This Is Why We Need A New Coach.

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Like Red said...all of this is a culmination of:

I made this point before. The Knicks seem to do everything exactly opposite of conventional basketball wisdom.

Offense should be inside out...but we're outside in.

Defense should start on the perimeter and deny penetration and have our bigs provide support and help.....but we let everyone and their moms get right in the paint and attack the cup then we're scrambling to try to close out on shots, and rotate extremely late on wing players....inside out.

These are the things I've been seeing since MDA got here and they have nothing to do with talent, but more so the schemes and coaching (or lack thereof.)

It's disgusting.



I get everything you're saying, but I think you're kind of mixing apples with oranges. When you ask "can you blame Mike for the horror show back then?" are you talking about the wins and loses or the fashion in which we won and lost? Because they're not quite the same thing.

The Knicks lack of defensive fundamentals (mostly having to do with team defense) was there as well. But it was just too easy to sit back and say "oh, well...we're shedding salary..." but now that the purging is complete, we have some pieces, the majority of them had training camp & preseason together...and those same defensive flaws that were present in 2008 & 2009, reared their ugly heads in 2010...and they're still here in 2011.

Even if this team acquires all of the missing pieces deemed needed, gels, and continues to play this way on the defensive end next year...we will be in no better position.

Something is wrong out there...there are either no set defensive strategies being installed and implemented, or there are...and the guys are ignoring MDA. Because team defense has very little to do with talent, just like Billups said and I see it in your sig, most defense is positioning, awareness, and effort...if players are not in the right spots, have their heads in the clouds, and are acting like a pregnant woman in her 8th month...who's job is it to light a fire under those dude's asses to get back to the plan installed for this game? You don't need STAT, Melo, Billups, a defensive 5, and whoever else all to be on the same team, nice and gelled, for 2 seasons to hold people accountable and get back to your game plan.

I can live with a team playing the way the Knicks did in the 3rd Q last night, but can't pull out a win because of a lack of talent, or cohesiveness on the offensive end...the ironic thing is tho, if you play D like that for 4 quarters....you're gonna win more games than you lose. But that kind of defensive intensity and focus is a rarity for the Knicks and the 4th Q defensive efforts are far more common.

Let's all get past wins and losses and records for a sec, and lets look at HOW we're winning and losing these games.

Obviously some of the blame has to go to the players, but when it's an on going situation that has been there from day one, it has nothing to do with who's directing these players? The Knicks have had 30+ defensively unmotivated, and lazy players since MDA got here? And even if that was the case, he couldn't do anything to get more out of them? It's just ":shrug:ehhh these guys don't wanna play D....let's score a lot of points?"

The signs were obviously there...some missed it, some saw it. Those who seemed to have missed said signs have been eerily quiet on these boards. But I'll give them a pass because that loss on friday was absolutely crushing. I sat in my seat for another 5 mins after the final buzzer in shock....I don't even wanna go today...
 

Red

TYPE-A
Like Red said...all of this is a culmination of:







The signs were obviously there...some missed it, some saw it. Those who seemed to have missed said signs have been eerily quiet on these boards. But I'll give them a pass because that loss on friday was absolutely crushing. I sat in my seat for another 5 mins after the final buzzer in shock....I don't even wanna go today...

Putting things into perspective- this isn't about one loss or a series loss to Boston. They have now have beaten us SEVEN straight going on eight.

Walsh or whoever takes control, please bring me a coach that can maximize our potential and improve us on defense. Please. Then work on the player personnel.
 

abcd

KnicksonLIN.com
Great thread, Red. I agree, Antoni has to go.

He hasn't done anything for the team in 3 seasons.

Any coach could have gotten the Knicks to the playoffs, with this roster.

It takes a real coach to compete.

This team should have won at least 1-2 games against Boston. A sweep is inexcusable.

And the injury excuse is lame. The Knicks were healthy in games 1 and 2.

And Antoni's short 7-8 man rotation was a big reason why STAT and Chauncey got hurt in the first place. He refused to rest his star players.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Not so fast..

This year and the playoff birth that came w it is just one stage in what we all knew was a multi-yr plan.

The only stated goal going in to this season, by both MDA and Donnie, was to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

That's it.

In my estimation there is 95- 99% MDA will be back next year if Donnie is resigned.

This team as it stands at this moment, is fundamentally flawed. The way we've competed inspite of the injuries and incomplete makeup of the team has been commendable IMO.

