Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 116

Thread: Basketball Champions Offensive and Defensive ratings (last 15 years)

  1. #61
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    FLorida. Thank god for the NBA league pass & MSG network.
    Posts
    1,112
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Look Musketeer; your a hell of a basketball poster, your a true NYK fan. I enjoy your insight. Can also tell you love your NYK team like a true New Yorker. Trust me, I respect you for that .

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagee. We're two different fans. One is no better than the other. We're all NY fans who want the best for this proud franchise. I'm willing to give this man a chance to W in NY. 1st & foremost; I feel he deserves the chance to compete during this years playoff run along with an offseason to gel with our 3 stars. After 10 years of hard times...I actually like the sounds of two Western Conf Finals in 4 years, 4 consecutive trips to the playoffs with 54+ wins. Two with 60+ wins. Game 7 against a Dynasty Spurs team, 4 top 5 offensive attacks, winning % of .650 after 4 years, winning record during the playoffs, 5 out of 8 playoff series won, coach of the year honors, coached with team USA, won championships all over Italian & Europe leagues, Star players are willing to play for him, etc.

  2. #62
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    27
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I'd like to see some of the MDA fans rationalize how they're so sure MDA will deliver us a championship when they agree that defense wins championships and agree that MDA isn't a defensive coach.

  3. #63
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    FLorida. Thank god for the NBA league pass & MSG network.
    Posts
    1,112
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I'm just thankful for this team. I believe & feel it could be much worse for us.

    If Phil doesn't retire; whats the chances of Jackson leaving a proven team & franchise, For NY; when LA could land Howard until Kobe retires & have one of the NBA's best front lines of all time?

    Whats the chances of Riley leaving for NY during the next 3 years; without Riley 1st coaching a more experienced team; with an improved PG, C &-Or Bench?

    Whats the chances the CHI coach leaving the Bulls? MVP Rose, All-Stars in Noah & Boozer with a team thats 2 & 3 deep @ plenty positions?

    JVG is not the answer. I loved JFG, but he led us to 1 Finals during the weak years of the East, after CHI fell off & got killed by a power-house Spurs team. Ewing was hurt, but still, we put up no fight.

    Doc Rivers? No thanks. KG, Pierce, Allen...Rondo, Perkins, Big Baby...Shaq. I see 3 superstars, 2 or 3 stars & 4 BIG's who can D, rebound, contest shots & put up points. Who would be Doc's 4 BIG's for a top 10 D? Amare, JJ, Turiaf & Shelden?

  4. #64
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    FLorida. Thank god for the NBA league pass & MSG network.
    Posts
    1,112
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Those are just some of the names I've seen MDA doubters throw out there.

    I've also seen little talk of Sloan. We all know Sloan is a great winning head coach, but he also had a very deep Utah team this year, led by one of the top 3, if not the best overall PG in the league in D-Will. Sloan still didn't have Utah in position to compete or even stick with SA, LA or even the Thunder. How many years did Sloan coach Utah? Over 17-20 years right? How many trips to the Finals? How many years did Sloan have one of the two greatest PG's of all-time in Stockton along with one of the top 5 PF's that ever lived to play the game in Malone? Has to rank as one of... If not the greatest PG+PF duo's of all-time no?. How many rings do Sloan, Stockton & Malone combine for?

    I just see too much winning success in MDA during only 4 years with PHX. Finals & Championships or not; he's only been here for not even 3 years. 2 of those years were with pre-MDA-predicted disaster cap hell rosters. This has only been his 1st NY chance..

  5. #65
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,845
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Ahem.

    Those teams in the OP didn't win bc of defense, holmes. Any more than a wealthy hedge fund is wealthy because it's employees are good with numbers. Yes, they are, but it's so besides the point, and arbitrary/secondary, insofar as the causality and point you're trying to make; especially when the most legit and impactfull of causes...shred the causality trying to be made.

