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Thread: Another DFDH must read....I rest my case : Fire This F---ing bum.

  1. #16
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    You could also make the case that trying to build a "dynasty" around one superstar in Amar'e could have been a train wreck as well...cause you know...Kobe won without Shaq and Pau, Dirk has a few rings, LBJ has a few rings, Howard got past Kobe and Pau, Paul Pierce, KG, and Allen all won rings when they tried to get it done by themselves...you know...building a team with one superstar when the last 15 (14 if you want to unfairly overlook the '04 Pistons) champions all got it done with 2 or more stars, or at the very least dominant players at their position (regardless of whether or not they got the media attention and commercials.)

    Getting Melo was step one, step two is getting a coach who can utilize what he has and get the very best out of his team and all of his players. You don't have to be on the All-NBA defensive team to play solid team defense...there's not a single NBA squad with 5 starters on that list, but there are multiple squads who have their coaches preach defense and also implement the defensive game plans and their adjustments. MDA does not.

    This change is necessary.

  2. #17
    Veteran DontForgetDerekHarper's Avatar
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    Yeah I dont want to get into the debate whether melo was a good trade or not, because at the end of the day , although denver has 10 deep in talent with 3 shot blocking presences we are not a complete team yet.


    the bottom line isnt whether we are a complete enough team to compete for a chip right now

    but that losing twice to the cavs
    and then twice to the pacers in terrible fashion
    is a reflection of horrible coaching

    it has nothing to do with whether melo or amare are this or that or this or that or blah blah blah

    it has to do with our coach not preparing in game or pre game to handle teams with lesser ability.

  3. #18
    Member knicksman20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    You could also make the case that trying to build a "dynasty" around one superstar in Amar'e could have been a train wreck as well...cause you know...Kobe won without Shaq and Pau, Dirk has a few rings, LBJ has a few rings, Howard got past Kobe and Pau, Paul Pierce, KG, and Allen all won rings when they tried to get it done by themselves...you know...building a team with one superstar when the last 15 (14 if you want to unfairly overlook the '04 Pistons) champions all got it done with 2 or more stars, or at the very least dominant players at their position (regardless of whether or not they got the media attention and commercials.)

    Getting Melo was step one, step two is getting a coach who can utilize what he has and get the very best out of his team and all of his players. You don't have to be on the All-NBA defensive team to play solid team defense...there's not a single NBA squad with 5 starters on that list, but there are multiple squads who have their coaches preach defense and also implement the defensive game plans and their adjustments. MDA does not.

    This change is necessary.
    And to add to your post (which is right on point) a good coach can hide defensive deficiencies from his players by emphasizing team defense & having a game plan defensively to slow down the the opposing team. All of the great defensive teams collectively play great team defense. They might not have great individual defenders but as a team they're great.

  4. #19
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    You could also make the case that trying to build a "dynasty" around one superstar in Amar'e could have been a train wreck as well...cause you know...Kobe won without Shaq and Pau, Dirk has a few rings, LBJ has a few rings, Howard got past Kobe and Pau, Paul Pierce, KG, and Allen all won rings when they tried to get it done by themselves...you know...building a team with one superstar when the last 15 (14 if you want to unfairly overlook the '04 Pistons) champions all got it done with 2 or more stars, or at the very least dominant players at their position (regardless of whether or not they got the media attention and commercials.)

    Getting Melo was step one, step two is getting a coach who can utilize what he has and get the very best out of his team and all of his players. You don't have to be on the All-NBA defensive team to play solid team defense...there's not a single NBA squad with 5 starters on that list, but there are multiple squads who have their coaches preach defense and also implement the defensive game plans and their adjustments. MDA does not.

    This change is necessary.
    I'm not sold that multiple max contract players is the only way to build a championship team. They need to compliment each other well, first and foremost. I don't think Melo and Amare compliment each other well. There were much better options than gutting the team for Melo. He's one of the most overrated "superstars" I've ever seen and only exacerbates our deficiencies. Every team that has won a championship had balance and depth, not multiple max-contract level players. I disagree, I don't think the trade was necessary. $18 mil in cap space + our roster could have surrounded Amare with a lot of solid talent. The Bulls are contenders, how many max-contract players do they have?