Let me list the things we have going against us currently:

1. The loss of Billups.. And we all know how important it is that we have a facilitator at the position. He's a scoring point guard, but he knows how to get a team into an offensive set. He's also able to help our spacing w his outside shooting, another thing we've missed dearly. As I've said before Billups injury killed our hopes at having any chance at beating the Celts, particularly in the last game where we didn't even look respectable.

2. We don't have Amare at 100%. I don't think this has anything to do w the minutes he's played over the course of the yr. Amare's averaged 37 min per game, which is not insane. Other stars around the league play comparable minutes. The injury also occurred in warmups when he tried to dunk the basketball, not in a game. It's a silly to say MDA is the cause. I think he managed Amare's minutes pretty well this season inspite of needing him to contribute significantly as he was our only star for more than half of the season.

Not having Amare available to play like Amare has put more pressure on guys like JJ and Turiaf to anchor the middle and they can't be asked do this w good effect for to long. How can anyone blame effort as the cause of the blowout on Fri when we were clearly overmatched along the front line? This is not MDA's fault. We're overmatched in the backcourt as well, which brings me to my next point.

3. Landry Fields... Where do I start w him?? His awkward, inept play has left a gaping chasm at the 2 so stupid-huge it's silly. This guy clearly is spent. He's never played a season like this before and he doesn't have his legs beneath him. He also hasn't figured out how to exist on the court w Melo. As a result, he's still not sure how to maximize the limited opportunities he now gets. I think the game-speed of the playoffs has effected him too. The game speeds up around this team of year. Good rookies can adjust to the speed of the regular season to a reasonable degree, but it becomes much more difficult to do this in the playoffs. This factor has exposed him IMO.

Unfortunately we don't have too many other options but to keep trotting him out there. I've been tempted towards wondering whether Mason would be a better option at this point, but I think MDA is reluctant to damage Field's confidence by benching him at the start of games, especially as it became clear to him that the team was fighting an uphill battle w out even factoring in the injuries to Billups and Amare. If we don't trade him, we'll need him believing in himself and trusting the coach next year when he'll likely be able to play effectively through the rigors of a long season w out the debilitating attrition we've seen.


4. Tony Douglas is not adequate as a backup facilitating PG. He has also been shown to be defenseless against both Rondo and Allen. They've both comprehensively destroyed the poor kid. He'll be better for it next yr, but I hope everyone sees clearly now that he simply isn't the answer at point in the future. No frigging way.

TD not being able to sustain us at his position made us look like D-league squad in game 3. Again how is MDA to blame for this?


Yes there have been some seeming errors. The pass to JJ in game 2.. People say Turiaf should have been in the game instead of him. Well to that I say Amare should have been available to carry us home along Melo. Also what guarantee do we have that Turiaf would have been able to finish w one of the best defensive bigs in the game closing on him. It's easy to blame MDA for the play drawn up and the personnel on the floor, but i'm not sure the options he had on the bench were that much better. We were outmatched and thus MUCH easier to stop. Think about how easy is it to double one star player and rotate your HOF big underneath the basket to defend the paint after Melo's pass smh. You say MDA was out- coached. I say he was outgunned. Amare would have finished that play as he has all season for us down the stretch. MDA didn't have this luxury.

There was one thing that I will say really bothered me w re: to MDA, and it also occurred in game 2. It was when Boston's guards were able to dribble the clock out behind the halfcourt line-- a clear error by our coach. Our guys should have been aware that Boston could do this.

This is really the only thing I can get on coach for.

Not having timeouts is important, but if you remember, we burned several in each of the games fighting for lose balls. I do think MDA should have atleast one 20 sec at the end of a game however.

Overall, I think this team has fought admirably in these games, especially in games 1 & 2. Let us also remember that the defense was really solid in both outings. In game 3 Boston basically figured out they were playing against a wounded team talent wise, a team also in a state of flux.


I'd like the team to continue under MDA, but as Musketeer has pointed out, historically his overall philosophy may not be conducive to winning a championship. I agree that he should make rm on his bench for a defensive minded assistant coach. He should also lengthen the rotation over the course of next season. Shortening it in the playoffs is fine but it really helps the defense when you can keep fresh guys coming in. This should be intuitive, especially on a team that likes to expend effort running..

Filling the holes this team has will also go a long way obviously aswell.

One more thought..

Can you guys imagine how we'd look if Melo and Amare had the whole season to develop chemistry as Wade and Lebron have?

Let's remember this team is one that has essentially played only 30 or so games together. To ask our guys to do more than we have thus far against a seasoned Boston squad w our injuries and lack of familiarity is asking alot, too much IMO. Team upheaval like we've seen should happen in the offseason, not mid-season. Realistically no one should've expected us to win more than one game in this series.