    OP's teams won bc they,

    Have some of, if not the, greatest collection of NBA talent and winners in the history of the game, and legendary dynasties. Period.

    A top to bottom juggernaut team of depth and defense (DET, which, btw, was a team that few of the masses said could win a chip, either...)

    And a BOS team headed by a chopping block coach defiled by his fan base and analysts more than D'ant ever has been, and ever will be; headlined by a defensive turnaround,

    Because several elite players were brought in, including a bonefied Defensive MVP type, who, as a player, changed their entire team culture.

    This OP and thread is another logical fallacy wrapped up by the logical fallacy that MDA as a coach cannot coach a good defensive team, and that we cannot win a title with him.

    Sensationalized, and generalized, speculations that might be true, sure. But very poor ones, that likely aren't. Possible, just not probable.

  6. #66
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,361
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    I think some people on here think I and others are hating on D'Antoni because we just like to.

    I am posting this thread not to debate about it more, but to show that our concerns on his defensive ratings and his lack of attention to it are almost certainly going to cost us a championship.

    Please find below the offensive and defensive ratings for the championship teams for the past 15 years. You will find only one occasion where the defensive rating was outside the top ten during the regular seasons (That team's defensive rating (Lakers) was top ten during the playoffs).

    Let us be clear about this.

    Defensively:
    • Only 1 out of the last 15 teams who won a championship had a defensive rating outside the top 10 (6%)
    • 14 out of the 15 teams were rated a top 10 defensive team (93%)
    • 11 out of the 15 teams were top 5 in defensive ratings (73%)
    • 13 out of the 15 teams were top 7 in defensive ratings (87%)
    • 5 out of the 15 teams were number 1 in the league in defensive rating (33%)
    Offensively:
    • Just 2 out of the 15 teams were best in the league offensively (13%)
    • 3 out of 15 teams won a championship with offense ratings outside the top ten (20%). Meaning it is 3x's more likely you will win a ring with offense outside the top ten than defense outside the top ten. AKA, Defense is more important than offense.
    • 9 out of the 15 teams were outside the top 5 offensively (60%)
    Combined
    • 11 out of the 15 teams were BOTH top ten in offense and defense.
    • 3 of the 4 who were not top ten in both offense and defense, were a top ten defensive team.
    Moral of the story is that only one team in the last 15 years was not in top 10 in defense. ONE. Of course that was the 2001 Lakers (never show up during the regular season). I checked their defensive ratings in the regular season compared to the playoffs. They raised their defensive rating to top of the league during the playoffs (only lost one game during the entire playoffs). So, even then, they were still one of the elite defensive teams in the playoffs. This makes EVERY team that won a championship for the past 15 years a top 10 defensive team.

    In the end, you want a balanced offense and defense, but the stats below ultimately prove that defense is more important. If you have offense outside the top 10 in the regular season, you stand a 20% chance of winning a championship. Still really bad odds, but, much better when compared to teams who fell outside of the top 10 defensive teams in the regular season (6%).

    You need a balance. You need offense and defense; but, if you are going to sacrifice one, you sacrifice offense and not defense. I'm not willing to put my odds at winning a championship at 6% (and that is provided MDA can make the Knicks a top defensive team during the playoffs).... Just not going to do it.

    Hopefully these stats show that I and others are not hating on MDA for no reason. We see a pattern -- bad defense doesn't win championships. This is why we call for a new coach or a coach who will stress D.

    Sure, we can be that 2001 Lakers anomaly with MDA as our coach (which really wasn't an anomaly when you see what the Lakers did defensively in the playoffs), but my questions are:
    • Wouldn't you rather be a part of the 93% group who won with defense? (100 percent when you look at the Lakers in the playoffs)
    • Doesn't that gives us a much better chance, no?
    Ultimately everyone on this board wants what's best for the Knicks. These stats show that being a top 10 defensive team is what is best for the Knicks. Do you really want to take a chance on a coach that has NEVER had a top 10 defensive team?