  5. #20
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    I can't see what's dumb about wanting to address what has become an increasing concern for our team.

    *Get a new sig
    Crazy 8 I respect you a lot man.

    My point is that there have been reasonings and examples to Fire D'antoni in at least 10 threads in the past month, and even more than that since the season has started. I am just as frustrated as anyone, but it's not like this thread is bringing up something that has not bee mentioned before (and before, and before)

    That's all. (P.S. I love my sig, who doesn't like the Krypto-nates?!)

    And to comment on #5, I think our 2nd team hung in pretty well, I remember them hitting some big shots to come OUT of the defecit, not go down by double digits. Maybe that was an isolated event? Maybe I fell for a second.

    Anyway god bless, and good riddance to D'antoni --- Woulda loved to see Byron Scott step in, but let's hope for Van Gundy to make a COMEBACK!

  6. #21
    Veteran DontForgetDerekHarper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by platnumn
    Crazy 8 I respect you a lot man.

    My point is that there have been reasonings and examples to Fire D'antoni in at least 10 threads in the past month, and even more than that since the season has started. I am just as frustrated as anyone, but it's not like this thread is bringing up something that has not bee mentioned before (and before, and before)

    That's all. (P.S. I love my sig, who doesn't like the Krypto-nates?!)

    And to comment on #5, I think our 2nd team hung in pretty well, I remember them hitting some big shots to come OUT of the defecit, not go down by double digits. Maybe that was an isolated event? Maybe I fell for a second.

    Anyway god bless, and good riddance to D'antoni --- Woulda loved to see Byron Scott step in, but let's hope for Van Gundy to make a COMEBACK!


    well being that I have created 5 of those 10 posts in the past month, You cant act as if its random, its centralized around one obvious theme; we do have advanced talent to work with, and we are regressing, and its increasingly obvious that our coach isnt helping this team improve in the areas where they lack.

    the definition of a basketball coach is as follows



    Basketball coaching is the act of directing and strategizing the behavior of a basketball team or individual basketball player. Basketball coaching typically encompasses the improvement of individual and team offensive and defensive skills, as well as overall physical conditioning.

    OUR COACH DOES NONE OF THE BOLD.

    fire him NOW

  7. #22
    Veteran petescud's Avatar
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    I agree...was hoping to steal Melo, but not give up our youth...I am not a GM nor do i know as much as most of you about the $$$ involved...What we need now is basically the same we needed before the trade. We need a real center and a Bruce Bowens player. Then we need to enforce some defense on this team and hold players accountable



    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Everyone realizes that our foundation is the two laziest defensive "superstars" in the league, right?

    Everyone that had watched this team before the trade knew what we needed. We were the #2 team offensively and needed more defense, outside shooting, and a quality big man. But we traded our best outside shooter, best defender and best young big man for a poor outside shooter that is one of the worst defensive "superstars" and least efficient scorers in the league. Subtraction by subtraction.

    I could see this trainwreck coming from a mile away.

  8. #23
    SWAGABURY KingStarbury3's Avatar
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    Amare is atrocious on defense, i do think Melo is a better defender then Amare but as LJ pointed out thats our foundation, two stars that can score with the best of them but also get scored on by the worst of them.

    The question is is it the players fault or the coaches fault?

    George Karl was also unable to get Melo to play defense

    Amare never did play any defense and never knew how to. At times hes shown some effort this year, at other times....

    Id say its both the players on the team and Antoni's fault. The knicks need a GREAT motivator

  9. #24
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I'm not sold that multiple max contract players is the only way to build a championship team. They need to compliment each other well, first and foremost. I don't think Melo and Amare compliment each other well. There were much better options than gutting the team for Melo. He's one of the most overrated "superstars" I've ever seen and only exacerbates our deficiencies. Every team that has won a championship had balance and depth, not multiple max-contract level players. I disagree, I don't think the trade was necessary. $18 mil in cap space + our roster could have surrounded Amare with a lot of solid talent. The Bulls are contenders, how many max-contract players do they have?
    I never said max contracts in my post. I merely made the point that in today's NBA building a "solid" team is not enough, there have been countless of those "solid" teams without rings while teams with multiple stars, or at least players who were dominant at their position, have gone on to eliminate those solid teams built around one superstar, in a seven game series.