To simply blame MDA for where we're at w out rationally considering other factors that impinge on his options and flexibility during these games is downright silly. Some are using this opportunity based on said lack of options/flexibility to call for our coaches head and this IMO is not fair.

There's alot more to this thing than JUST D'ant guys. It's one thing to sort of carelessly gloss over these other factors. It's another thing to really understand and acknowledge how these issues affect our team and MDA's ability to coach effectively.

That said, in the playoffs and thruout the season, i think he's been a huge positive for us. He's shown he can really coach in a pinch, w massive change having gone on underneath him while dealing w the pressure of securing a playoff position-- no easy feat. This is something that bodes well for us as the team continues to change.

We're on the right track.

Though the losses to Boston hurt, but i'm not yet ready to say we need to go in another direction re: our coach.
 
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I agree this coach is in over his head. You have arguably the two best players on the floor and you cant get a win on your home court. Not only cant you get a win you are getting SPANKED? No effort. No adjustments. Just shoot jump shot after junp shot hoping someone gets hot?

I tried to explain to you all this is NBA EASTERN CONFERENCE PLAYOFF BASKETBALL. That stuff that flies out west isnt happening over here. Add to the fact that we're playing a seasoned, veteran team that really understands the concept of DEFENSE, and its easy to see why we're playing the way we are. Relying on that SSOL aint happening in these here playoffs.

Fire MDA as soon as the game is over today. Its the best thing for the team and the best thing for him...
 

mafra

Legend
14-14 since Carmelo arrived and getting swept in the first round equals D'antoni getting fired. It has to be. Fair or not. Mike was schooled by Rivers in the first 2 games. He was abused at the half each of the first 3 games, as BOS blew us out in the 3rd quarters, and his coaching in the final 2 minutes was partly responsible for us getting swept.

BUT... going w/ TD too long over A Carter, playing Jeffries, Walker and Shawne too much. HIs system/offense, and reliance on low pct, 3-point shots... HIs lack of any design on defense, and his inability to inspire his troops...

F-I-R-E-D.

The fan base needs some meat thrown to us... It can't be Melo or Amar'e. Give us the next best thing. BEG Van Gundy to return or just hire Mark Jackson.
 

Wargames

Starter
14-14 since Carmelo arrived and getting swept in the first round equals D'antoni getting fired. It has to be. Fair or not. Mike was schooled by Rivers in the first 2 games. He was abused at the half each of the first 3 games, as BOS blew us out in the 3rd quarters, and his coaching in the final 2 minutes was partly responsible for us getting swept.

BUT... going w/ TD too long over A Carter, playing Jeffries, Walker and Shawne too much. HIs system/offense, and reliance on low pct, 3-point shots... HIs lack of any design on defense, and his inability to inspire his troops...

F-I-R-E-D.

The fan base needs some meat thrown to us... It can't be Melo or Amar'e. Give us the next best thing. BEG Van Gundy to return or just hire Mark Jackson.

Also I have a feeling Walsh is going to retire... i don't want him too but considering you haven't heard anything about him re-signing with the knicks led me to believe that he didn't want to add drama to the end of the season.... So yeah unfortunately it makes a certain amount of sense that D'antoni would be fired by the New GM to give him a chance to give the team a new look.

Also considering every other team was able to give the arguably better opponent at least 1 lost it means the Knicks were the worse team in these playoffs.....
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
Mike D's big problem is he really doesn't have any sense whatsoever when it comes to using his players.

For example, everybody in the world knows that interior defense and size (and thus rebounding) is one of our big problems. It's why I heaped all sorts of praise on D'Antoni when he gave Shelden Williams minutes towards the end of the season, he seemed to finally see our need for rebounding.

And come playoffs Shelden Williams doesn't even play a single minute.

Coach started using Bill Walker way too late, Walker's a decent player but he only had about 10 games of regular playing time before the playoffs started...you can't just insert a player in and expect him to perform amazingly...

Coach heavily depended on Shawne Williams in the regular season but inexplicably sat him for most of Game 1. Roger Mason, Jr. played only twice in the entire month of April during the regular season but coach decided to give him some burn in the playoffs...why? Anthony Carter, who played well for us after the trade, got no time in Game 1 or Game 2...I mean, come on.

There are just some things that make you wonder if coach is actually COACHING or if he's just playing an NBA Live game with customized stats
 

skisloper

Starter
You guys continue to just blame Dantonio....