    Stats:

    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <wontVertAlignCellWithSp/> <wontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/> <wontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="true" DefSemiHidden="true" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99" LatentStyleCount="267"> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Normal"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="heading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" QFormat="true" Name="caption"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="59" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Table Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Placeholder Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Revision"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="List Paragraph"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]-->
    2010:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.8 (11th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 103.7 (4th of 30)

    2009:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 112.8 (3rd of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.7 (6th of 30)

    2008:
    Celtics: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 110.2 (10th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.9 (1st of 30)

    2007:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 109.2 (5th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.9 (2nd of 30)

    2006:
    Heat: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.7 (7th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.5 (9th of 30)

    2005:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.5 (8th of 30) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.8 (1st of 30)

    2004:
    Pistons: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 102.0 (18th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 95.4 (2nd of 29)

    2003:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 105.6 (7th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.7 (3rd of 29)

    2002:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 109.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 101.7 (7th of 29)

    2001:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 108.4 (2nd of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.8 (21st of 29)

    2000:
    Lakers: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.3 (5th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 98.2 (1st of 29)

    1999:
    Spurs: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 104.0 (11th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 95.0 (1st of 29)

    1998:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 107.7 (9th of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 99.8 (3rd of 29)

    1997:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 114.4 (1st of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 102.4 (4th of 29)

    1996:
    Bulls: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 115.2 (1st of 29) ▪ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: 101.8 (1st of 29)
    +1 rep for this post. People sometimes scoff at the old cliche that "Defense wins championships" but it is a cliche for a reason. Thanks for putting it down in real stats to show why some of us have a problem with the system MDA likes to run. If our main goal is to win a championship someday then these facts cannot be overlooked, whether you approve of MDA as our head coach or not.

  7. #67
    Superstar WrongIslander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Liverpool, England
    Posts
    579
    Rep Power
    5

    Default

    Which team won the title without having its roster complete and having no pre season training ?

    Yeah that stat probably doesn't matter though.

    I'm not saying that you MAY not be right about MDA but you can post a million stats as to why but you're pissing in the wind like the rest of us until he's given the chance to succeed or fail.

  8. #68
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    2,758
    Rep Power
    11

    Question Mark

    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Ahem.

    Those teams in the OP didn't win bc of defense, holmes. Any more than a wealthy hedge fund is wealthy because it's employees are good with numbers. Yes, they are, but it's so besides the point, and arbitrary/secondary, insofar as the causality and point you're trying to make; especially when the most legit and impactful of causes...shred the causality trying to be made.

    OP's teams won bc they,

    Have some of, if not the, greatest collection of NBA talent and winners in the history of the game, and legendary dynasties. Period.

    A top to bottom juggernaut team of depth and defense (DET, which, btw, was a team that few of the masses said could win a chip, either...)

    And a BOS team headed by a chopping block coach defiled by his fan base and analysts more than D'ant ever has been, and ever will be; headlined by a defensive turnaround,

    Because several elite players were brought in, including a bonefied Defensive MVP type, who, as a player, changed their entire team culture.

    This OP and thread is another logical fallacy wrapped up by the logical fallacy that MDA as a coach cannot coach a good defensive team, and that we cannot win a title with him.

    Sensationalized, and generalized, speculations that might be true, sure. But very poor ones, that likely aren't. Possible, just not probable.
    Dude, Musketeer's research is legit. Those championship teams did solid play D and they won in part because of it. You're right about them having legendary playerz, but that is part of the reason why they won. The fact most of those teams were in the top ten in d-rating is also integral to those teams winning it all.

    Some of us on the forum tend to overplay the player aspect, while others overplay coaching and strategy. But one thing is certain, (pay attention) no defensive coach, or defensive strategy can overcome having bad defensive players.

