle from guys because everyone knows he takes no crap from anyone (unless it's an angry Ben Wallace that is) ;P hmmm, Ben Wallace wouldn't be bad either for that matter...

Yea but when MDA was in Phoenix and Kerr traded for Shaq, MDA didn't want to play him. One thing led to another and MDA is the coach of the Knicks a calendar year later.

Maybe he's changed since then, but his actions don't seem to suggest that he did. He seems to have a love affair with undersized centers or tall wing players who aren't really centers.

People can say "oh, well....yea his philosophy hasn't come to fruition yet....but that doesn't mean it won't..." by that logic I can say "Olivia Munn hasn't shown up to give me my no hands BJ yet....doesn't mean that she won't ever tho." So something isn't...until it is? Is that the argument?

What happens when our shots aren't falling, and the opposing team is having their way in the paint? You can survive a game with good O and poor D, or poor O and great D...but when both aren't working and the coach sees this...it's time to earn that paycheck and start coaching 'em up (regardless of whether we win or lose, we should see tangible results from the coaching.) MDA hasn't done this once as the coach of the NYK.

iSaYughh · Mar 13, 2011

mafra said:
That may be true. I just know that I've read MD prefers a CENTER who can shoot the jumper, b/c he wants to lure the defensive big away from the middle... opening up some space to work with. Hence, the rumors that MD-Kerr were at odds over the SHAQ deal.

As for Darko, he is not gasol... but did we really give him an honest look? We were going nowhere last year, yet he could play harringotn but not Darko? The same with AR this year. I KNOW WALSH was ticked MD never gave him a chance, so much so it might be the reason MD gets fired after the season.

I think if we can get Marc Gasol, or if MD had the other Gasol... He would play them. As you said, quality size is better than just size. This is why they drafted his godson over Gordon. 6"10' is better than 6"4'.

I know I'm hard on MD. I never wanetd him here. Sure, he's yet to really disappoint... but so far... He's also failed to even give us slightly more than we provided him with. Meanining what exactly right? Nada mucho.

I just would like to see him get more with less just one season. I guess that starts with a playoff win. AND, even if he losses (as long as we aint swept)... He might even be given 1 more shot. But, if we go another 40-win seasons and first round exit after next season... Then you have to admit MD failed.

Hey man, no hard on for MDA here. If we stagnate as a team, and all these "improvements" and "positives" are looking to be fool's gold..or just not truly tied to D'ant....Can him. In the situation you described above -- I agree. Fail.

Re: 5's who can shoot. I mean, that'd be a good thing, no? But I think ppl give MDA too much credit, and clout here. It's Walsh's call -- if we got Perkins here right now, he's playing.

Jeffries has as poor a shot as you can find on either side of the Mississippi (personally I think it's a disgrace he's playing for us, considering the trauma his prior contract caused our franchise...despite not being MDA or Walsh's fault).

D'antoni might want some theoretical hot shit 5 who can stroke it...but Donnie's job is to bring in the best players, period, and D'ant wont always get these types of guys. Even if there's nothing wrong w fantasying about a 7ft behemoth with range.

Channing Frye and Perkins would actually have been a really sick duo of 5s for us.

WrongIslander · Mar 13, 2011

mafra said:
To this day, I still saw DW's biggest failure was not getting MD his PG the moment he arrived. He absolutely had to do it. Trade the farm and move up to get Westbrook. They wanted him to fall. After missing that, do whatever it took to get Curry. MD's system needs the QB to dominate the ball and make the correct decisions with the ball. That's where his constant motion comes from in his systen, at least so it was in PHO w/ Nash.

Signing Duhon and then not getting a PG was crazy. At least draft a Jennings or Lawson. They needed time to learn the system and be ready for when 2010 arrived.

To his credit, D'antoni brought Shawne Williams back from the dead (credit Walsh for this as well). BUT, like you said... If we don't have his players than why bother employing his system?

For example, it appears now that UTAH was going to deal Deron Williams to whatever team (NJ or NY) missed out on Carmelo. Why didn't we offer that package to UTAH for Deron? He is the better fit with MD right?

Totally agree and said as much about Curry, he was my boy in the draft and now I've got another one ....

Gonna throw one out there, feel free to knock it back but ...

Kendall Marshall, I see the way this kid runs the floor and the leadership qualities he has and I see someone perfect to bring in to this team. I don't know if he's getting much love from inside the game as I've only seen the games on tv over here but he just looks like he has it to me. I may be wrong.

Everything NY does seems too disjointed for me. Walsh has done well to get the players but as I say do they fit the plan? I don't think they do and I think the plan is changing now, more reason to either get rid of MDA for your point of view but more reason to defend him from mine.