We did not have the same starting 5 for a season.
We blew up our team at the tradeline.
We have players :
Walker ( was DNP when on the Celtics )
Shawn Williams ( non-NBA player last year )
Roger Mason ( Spurs did not even want him as a 12th man )
Jared Jeffries ( released by the Rockets )
Anthony Carter ( averaged 13 minutes for the Nuggets )
Sheldon Williams ( under 8 minutes for the Nuggets )
Balkman ( DNP for the nuggets )
Turiaf ( hurt all the time on Warriors )

Now for the playoffs...
Billups OUT
Amare in Game 2 2nd half OUT/ Game 3 as good as OUT

Leaves Melo, Fields and douglas...

Both Douglas and Fields on another team would see so few minutes...


This is what we had to work with ..Give the coach some credit for making us competitive....but yes in the end the better experienced players will win...


Come on dont kid yourself.
 

KingofNy

Starter
You guys continue to just blame Dantonio....

We did not have the same starting 5 for a season.
We blew up our team at the tradeline.
We have players :
Walker ( was DNP when on the Celtics )
Shawn Williams ( non-NBA player last year )
Roger Mason ( Spurs did not even want him as a 12th man )
Jared Jeffries ( released by the Rockets )
Anthony Carter ( averaged 13 minutes for the Nuggets )
Sheldon Williams ( under 8 minutes for the Nuggets )
Balkman ( DNP for the nuggets )
Turiaf ( hurt all the time on Warriors )

Now for the playoffs...
Billups OUT
Amare in Game 2 2nd half OUT/ Game 3 as good as OUT

Leaves Melo, Fields and douglas...

Both Douglas and Fields on another team would see so few minutes...


This is what we had to work with ..Give the coach some credit for making us competitive....but yes in the end the better experienced players will win...


Come on dont kid yourself.

LOL @ U. Seriously? ahahahahha. Continuing to make excuses for Antoni is like shooting yourself in the foot...Twice.

Our coach is garbage no matter which way you spin it. The players do what they're told and run the plays the coach calls. We have no plays and the players (including our THREE stars) have NO confidence in our coach. Even the TV analysts continually call out Antoni's decisions, indecision's and questionable offensive and defensive sets/rotations. It's pretty sad when Chauncey Billups is doing a better job of coaching and he's just an injured player. I can't count how many times our players make mistakes and then he claps and slaps their hand on their way to the bench and not acknowledge they did anything wrong but then the camera cuts to Billups instructing them to fix their errors. Ugghh...lol

But go ahead keep making excuses for his lack of coaching. It is pretty comical. If for some god forsaken reason Antoni's still here next year we can pull this thread back up again after we get tossed from the first round and compare your new list of excuses to this one. Excuses are like hoes, they suck d***!
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
...We all know that our roster isn't perfect. We need help at the guard position very badly. We don't have interior defense. We don't have any rebounding.

It doesn't change the fact that Mike D'Antoni's rotations and substitutions make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I gave the man the benefit of the doubt when he put AR in the doghouse. Guess what happened? Oh wait, AR absolutely started BALLING when he got to Minnesota and Mike D didn't even bother to notice it.

D'Antoni is a good assistant coach who looks like a really good head coach when he has players who can make him look really good. He had Steve Nash to make him look good in Phoenix, he had Jason Kidd/Deron Williams/Chris Paul to make him look good for Team USA, but on the Knicks he doesn't have an athletic PG who can handle his "uptempo system" and shoot 45% from 3's all at the same time so he looks like an awful coach.

A good coach knows how to tailor his system to the roster he has. Pat Riley ran an uptempo system with the Showtime Lakers but was still successful with a drastically different style of play in New York.

I wasn't that supportive of Mike D'Antoni's hiring because I'm just not a fan of his type of basketball, but nonetheless I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see if he could make things work.

If he sticks around for another year he's going to have to work out of the half-court offense because that's where both Billups and Carmelo's strengths lie. If he can't do that, then we need to find a coach who can get the most out of the players he has, rather than pretend he's in some sort of fantasy world where his PG is much better than he actually is.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
LOL @ U. Seriously? ahahahahha. Continuing to make excuses for Antoni is like shooting yourself in the foot...Twice.

