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Thread: Basketball Champions Offensive and Defensive ratings (last 15 years)

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    Default Basketball Champions Offensive and Defensive ratings (last 15 years)

    I think some people on here think I and others are hating on D'Antoni because we just like to.

    I am posting this thread not to debate about it more, but to show that our concerns on his defensive ratings and his lack of attention to it are almost certainly going to cost us a championship.

    Please find below the offensive and defensive ratings for the championship teams for the past 15 years. You will find only one occasion where the defensive rating was outside the top ten during the regular seasons (That team's defensive rating (Lakers) was top ten during the playoffs).

    Let us be clear about this.

    Defensively:
    • Only 1 out of the last 15 teams who won a championship had a defensive rating outside the top 10 (6%)
    • 14 out of the 15 teams were rated a top 10 defensive team (93%)
    • 11 out of the 15 teams were top 5 in defensive ratings (73%)
    • 13 out of the 15 teams were top 7 in defensive ratings (87%)
    • 5 out of the 15 teams were number 1 in the league in defensive rating (33%)
    Offensively:
    • Just 2 out of the 15 teams were best in the league offensively (13%)
    • 3 out of 15 teams won a championship with offense ratings outside the top ten (20%). Meaning it is 3x's more likely you will win a ring with offense outside the top ten than defense outside the top ten. AKA, Defense is more important than offense.
    • 9 out of the 15 teams were outside the top 5 offensively (60%)
    Combined
    • 11 out of the 15 teams were BOTH top ten in offense and defense.
    • 3 of the 4 who were not top ten in both offense and defense, were a top ten defensive team.
    Moral of the story is that only one team in the last 15 years was not in top 10 in defense. ONE. Of course that was the 2001 Lakers (never show up during the regular season). I checked their defensive ratings in the regular season compared to the playoffs. They raised their defensive rating to top of the league during the playoffs (only lost one game during the entire playoffs). So, even then, they were still one of the elite defensive teams in the playoffs. This makes EVERY team that won a championship for the past 15 years a top 10 defensive team.

    In the end, you want a balanced offense and defense, but the stats below ultimately prove that defense is more important. If you have offense outside the top 10 in the regular season, you stand a 20% chance of winning a championship. Still really bad odds, but, much better when compared to teams who fell outside of the top 10 defensive teams in the regular season (6%).

    You need a balance. You need offense and defense; but, if you are going to sacrifice one, you sacrifice offense and not defense. I'm not willing to put my odds at winning a championship at 6% (and that is provided MDA can make the Knicks a top defensive team during the playoffs).... Just not going to do it.

    Hopefully these stats show that I and others are not hating on MDA for no reason. We see a pattern -- bad defense doesn't win championships. This is why we call for a new coach or a coach who will stress D.

    Sure, we can be that 2001 Lakers anomaly with MDA as our coach (which really wasn't an anomaly when you see what the Lakers did defensively in the playoffs), but my questions are:
    • Wouldn't you rather be a part of the 93% group who won with defense? (100 percent when you look at the Lakers in the playoffs)
    • Doesn't that gives us a much better chance, no?
    Ultimately everyone on this board wants what's best for the Knicks. These stats show that being a top 10 defensive team is what is best for the Knicks. Do you really want to take a chance on a coach that has NEVER had a top 10 defensive team?

    Stats:

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    2010:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.8 (11th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 103.7 (4th of 30)

    2009:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 112.8 (3rd of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.7 (6th of 30)

    2008:
    Celtics: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 110.2 (10th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.9 (1st of 30)

    2007:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 109.2 (5th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.9 (2nd of 30)

    2006:
    Heat: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.7 (7th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.5 (9th of 30)

    2005:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.5 (8th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.8 (1st of 30)

    2004:
    Pistons: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 102.0 (18th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 95.4 (2nd of 29)

    2003:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 105.6 (7th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.7 (3rd of 29)

    2002:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 109.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 101.7 (7th of 29)

    2001:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.8 (21st of 29)

    2000:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.3 (5th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.2 (1st of 29)

    1999:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.0 (11th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 95.0 (1st of 29)

    1998:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.7 (9th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.8 (3rd of 29)

    1997:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 114.4 (1st of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 102.4 (4th of 29)

    1996:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 115.2 (1st of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 101.8 (1st of 29)
    Last edited by MusketeerX; Mar 12, 2011 at 19:32.