There's no doubt that Williams is the better fit but if you believe the stories we had no idea he was available. You ask me whether I want Williams or Melo then I take Melo cos he's ice cold when it matters most but you ask me who I want to work with MDA and build a team around then it's D-Will no contest.

I can't help but think that we lucked out getting Billups and that NY did see him as just a throw in.

iSaYughh · Mar 13, 2011

mafra said:
To this day, I still saw DW's biggest failure was not getting MD his PG the moment he arrived. He absolutely had to do it. Trade the farm and move up to get Westbrook. They wanted him to fall. After missing that, do whatever it took to get Curry. MD's system needs the QB to dominate the ball and make the correct decisions with the ball. That's where his constant motion comes from in his systen, at least so it was in PHO w/ Nash.

Signing Duhon and then not getting a PG was crazy. At least draft a Jennings or Lawson. They needed time to learn the system and be ready for when 2010 arrived.

To his credit, D'antoni brought Shawne Williams back from the dead (credit Walsh for this as well). BUT, like you said... If we don't have his players than why bother employing his system?

For example, it appears now that UTAH was going to deal Deron Williams to whatever team (NJ or NY) missed out on Carmelo. Why didn't we offer that package to UTAH for Deron? He is the better fit with MD right?

Bingo.

Curry honestly could have, and should be here. Chandler and our 8th and Washington's pick is ours. Going further back you can make a case for Westbrook, but we can give a mulligan bc he isn't such a perfect fit (in theory) and the draft was deep enough where plenty of attractive prospects loomed...Gordon, Lopez, Gallo too.

Curry still haunts me. Shit, I could have lived with taking a big gamble on Rubio and living with it.

The DWill stuff can get dicey with his contract, or lack thereof, but knowing that THAT fallback also existed...I'm further stunned we caved so hard and weak suddenly when crunch time in negotiations approached.

iSaYughh · Mar 13, 2011

WrongIslander said:
Totally agree and said as much about Curry, he was my boy in the draft and now I've got another one ....

Gonna throw one out there, feel free to knock it back but ...

Kendall Marshall, I see the way this kid runs the floor and the leadership qualities he has and I see someone perfect to bring in to this team. I don't know if he's getting much love from inside the game as I've only seen the games on tv over here but he just looks like he has it to me. I may be wrong.

Everything NY does seems too disjointed for me. Walsh has done well to get the players but as I say do they fit the plan? I don't think they do and I think the plan is changing now, more reason to either get rid of MDA for your point of view but more reason to defend him from mine.

There's no doubt that Williams is the better fit but if you believe the stories we had no idea he was available. You ask me whether I want Williams or Melo then I take Melo cos he's ice cold when it matters most but you ask me who I want to work with MDA and build a team around then it's D-Will no contest.

I can't help but think that we lucked out getting Billups and that NY did see him as just a throw in.

Precisely the same thing can be said for the Rangers. Regardless of whether we are the laughing stock, or a middling playoff team, or hopefully contender.

Wonder who owns and runs that venerable NY institution of sports....:barf:

WrongIslander · Mar 13, 2011

KnicksFanFromQueens1985 said:
The Spurs are a DYNASTY. PHX lost 3 playoff series against SA with a record of 3-12.

But you don't lead your team to a record of 22-13 inside an EXTREMELY tough Western Conf against the Lakers, Mavs, Grizz & Clippers without being a good coach.

14 of those 22 wins were against the Lakers & Mavs.

You don't beat the Lakers 4-1 without defense. You don't beat the LAKERS during a deciding game 7 unless your an outstanding coach. You don't go 4-4 (1-1) against a great Mavs team without being an excellent leader.

The Heat will never be the Spurs.
The Bulls will never be the Lakers.
&
The Magic will never be the Mavs (with or without Dwight Howard who's leaving in 2012 for the Lakers).

BOS is aging & this IS their last championship run.

Bulls
Heat
Knicks

Thats the class of the East come 2012. That is NO WHERE near as tough as the West during Mike D's days with PHX. Not even CLOSE.

Just like MJ & CHI got in Riley's way. The same happened to MDA & PHX with SA. MDA could have won 3 rings if not for the Spurs.

My worry is that team was clearly built and drafted FOR MDA. This team clearly isn't. MDA may well end up not getting to the promised land but that and him being "the worst coach ever" and "failing" are a million miles away for me.

Do I think we can win it under him? Sure, he's a quality coach and he's proven that.

Do I think we will? As a betting man, I'd have to say no because it just don't feel right as an organisation. Miami have the same problem, there's just too much indivision be it fans, players, coach, it's just not settled.

Chicago are the very definition of playoff ready, they're all pulling in the same direction and they're all on the same page from playing staff to front office, to coaching staff.

WrongIslander · Mar 13, 2011

iSaYughh said:
Precisely the same thing can be said for the Rangers. Regardless of whether we are the laughing stock, or a middling playoff team, or hopefully contender.