Our coach is garbage no matter which way you spin it. The players do what they're told and run the plays the coach calls. We have no plays and the players (including our THREE stars) have NO confidence in our coach. Even the TV analysts continually call out Antoni's decisions, indecision's and questionable offensive and defensive sets/rotations. It's pretty sad when Chauncey Billups is doing a better job of coaching and he's just an injured player. I can't count how many times our players make mistakes and then he claps and slaps their hand on their way to the bench and not acknowledge they did anything wrong but then the camera cuts to Billups instructing them to fix their errors. Ugghh...lol

But go ahead keep making excuses for his lack of coaching. It is pretty comical. If for some god forsaken reason Antoni's still here next year we can pull this thread back up again after we get tossed from the first round and compare your new list of excuses to this one. Excuses are like hoes, they suck d***!

Are you aware of how you look??

Continuing to ignore important factors that impinge on MDA's ability to have a positive oncourt result against a team like Boston makes you look like blind hater.
 
You guys continue to just blame Dantonio....

We did not have the same starting 5 for a season.
We blew up our team at the tradeline.
We have players :
Walker ( was DNP when on the Celtics )
Shawn Williams ( non-NBA player last year )
Roger Mason ( Spurs did not even want him as a 12th man )
Jared Jeffries ( released by the Rockets )
Anthony Carter ( averaged 13 minutes for the Nuggets )
Sheldon Williams ( under 8 minutes for the Nuggets )
Balkman ( DNP for the nuggets )
Turiaf ( hurt all the time on Warriors )

Now for the playoffs...
Billups OUT
Amare in Game 2 2nd half OUT/ Game 3 as good as OUT

Leaves Melo, Fields and douglas...

Both Douglas and Fields on another team would see so few minutes...


This is what we had to work with ..Give the coach some credit for making us competitive....but yes in the end the better experienced players will win...


Come on dont kid yourself.

OK even if I give you all the above, please tell me where were the adjustments? The Knicks lost all three games playing basically the same way. 95% of the game plan was away from the rim. After game one when we werent hitting OK fine. After game two when our shooters played like crap other than Melo its time to adjust. Wouldnt you agree?
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I think MDA has shown that he is a second rate coach with this series. Every single time the Knicks were in a situation to win, he was severely out coached by Doc Rivers. He was just undressed.

MDA's substitutions were poor, and he had the Knicks defend the same pick and roll play the same way each time. Play way too far off Rondo, let him penetrate, which causes the defense to collapse on him, leaving KG open for a mid-range, automatic J...

Just plain sad.

We need a coach who does more than just talk about D.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
I think MDA has shown that he is a second rate coach with this series. Every single time the Knicks were in a situation to win, he was severely out coached by Doc Rivers. He was just undressed.

MDA's substitutions were poor, and he had the Knicks defend the same pick and roll play the same way each time. Play way too far off Rondo, let him penetrate, which causes the defense to collapse on him, leaving KG open for a mid-range, automatic J...

Just plain sad.

We need a coach who does more than just talk about D.

Do realize how difficult it is to guard a good pick and roll?

Let me ask you something else.. How'd the Lakers guard the pick and roll against Paul and Co. tnite?? The Lakers play pretty good defense right?

You have to sag off of Rondo on pick and roll, otherwise he gets a layup. I'd rather the Celts get a KG 15 footer than give up the paint to Rondo in the half court. He gets enough forays into the paint in transition.

Add it's somewhat easier to win the end of game execution battles when you have 4 starters (each who are all stars) who know all each other intuitively and have championship forged/tested chemistry.
 

skisloper

Starter
OK even if I give you all the above, please tell me where were the adjustments? The Knicks lost all three games playing basically the same way. 95% of the game plan was away from the rim. After game one when we werent hitting OK fine. After game two when our shooters played like crap other than Melo its time to adjust. Wouldnt you agree?

Make no mistake I did not say I am satisfied with Dantonio. What I did say is look what he had to work with. Everybody thinks that we should have made adjustments...

BLIND HATERS....

We had no point guard for Game 3 and 4. Coaches fault ?
Amare could not move in Game 3 and slow at game 4 start.
Tony Douglas messed up the shoulder again.
Sheldon Williams sprains ankle in the last game...

DUDE with what we have to work with how many adjustments can he make when playing a Championship team with 4 all stars that have played together for 4 years.....Your are kidding yourself......

There is no coach on the league that would have shown more success....

should Phil Jackson be fired for not stopping Chris Paul ?
Van Gundy for Orlando failing.....
George Karl ?
Popovich should be gone as well..


I am not saying I belIEVE IN DANTONIO OR WANT HIM TO REMAIN COACH BUT I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT DUE TO The KEY INJURIES NO COACH WOULD HAVE DONE ANY BETTER...
 
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