    I know about the Bulls...I watch the NBA, but I also remember the Cleveland Cavs last year having the number one defensive team and winning 60+ games, and the Celtics had the ability to take them apart and force them to play LeBron-ball....either stop the supporting cast and let LBJ go off, or try to contain LBJ and dare the supporting cast to beat them. It was the same thing with the Magic the year before that. I will look past the hype of the Bulls impressive regular season and ask "why can't it be the same with the Bulls?" You need balance and depth in the playoffs. Ideally, you obtain that balance with solid defense, and more than one option on offense who can carry your team if need be. When it's only been Dirk, Kobe, KG, Paul, LBJ, Wade, Dwight, there hasn't been any rings.

    There's a blueprint that's been established, maybe one day a team will win it where it's HIM and the rest of them. But the past 15 seasons says that blueprint won't work in the currently constructed league, so let's not follow that one.

    And I don't exactly agree with Melo and STAT not being complementary, because one can kind of be ball dominant while the other's position doesn't exactly allow him to dominant the ball. Draw up plays that take advantage of both of their talents, kind of like that play in Memphis where STAT runs over and slips the screen for Melo...options, talent, devastation on the defense. It can be done by a coach who isn't married to his "philosophy" and can adapt to what he has as opposed to needing "special" players to fit his system...this isn't football where a 3-4 linebacker wouldn't quite fit a 4-3 scheme...this is the NBA...size, easy buckets, defense, championship.

  10. #25
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    Originally Posted by DontForgetDerekHarper
    well being that I have created 5 of those 10 posts in the past month, You cant act as if its random, its centralized around one obvious theme; we do have advanced talent to work with, and we are regressing, and its increasingly obvious that our coach isnt helping this team improve in the areas where they lack.

    the definition of a basketball coach is as follows



    Basketball coaching is the act of directing and strategizing the behavior of a basketball team or individual basketball player. Basketball coaching typically encompasses the improvement of individual and team offensive and defensive skills, as well as overall physical conditioning.

    OUR COACH DOES NONE OF THE BOLD.

    fire him NOW

    Summed up well. Could done that in one thread =P

    Haha I'm just playin, but yeah that is well-said, and I absolutely agree.

  11. #26
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    I don't really get the argument of the Bulls.

    Boozer is almost a max contract player. Rose is currently this seasons MVP (equivalent of a max contract player). They have a great supporting cast and a great head coach who preaches defense.

    They also have extremely good players at the two most important positions on the floor (1 and 5).

    I think Boozer can be counted as a "star" the same way Allen/Pierce/Garnett are "stars".

    So Chicago has 1-2 allstars (boozer/noah), the best PG if not best player in the NBA this season (rose), quality big man depth (gibson/kurt thomas), some good sharpshooters (deng to a degree, korver) and pretty much every one of their players is a 2 way player.

    Notice Boozer, who was knocked plenty for his defense in Utah, suddenly does not appear to be a crappy defensive player anymore (and don't use Noah as an excuse, he missed 31 games).

    So yeah, trying to say Chicago are not building a team around a handful of star players is kinda inaccurate imo.

  12. #27
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smokes
    I don't really get the argument of the Bulls.

    Boozer is almost a max contract player. Rose is currently this seasons MVP (equivalent of a max contract player). They have a great supporting cast and a great head coach who preaches defense.

    They also have extremely good players at the two most important positions on the floor (1 and 5).

    I think Boozer can be counted as a "star" the same way Allen/Pierce/Garnett are "stars".

    So Chicago has 1-2 allstars (boozer/noah), the best PG if not best player in the NBA this season (rose), quality big man depth (gibson/kurt thomas), some good sharpshooters (deng to a degree, korver) and pretty much every one of their players is a 2 way player.

    Notice Boozer, who was knocked plenty for his defense in Utah, suddenly does not appear to be a crappy defensive player anymore (and don't use Noah as an excuse, he missed 31 games).