  2. #2
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    Once again... None of those Championship teams did it with 5 starters who weren't on the roster the previous year. Fact.

    It's kind of hard to have a top 10 defense with 4 of 5 starters who weren't here last year in Felton, Fields (rookie), Amare & Mozgov before the trade. After the trade? We have 5 starters (starting) who weren't with MDA or the Knicks last year. Fact.

    It's kind of hard to have a top 10 defense when you lack a center. Sorry, but Mozgov was only averaging 3 & 4 per game & Jeffries & Turiaf will not get it done in terms of building a top 10 D.

    The Knicks always had top 10 D's during the 90's but could never win a championship. We never had the offensive talent to get past Jordan & the Bulls.

    Give MDA a true defensive center who can also run the floor such as Dalembert, De'Andre Jordan or Marc Gasol during the offseason & the Knicks will become a top 10 defense next year. Other than Amare... We have no shot blockers.

    Give MDA a chance lmao

  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by KnicksFanFromQueens1985
    Once again... None of those Championship teams did it with 5 starters who weren't on the roster the previous year. Fact.

    It's kind of hard to have a top 10 defense with 4 of 5 starters who weren't here last year in Felton, Fields (rookie), Amare & Mozgov before the trade. After the trade? We have 5 starters (starting) who weren't with MDA or the Knicks last year. Fact.

    It's kind of hard to have a top 10 defense when you lack a center. Sorry, but Mozgov was only averaging 3 & 4 per game & Jeffries & Turiaf will not get it done in terms of building a top 10 D.

    The Knicks always had top 10 D's during the 90's but could never win a championship. We never had the offensive talent to get past Jordan & the Bulls.

    Give MDA a true defensive center who can also run the floor such as Dalembert, De'Andre Jordan or Marc Gasol during the offseason & the Knicks will become a top 10 defense next year. Other than Amare... We have no shot blockers.

    Give MDA a chance lmao
    OMG. Not talking about this year. I'm talking about all years. I'm talking about MDA during the Phoenix years. Without defense, championships are going to always be just out of reach.

    You didn't read the entire post did you. Most desirable is both offense and defense in the top 10. 4 teams didn't have both in top 10.

    3 of those 4 teams were top in defense.

    The remaining team became an elite defensive team in the playoffs.

    You are going to apologize when MDA never wins us one, right?

  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    OMG. Not talking about this year. I'm talking about all years. I'm talking about MDA during the Phoenix years. Without defense, championships are going to always be just out of reach.

    You didn't read the entire post did you. Most desirable is both offense and defense in the top 10. 4 teams didn't have both in top 10.

    3 of those 4 teams were top in defense.

    The remaining team became an elite defensive team in the playoffs.

    You are going to apologize when MDA never wins us one, right?
    Seriously things are changing in the team I don't know if you watch games but there is plenty of defense going on, we're not great at it yet, the team has not enough experience to get everything sorted on either end. Thing is one on one with Stat and Melo is easy offensively, defense teamwork is always required.

    We'll get better no doubt. We do need a big guy though we are lacking like 5 RPG as a team so filling that void is important. But can't blame coach that we don't have a big guy right now.

    I don't think anyone in their right mind can expect a deep playoff run this year. Getting past the first round would be an achievement.

    When we have a complete team, then let's see where we are on the table of top defensive teams.

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    Originally Posted by smokes
    Seriously things are changing in the team I don't know if you watch games but there is plenty of defense going on, we're not great at it yet, the team has not enough experience to get everything sorted on either end. Thing is one on one with Stat and Melo is easy offensively, defense teamwork is always required.