    What puts you in the best position to win w a solid, consistent team defense is if your best players are also capable, or even great defenders. This makes a coach's job so much easier because you DON'T HAVE TO SCHEME AROUND BAD DEFENSIVE PLAYERS THAT YOU ALSO HAVE TO GIVE BIG MINUTES TOO. This is such a basic, fundamental point that people don't understand. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Pippen, Isiah Thomas, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Wade, Garnett, Pierce were all great two-way players. U need them to win it all. If you have bad defenders you have to give minutes to because you need them on offense your screwed.

    Another thing about Mike D's old teams that kept them from being better defensively is you had Nash on the perimeter, who ideally you'd like to have just funnel guys to a shot blocker. But Mike D had no shot blocker. Amare sucked at blocking shots back then and Diaw was no shot swatter by any means. They tried to bring in Shaq but he caused the Ssol offense to sputter and never quite meshed w Nash and Amare, especially Amare who often found the paint clogged as he looked to go into his faceup move.

    The type of center Mike D needs is one that can shoot it some from the outside for when Amare gets doubled, who doesn't need to establish his game in the paint where Amare needs lanes. He needs to be able to run and block shots or take charges on D. If that kind of player was available when Mike D was coaching in Phoenix, I think they could have -again- been better defensively.

  9. #69
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,361
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    1 team that won a championship in recent years that didn't have legendary players on their roster was 1 of the best defensive teams in recent memory, the Detroit Pistons, so the theory that it takes legendary players to win a chip has already been disproven.

    But let's compare the present day Knicks with the Lakers team that had a 21 out of 29 defensive ranking, they still had role players step up their defensive effort in the playoffs like Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Harper, Brian Shaw & Horace Grant. I think the Knicks' supporting cast players we currently have can fill those roles in the postseason just as well, guys like Toney Douglas, Ronnie Turiaf, Shawne Williams, Jared Jeffries, Roger Mason, Anthony Carter & Shelden Williams have all shown an ability to play defense, the only question for me is will this coach be able to get those guys on the same page by the time the postseason rolls around or is his system fundamentally flawed in that aspect of basketball for it to happen? Judging from MDA's past teams' ability to make it to the WCF I believe we are close, but it will take a higher awareness & dedication to playing defense & controlling the pace of the game if this team is ever going to be a serious championship contender IMHO.

  10. #70
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    2,758
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Originally Posted by STAT1
    1 team that won a championship in recent years that didn't have legendary players on their roster was 1 of the best defensive teams in recent memory, the Detroit Pistons, so the theory that it takes legendary players to win a chip has already been disproven.

    But let's compare the present day Knicks with the Lakers team that had a 21 out of 29 defensive ranking, they still had role players step up their defensive effort in the playoffs like Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Harper, Brian Shaw & Horace Grant. I think the Knicks' supporting cast players we currently have can fill those roles in the postseason just as well, guys like Toney Douglas, Ronnie Turiaf, Shawne Williams, Jared Jeffries, Roger Mason, Anthony Carter & Shelden Williams have all shown an ability to play defense, the only question for me is will this coach be able to get those guys on the same page by the time the postseason rolls around or is his system fundamentally flawed in that aspect of basketball for it to happen? Judging from MDA's past teams' ability to make it to the WCF I believe we are close, but it will take a higher awareness & dedication to playing defense & controlling the pace of the game if this team is ever going to be a serious championship contender IMHO.

  11. #71
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,845
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Dude, Musketeer's research is legit. Those championship teams did solid play D and they won in part because of it. You're right about them having legendary playerz, but that is part of the reason why they won. The fact most of those teams were in the top ten in d-rating is also integral to those teams winning it all.

    Some of us on the forum tend to overplay the player aspect, while others overplay coaching and strategy. But one thing is certain, (pay attention) no defensive coach, or defensive strategy can overcome having bad defensive players.