Wonder who owns and runs that venerable NY institution of sports....:barf:

I pull for the Rangers, it's the only sport in the world where I support two teams from the same area and a lot of it is due to the MSG link but obviously my team are the Islanders.

We're in much worse shape than you and we may not even exist as the Islanders for much longer but you can't say a bad word about the way we try and do things. All the odds are against us unlike the Rangers and we just keep going trying to do it the right way.

Matt Moulson pretty much sums our organisation up.

iSaYughh · Mar 13, 2011

Clyde & The Pearl said:
HUH? Well that depends on what you consider quality. I cant believe you're going to try to run with this. Were any of the bigs Dwight Howard? Duncan? Bynum? No. You do realize AR put up usable numbers in GS when he was healthy. You do realize Moz after forcing his way into the lineup help us more than hurt us. What more can you ask? I cant say the same about JJ after watching him blow layup after layup.

Forget those dudes...how about ANY nba center who has put up even one year of legit numbers, or demonstrated some degree of consistency.

But ya, Moz -- he did play, and played pretty good, and was trending up till he got traded. Still a 24yr old Russian rook man.

Even if we say AR is a NBA center, and has talent (which he does), I cant believe *he* is the guy you are going to run with in the argument that D'antoni has had all this size and it's unreal he hasn't been playing all these "quality bigs" all the time.

Jeffries -- agreed. But doesn't that show that he isn't opposed to playing bigs? And doesn't dislike size? AR is form fit for MDA to be a great center, his athletics and game are righteous....Jeffries couldn't shoot a load onto his hand without bricking!

mafra · Mar 13, 2011

I've never felt as bad as I did on draft night when GSW selected Curry (he made it so close) and then we draft Hill! Talk about a disastrous turn of events.

I thought Felton had a chance... #s close to where Nash was at same point in their careers. But NASH is one of a kind, right?

As for this draft... MAN, if we could get Kyrie Irving (he is Rod Strickland all over again). Wont happen though. I will live with Walker QUICK) or Federette (SHOOTER) though.

One of those and DeAndre Jordan or Marc Gasol?

So, that's what we have... Let Billups walk and get a BIG or keep Billups and hope Jerome Jordan worked hard this winter.

mafra · Mar 13, 2011

WrongIslander said:
My worry is that team was clearly built and drafted FOR MDA. This team clearly isn't. MDA may well end up not getting to the promised land but that and him being "the worst coach ever" and "failing" are a million miles away for me.

Do I think we can win it under him? Sure, he's a quality coach and he's proven that.

Do I think we will? As a betting man, I'd have to say no because it just don't feel right as an organisation. Miami have the same problem, there's just too much indivision be it fans, players, coach, it's just not settled.

Chicago are the very definition of playoff ready, they're all pulling in the same direction and they're all on the same page from playing staff to front office, to coaching staff.

MD should have chosen CHI. Man, Rose is perfect for his style.

Clyde & The Pearl · Mar 13, 2011

STAT1 said:
I think if we got a player like Kendrick Perkins who would be able to watch Amare & Melo's backs & regulate on the floor, MDA would have to play him. No head coach likes to see his star players get beat on in games. The problem is that player needs to be good in order to command the type of respect in the huddle that you need to inspire others to up the level of their play. There's not that many of those types of players available out there for us to get, or even be able to get because of the CBA conditions the way they are.

Call me crazy for suggesting it but Ron Artest would be a perfect fit on this Knicks team since MDA likes to go small anyway he's the type of player that would command respect in the huddle from guys because everyone knows he takes no crap from anyone (unless it's an angry Ben Wallace that is) ;P hmmm, Ben Wallace wouldn't be bad either for that matter...

I cant see it. I mean I know we could use a player like Perkins you know it, but MDA has this system and history has proven that if you dont fit it you dont play. Like another poster said he had a problem with Shaq. This cat doesnt want to tweek his system for the greatest big man of this era. Shaq who was still getting you 18 & 8. I doubt Perkins or anyone like him changes his stance...

mafra · Mar 13, 2011

Clyde & The Pearl said:
I cant see it. I mean I know we could use a player like Perkins you know it, but MDA has this system and history has proven that if you dont fit it you dont play. Like another poster said he had a problem with Shaq. This cat doesnt want to tweek his system for the greatest big man of this era. Shaq who was still getting you 18 & 8. I doubt Perkins or anyone like him changes his stance...

I think Perkins signed an extension in OKC.

Clyde & The Pearl · Mar 13, 2011

mafra said:
I think Perkins signed an extension in OKC.

Yea I know. We were talking about players like Perkins more or less....

Knicks V Pacers - Mar 13 + 15: Home And Away Double Thread Special

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