    We'll get better no doubt. We do need a big guy though we are lacking like 5 RPG as a team so filling that void is important. But can't blame coach that we don't have a big guy right now.

    I don't think anyone in their right mind can expect a deep playoff run this year. Getting past the first round would be an achievement.

    When we have a complete team, then let's see where we are on the table of top defensive teams.
    Smokes, i thought things were starting to change too, but our last few games saw guys put up ridiculous numbers. They are just falling back into old habits. They need a coach that can really discipline their minds around playing D every possession down the floor. They need a coach that can have pace their offense so they are not exhausted by the end of games...

    D'Antoni is not that guy.

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    Originally Posted by KnicksFanFromQueens1985
    Once again... None of those Championship teams did it with 5 starters who weren't on the roster the previous year. Fact.

    It's kind of hard to have a top 10 defense with 4 of 5 starters who weren't here last year in Felton, Fields (rookie), Amare & Mozgov before the trade. After the trade? We have 5 starters (starting) who weren't with MDA or the Knicks last year. Fact.

    It's kind of hard to have a top 10 defense when you lack a center. Sorry, but Mozgov was only averaging 3 & 4 per game & Jeffries & Turiaf will not get it done in terms of building a top 10 D.

    The Knicks always had top 10 D's during the 90's but could never win a championship. We never had the offensive talent to get past Jordan & the Bulls.

    Give MDA a true defensive center who can also run the floor such as Dalembert, De'Andre Jordan or Marc Gasol during the offseason & the Knicks will become a top 10 defense next year. Other than Amare... We have no shot blockers.

    Give MDA a chance lmao
    You might have something if this was MDA's first dance. He tried it his way in Phoenix and failed. I dont understand why you dont understand this...(facepalm)

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    How about you give MDA a full offseason of training camp, practices & preseason games to work with the team... B4 expecting a top 10 D over night. Has MDA even had an offseason to work with his 3 leaders in Billups, Amare & Melo? The answer is no.

    Next year we'll have Billups, Fields, Melo & Amare ALL returning as starters. 4 of 5 starters returning.

    Big difference from having 0 starters who were with us the previous year.

    Chances are we'll also upgrade @ the Center position & add a big body who can bang, block shots, fill the lanes & rebound to take some pressure off of Amare himself.

    You think this is the finished product? Sad.

    Walsh, Dolan & MDA all had a plan starting 3 years ago. Those plans were to turn the roster over, get the franchise out of cap hell, add two stars & compete for the playoffs; NY has done JUST that.

    I'm sorry if that hasn't been ''good enough" for some of you MDA harpers after NY has been dead for 10+ years.

    The next steps are to improve the paint by adding a C who can run.

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    Originally Posted by KnicksFanFromQueens1985
    How about you give MDA a full offseason of training camp, practices & preseason games to work with the team... B4 expecting a top 10 D over night. Has MDA even had an offseason to work with his 3 leaders in Billups, Amare & Melo? The answer is no.

    Next year we'll have Billups, Fields, Melo & Amare ALL returning as starters. 4 of 5 starters returning.

    Big difference from having 0 starters who were with us the previous year.

    Chances are we'll also upgrade @ the Center position & add a big body who can bang, block shots, fill the lanes & rebound to take some pressure off of Amare himself.

    You think this is the finished product? Sad.

    Walsh, Dolan & MDA all had a plan starting 3 years ago. Those plans were to turn the roster over, get the franchise out of cap hell, add two stars & compete for the playoffs; NY has done JUST that.

    I'm sorry if that hasn't been ''good enough" for some of you MDA harpers after NY has been dead for 10+ years.

    The next steps are to improve the paint by adding a C who can run.
    I'm sorry, but I want what's best for my team. Maybe you don't.

    Let me ask you again:

    You are going to apologize when MDA fails to get us there, right?

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    Nope, because I believe MDA will bring us a championship.

    I seen MDA dominate the West with PHX for 4 years with a winning % of .650, 4 consecutive trips to the playoffs & two Western Conf apperances. The Suns also played GREAT pushing the Spurs to a game 7. Cant blame MDA for Amare getting suspended thnx to Stern screwing PHX allowing SA to advance.

    I know enough about MDA to not run him out of town before he's even had a CHANCE to win with the Knicks.

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    Originally Posted by KnicksFanFromQueens1985
    Nope, because I believe MDA will bring us a championship.

    I seen MDA dominate the West with PHX for 4 years with a winning % of .650, 4 consecutive trips to the playoffs & two Western Conf apperances. The Suns also played GREAT pushing the Spurs to a game 7. Cant blame MDA for Amare getting suspended thnx to Stern screwing PHX allowing SA to advance.

    I know enough about MDA to not run him out of town before he's even had a CHANCE to win with the Knicks.
    Didn't think so. Don't believe in your boy that much.

    Answer me this, has MDA ever had a top 10 defensive team?

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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    I think some people on here think I and others are hating on D'Antoni because we just like to.

    I am posting this thread not to debate about it more, but to show that our concerns on his defensive ratings and his lack of attention to it are almost certainly going to cost us a championship.

    Please find below the offensive and defensive ratings for the championship teams for the past 15 years. You will find only one occasion where the defensive rating was outside the top ten during the regular seasons (That team's defensive rating (Lakers) was top ten during the playoffs).

    Let us be clear about this.

    Defensively:
    • Only 1 out of the last 15 teams who won a championship had a defensive rating outside the top 10 (6%)
    • 14 out of the 15 teams were rated a top 10 defensive team (93%)
    • 11 out of the 15 teams were top 5 in defensive ratings (73%)
    • 13 out of the 15 teams were top 7 in defensive ratings (87%)
    • 5 out of the 15 teams were number 1 in the league in defensive rating (33%)
    Offensively:
    • Just 2 out of the 15 teams were best in the league offensively (13%)
    • 3 out of 15 teams won a championship with offense ratings outside the top ten (20%). Meaning it is 3x's more likely you will win a ring with offense outside the top ten than defense outside the top ten. AKA, Defense is more important than offense.
    • 9 out of the 15 teams were outside the top 5 offensively (60%)
    Combined
    • 11 out of the 15 teams were BOTH top ten in offense and defense.
    • 3 of the 4 who were not top ten in both offense and defense, were a top ten defensive team.
    Moral of the story is that only one team in the last 15 years was below top 10 in defense. ONE. Of course that was the 2001 Lakers (never show up during the regular season). I checked their defensive ratings in the regular season compared to the playoffs. They raised their defensive rating to top of the league during the playoffs (only lost one game during the entire playoffs). So, even then, they were still one of the elite defensive teams in the playoffs. This makes EVERY team that won a championship for the past 15 years a top 10 defensive team.

    In the end, you want a balanced offense and defense, but the stats below ultimately prove that defense is more important. If you have offense outside the top 10 in the regular season, you stand a 20% chance of winning a championship. Still really bad odds, but, much better when compared to teams who fell outside of the top 10 defensive teams in the regular season (6%).

    You need a balance. You need offense and defense; but, if you are going to sacrifice one, you sacrifice offense and not defense. I'm not willing to put my odds at winning a championship at 6% (and that is provided MDA can make the Knicks a top defensive team during the playoffs).... Just not going to do it.

    Hopefully these stats show that I and others are not hating on MDA for no reason. We see a pattern -- bad defense doesn't win championships. This is why we call for a new coach or a coach who will stress D.

    Sure, we can be that 2001 Lakers anomaly with MDA as our coach (which really wasn't an anomaly when you see what the Lakers did defensively in the playoffs), but my questions are:
    • Wouldn't you rather be a part of the 93% group who won with defense? (100 percent when you look at the Lakers in the playoffs)
    • Doesn't that gives us a much better chance, no?
    Ultimately everyone on this board wants what's best for the Knicks. These stats show that being a top 10 defensive team is what is best for the Knicks. Do you really want to take a chance on a coach that has NEVER had a top 10 defensive team?

    Stats:

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line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> Los Angeles Lakers:

    2010:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.8 (11th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 103.7 (4th of 30)

    2009:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 112.8 (3rd of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.7 (6th of 30)

    2008:
    Celtics: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 110.2 (10th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.9 (1st of 30)

    2007:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 109.2 (5th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.9 (2nd of 30)

    2006:
    Heat: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.7 (7th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.5 (9th of 30)

    2005:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.5 (8th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.8 (1st of 30)

    2004:
    Pistons: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 102.0 (18th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 95.4 (2nd of 29)

    2003:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 105.6 (7th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.7 (3rd of 29)

    2002:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 109.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 101.7 (7th of 29)

    2001:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.8 (21st of 29)

    2000:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.3 (5th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.2 (1st of 29)

    1999:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.0 (11th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 95.0 (1st of 29)

    1998:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.7 (9th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.8 (3rd of 29)

    1997:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 114.4 (1st of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 102.4 (4th of 29)

    1996:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 115.2 (1st of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 101.8 (1st of 29)
    Great Sttas Musk. I think I posted something similar but just gave the link. Add to your stats that if you go back 22 more years to the 1974 champion only one other team won a chip with a defense ranked outside the top 10. I forget the year but it was Houston, and they were ranked 11TH.

    Like you said we arent hating just to be hating. History tells us that doing it MDA's way (with offense) is very unlikely to happen....

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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Great Sttas Musk. I think I posted something similar but just gave the link. Add to your stats that if you go back 22 more years to the 1974 champion only one other team won a chip with a defense ranked outside the top 10. I forget the year but it was Houston, and they were ranked 11TH.

    Like you said we arent hating just to be hating. History tells us that doing it MDA's way (with offense) is very unlikely to happen....
    Wow, really? I thought about going back further, but just didn't want to take the time to do it. I don't understand how people can support a coach that has shown an obvious aversion to two of the most important stats in the nba: boarding and defense.
    Last edited by MusketeerX; Mar 12, 2011 at 16:41.

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    Nope, but that still doesn't change the fact that MDA led the Suns to 4 consecutive playoff trips, had PHX playing 120+ games above .500 during the 4 years as coach. An average of 30+ games above .500 per season in an EXTREMELY tough Westen Conf.

    You cant compate CHI or MIA to LA & SA. How many rings do CHI & MIA combine for under their new coaches? Zero. How many rings do LA & SA combine for? Plenty.

    Funny how you say "MDA will NEVER lead NY to the Finals" when A) MDA has yet to have a CHANCE to win with NY & B) led PHX to the Finals 2 out of 4 years in an EXTREMELY tough Western Conf & was ONLY one W away from a Finals apperance after pushing the SPURS to a game 7.

    NY ALWAYS had top 10 D's under both Riley & Van Gundy. How many rings did those top 10 D's lead to? Exactly; 0.

    It's only a matter of time before NY starts to DOMINATE the East under MDA. The best has yet to come, that still doesn't change the fact that we're playing .600 since the trade without his starting PG or an offseason to GEL. Sad

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    MDA has never made it to the finals... Conference finals... but he never got that brass ring. "Almost" only counts in horeshoes and grenades. Miami and Chi town have at least won chips. Tommy was on the team that took the celts to the finals and won.

    MDA doesn't even have a conference title under his belt.

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    I also like how you chide everyone for "not addressing your questions" yet you haven't addressed the topic of this thread.

    Only one team (two if go back to 1974) have won a championship with a defensive rating outside of the top ten during the regular season.

    Answer these questions for me...

    Has D'Antoni ever had a team that was top ten in defense?

    Given the stats above where over 93% of the teams who won championships were great defensive teams (measured by top 10 team in the league in that statistical category), don't you think we stand a better chance of winning a championship with a coach that stresses defense?

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