    What puts you in the best position to win w a solid, consistent team defense is if your best players are also capable, or even great defenders. This makes a coach's job so much easier because you DON'T HAVE TO SCHEME AROUND BAD DEFENSIVE PLAYERS THAT YOU ALSO HAVE TO GIVE BIG MINUTES TOO. This is such a basic, fundamental point that people don't understand. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Pippen, Isiah Thomas, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Wade, Garnett, Pierce were all great two-way players. U need them to win it all. If you have bad defenders you have to give minutes to because you need them on offense your screwed.

    Another thing about Mike D's old teams that kept them from being better defensively is you had Nash on the perimeter, who ideally you'd like to have just funnel guys to a shot blocker. But Mike D had no shot blocker. Amare sucked at blocking shots back then and Diaw was no shot swatter by any means. They tried to bring in Shaq but he caused the Ssol offense to sputter and never quite meshed w Nash and Amare, especially Amare who often found the paint clogged as he looked to go into his faceup move.

    The type of center Mike D needs is one that can shoot it some from the outside for when Amare gets doubled, who doesn't need to establish his game in the paint where Amare needs lanes. He needs to be able to run and block shots or take charges on D. If that kind of player was available when Mike D was coaching in Phoenix, I think they could have -again- been better defensively.
    Everything you wrote I agree with. Majorly agree with; and is actually the backbone for what I wrote. The one thing I disagree with, and what my post was about:

    That Muskateer's research, legit? Most definitely. The facts? True and honest. The effort and presentation? Terrific and commendable.

    Their conclusion -- that a good to very good defensive team is a likely requirement to have the best shot at winning chips? (obviously) True.

    His conclusion -- that this reflects directly on D'anton in some major or obvious wayi; that it any way reflects that those coaches are superior to D'antoni (though most are); that the statistics have most to do coaching wizardy and defensive genius, and the ensuing tethering to a D'antoni Fatal Flaw,

    bull****.

    Stated facts, which are true, and have true causalities and conclusions tied to them (which you detailed in your post above), and that bear signficence to a discussion on the Knicks's winning a title and what the Knicks need,

    instead warped, and desperately tethered to a separate speculation, and attempt to justify an arbitrary conclusion, creating a logical fallacy.

    Another logical fallacy -- 1STAT's post, which I too agree with at the end of the day. But, mentioning that one team out of this all-powerful list won a chip, without "legendary players"....Totally true,

    But doesn't disprove you "need "legendary players. First, I never said that, and if i messed up and said "you need legendary players" i was wrong, and didn't intend to state that as an absolute.

    *But*, just like Muskateer is trying to say you generally need a good defensive team to win a title (true, of course), and that outliers; freakish occurrences; and that which is *unlikely* shouldn't be relied on to best win a championship. Ergo, MDA should go ASAP because the bottom-line is that he represents the course of most resistant, and *the least likely* way we can ever win a chip.

    The Piston team you mentioned is just that -- an unlikely, rare occurrence. Based on the exceptionally rare depth/quantity of sick defensive players. Even here, we are talking about players -- and elite players. In this case, elite players regarding defense/team defense.

    This still opposed to the most likely necessary, and important of things -- "legendary players". Which let's simplify to say Really Good Players.

    And for the purpose of this discussion, that you need (good) players above all else. And the examples Muskateer provided, and detailed, show that it is the players -- above all else -- that dictate the championships,

    Including dictating the defense a team needs to win them. Which, I'll give total credit, Muskateer perfectly and totally elucidated and described. And did so in really ****ing good presentation.

    The buffer for all this, is that regardless of speculations (mine included) about MDA on defense...on offense...how his past can be interpret, how it can be used to forecast our future,

    The most undeniable metrics for a team's success and the subsequent evaluation of it's coach....are undeniably in MDA's favor with the Knick's at this point.

    When MDA actually begins to truly underwhelm (the playoffs, and at the latest early next season seems like it'd be a valid time to re-evaluate his job with our latest roster)....but when our team and our team's players....underperform to the expectations of Knick fans and analysts at large, the massive influx of anti-MDA threads and talk wouldn't just be expected...but for me, would be most appropriate.