    So yeah, trying to say Chicago are not building a team around a handful of star players is kinda inaccurate imo.
    I guess we'll see, cause the 09-10 Cavs was a very similar team. Defensive minded coach (Brown), top defensive team (ranked #1 last year), MVP of the league (LBJ), center that can handle his own in the paint and have a tangible impact on the game (Varejeo), right hand man of the star who's going to be leaned on and relied on to step his game up in the playoffs when teams take away the #1 option and dare him to beat them (Mo Williams).

    This is just me looking at this Bulls team and saying..."wait...all of this hype seems eerily familiar" and drawing a comparison between the two teams. I could be totally wrong, and if the Bulls win their chip I'll be the first one to call myself out. All we can do is wait and see.

  13. #28
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smokes
    I don't really get the argument of the Bulls.

    Boozer is almost a max contract player. Rose is currently this seasons MVP (equivalent of a max contract player). They have a great supporting cast and a great head coach who preaches defense.

    They also have extremely good players at the two most important positions on the floor (1 and 5).

    I think Boozer can be counted as a "star" the same way Allen/Pierce/Garnett are "stars".

    So Chicago has 1-2 allstars (boozer/noah), the best PG if not best player in the NBA this season (rose), quality big man depth (gibson/kurt thomas), some good sharpshooters (deng to a degree, korver) and pretty much every one of their players is a 2 way player.

    Notice Boozer, who was knocked plenty for his defense in Utah, suddenly does not appear to be a crappy defensive player anymore (and don't use Noah as an excuse, he missed 31 games).

    So yeah, trying to say Chicago are not building a team around a handful of star players is kinda inaccurate imo.
    Precisely, 1 max, and 1 all-star surrounded by a lot of good players and depth + bench. This is the model for building a contender (see Lakers). We're not following that model, we're following Miami's plan of multiple max-level players surrounded by whatever is left that we can afford, and little depth. For the money we're giving to Melo, we could have got an all-star big man + another player (knock down shooter SG). ADDING this to our previous roster (Felton, Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, Randolph/trade asset) would have made us contenders.

    And as I've stated before, it's my opinion that Melo is not a good complimentary star to Amare. If it's another max level player that must be added, we could have done a lot better considering Amare and this team's needs. Deron Williams??

  14. #29
    Superstar WrongIslander's Avatar
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    Geting a bit farcicle how there is another thread saying the same stuff practially ever hour.

    I like this site, I can respect your opinions when they are presented in certain ways but a new thread on the same topic over and over and over doesn't do anyone any good.

    Really we need one FIRE MIKE thread and for everyone to put their views in there.

    Don't shoot the messenger.

  15. #30
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Precisely, 1 max, and 1 all-star surrounded by a lot of good players and depth + bench. This is the model for building a contender (see Lakers). We're not following that model, we're following Miami's plan of multiple max-level players surrounded by whatever is left that we can afford, and little depth. For the money we're giving to Melo, we could have got an all-star big man + another player (knock down shooter SG). ADDING this to our previous roster (Felton, Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, Randolph/trade asset) would have made us contenders.

    And as I've stated before, it's my opinion that Melo is not a good complimentary star to Amare. If it's another max level player that must be added, we could have done a lot better considering Amare and this team's needs. Deron Williams??
    But Pau Gasol got a max extension from the Lakers in 2009... He was only in the league like 8 years, and the cap was lower, so his max deal isn't as rich as current max deals/extensions...

    Melo getting a max extension with the Knicks makes him a max player, but Pau getting a max extension in 2009 doesn't make him a max player? The Lakers just also happen to have a Lamar Odom who's not making max money, but could certainly get it from a team in the NBA...dude's only making 8 mil behind Kobe, Pau, and Bynum...who all have Bird Rights in effect with LA...so they can go over the cap to resign them.

    LA has two max contracts on the books. They re-signed Odom in July 2009, then use Pau's Bird Rights to give him the max extension in Dec 2009, and they give Kobe his max extension in April 2010...this is all with Bynum already on the books.

    So the Lakers might be a bad example since they've maxed out two players, and I'm not sure about Bynum, there's a chance that he's maxed too considering how much he's making and how many years of service he had in 2008 when he got re-upped.

    I think a more accurate version of what you want is Dirk surrounded by people in Dallas, and LBJ surrounded by a lot of good players in Cleveland. But since those teams didn't produce rings, it's not really an option. But if your argument is against max deals, then the Lakers don't qualify.

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