    Just like Doc Rivers was a donkey about to be fired who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag. His team wins, and you forget about everything except the performance of players, their expectations, and if they are ultimately winning.

  12. #72
    Superstar WrongIslander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Liverpool, England
    Posts
    579
    Rep Power
    5

    Default

    Originally Posted by iSaYughh


    ......


    The most undeniable metrics for a team's success and the subsequent evaluation of it's coach....are undeniably in MDA's favor with the Knick's at this point.

    When MDA actually begins to truly underwhelm (the playoffs, and at the latest early next season seems like it'd be a valid time to re-evaluate his job with our latest roster)....but when our team and our team's players....underperform to the expectations of Knick fans and analysts at large, the massive influx of anti-MDA threads and talk wouldn't just be expected...but for me, would be most appropriate.

    Just like Doc Rivers was a donkey about to be fired who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag. His team wins, and you forget about everything except the performance of players, their expectations, and if they are ultimately winning.
    Far too considered and calm a post for this thread, now get your pitch fork and let's get back to work!

  13. #73
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,463
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Isyah please explain...

    The most undeniable metrics for a team's success and the subsequent evaluation of it's coach....are undeniably in MDA's favor with the Knick's at this point.

  14. #74
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,845
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Isyah please explain...

    The most undeniable metrics for a team's success and the subsequent evaluation of it's coach....are undeniably in MDA's favor with the Knick's at this point.
    Pretty much everyone on this forum, and NBA analysts in general, had expectations for our team, how players would do, and just how dangerous we could be this year.

    Pretty much every single one of them has been met, or exceeded. Granted, maybe we really tank rest of season -- even with Melo -- and, or, get roasted in the playoffs. That will change things, but to date at least....

    Actually, the biggest MDA skeptics, haters, whatever...had the lowest expectations as a whole, and have had them met the most.

    They don't post as regularly anymore -- not slagging them for that, they just aren't as visible (abcd, eg).

    MDA was supposed to NOT let this team be able to make the playoffs, have a quality record, develop *any* young talent. So those things then became the main metric for him to be judged.

    Our win/loss, making making playoffs, and the general perception of "could they really }^*% those fools up?" type of ability to score an upset. Plus, just overall evaluations of players (including AR, which is a neg...but also, Fields/Chandler/Gallo/Douglas, and even STAT who quite a few didn't think would be able to put up *these* numbers)

    edit -- perhaps there is a method to his madness, and not just a madness to his method.

  15. #75
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,361
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Originally Posted by WrongIslander
    Far too considered and calm a post for this thread, now get your pitch fork and let's get back to work!

    IMO comments like this ruin a thread where people are presenting well thought out opinions & backing them up with solid reasoning. Whether you agree with them or not, if you can back up your logic with facts the way the OP has so done then it makes for a great thread. Minimizing everyone's opinions with snitty comments does nothing to add to the overall thread. & I don't say that to get on your case I think you're an awesome poster dude, but doesn't everyone deserve a chance to voice their opinions too as long as it's not done in such a way to incite childish negative commentary?

Similar Threads

  1. What a defensive coach can do for you
    By MusketeerX in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: Mar 15, 2011, 09:50
  2. What has Damntoni Done?
    By Knicksfansince92 in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 150
    Last Post: Feb 17, 2011, 22:47
  3. MIKE D plays DEFENSIVE Players so STOPPP THE NONSENSE.
    By DontForgetDerekHarper in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: Jan 18, 2011, 12:25
  4. PLAN-B: Joe Johnson, Amar'e, D-Lee !!!
    By mafra in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Jun 27, 2010, 21:01
  5. KnicksOnline Fantasy Basketball 08-09 Season
    By metrocard in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 225
    Last Post: Dec 29, 2008, 15:44

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •