There's No Defense For Mike D'Antoni.

ronoranina said:

You call it speculation but I call it knowing the game of basketball and what you can and can't get away w. That comment rung true on it's face right?

I hear all of you guys that disagree w the basic principles within the system.

I agree that you need certain players to make it work really well, which is a shortcoming in a sense but then again most coaches need and covet certain guys to run their stuff. I also agree that scoring from outside-in goes against basic fundamentals that are time tested. <This to me is indisputable.

However after having studied this system closely and seeing it work well over the years, I have to admit, inspite of the above, I'm a fan of it. I like it. I believe, firmly, that w the right execution, by the right players, it can work properly and be devastatingly effective.

Next, I don't know what all of the fuss is about. Remember - our only stated goal for the season was to make the playoffs. It's not like we were going to win a championship this year. I didn't see us getting upset like the Spurs. It wasn't perfect, but in my IMHO, this coach did the best he could w what he had, all year.

I'm all for giving MDA another shot.. I want to see what he can do w a full training camp w Melo, Amare and Co.

If we start the season w the same inconsistency on defense, or if the offense isn't clicking properly, I'll really start to question this coach. I also agree w kblack in that if Melo and Amare aren't on the same page w MDA, he needs to go. I'd also really, really like to see MDA get another assistant who can teach proper defense. It's clear no one on this staff can accomplish this.

Click to expand...

Wake up Ron!

And when Chauncey Billups comes out and says there is no perfect coach and happens to mention that Larry Brown - D'Antoni's polar opposite and Dolan's sworn enemy - is his all-time favorite, I think it's safe to assume that the veteran point guard isn't reading "Seven Seconds or Less" in his spare time.

Click to expand...

If you refuse to accept the truth, I can't help you.

If as you say you studied then you must have noticed:
1. The offense is tops the defensive is the worst

2. The approach goes against conventional wisdom

3. The players needed canot be relied upon to get for two major reasons: *they don't exist *D'Antoni's idea of talent are those who fit his flawed sytem- the same players who ranked 28th to 15th in the leaguse in defense

4. He had TONS OF BETTERPLAYERS IN PHX with no flux, and FAILED!!!!!!! IN THE SAME MANNER....FAILED!!!!


Please read above posts before rehashing the same tired, boring argument and lame excuses. For the last time your excuses don't explain why keeping D'Antoni is such a good idea. They don't.

ronoranina said:

You call it speculation but I call it knowing the game of basketball and what you can and can't get away w. That comment rung true on it's face right?

I hear all of you guys that disagree w the basic principles within the system.

I agree that you need certain players to make it work really well, which is a shortcoming in a sense but then again most coaches need and covet certain guys to run their stuff. I also agree that scoring from outside-in goes against basic fundamentals that are time tested. <This to me is indisputable.

However after having studied this system closely and seeing it work well over the years, I have to admit, inspite of the above, I'm a fan of it. I like it. I believe, firmly, that w the right execution, by the right players, it can work properly and be devastatingly effective.

Next, I don't know what all of the fuss is about. Remember - our only stated goal for the season was to make the playoffs. It's not like we were going to win a championship this year. I didn't see us getting upset like the Spurs. It wasn't perfect, but in my IMHO, this coach did the best he could w what he had, all year.

I'm all for giving MDA another shot.. I want to see what he can do w a full training camp w Melo, Amare and Co.

If we start the season w the same inconsistency on defense, or if the offense isn't clicking properly, I'll really start to question this coach. I also agree w kblack in that if Melo and Amare aren't on the same page w MDA, he needs to go. I'd also really, really like to see MDA get another assistant who can teach proper defense. It's clear no one on this staff can accomplish this.

Click to expand...

I would understand if MDA had won a championship or two already, but to imply that he'll only be successful if he has the "right players" for his "system" tells me that he will always maintain a very small margin for error. Because defense isn't highly stressed, his offense has to be clicking on all cylinders at all times to off-set the defensive liabilities.
　
For instance, if MDA were hired by a team 20 games into a season, chances are he would probably make the team worse until they traded for his type of players. A really good coach should be able to step into a situation and see why the pieces aren't working and make some adjustments. It may be motivation, putting players in different roles, changing the rotation etc...
　
He needs his type of players (that's fine) but that also means that he doesn't have the ability to understand an entire roster and adjust when needed. His fault is that he doesn't know any other way and he's been around basketball for way too long to not have the ability to adjust. Red brought up a good point about how the team started peaking a bit with Hughes (mostly because of his defensive awareness) but then all of a sudden decided to DNP-CD the guy. Anything other than his system looks foreign to him and therefore he can't see the value of it should it happen to actually work. MDA also DNP'd Carter when he showed how gritty he was on defense and he had the ability to play the PG role effectively. Once again, MDA went with his preference of "long range shooters" and sent Carter on the pine indefinitely. It wasn't until our elimination game a few days ago that MDA took another look at Carter and he played the same hard-nosed basketball from when we first acquired him (I wasn't surprised).
　
There's no need to focus on MDA having a stable roster and a full training camp with Amare and Melo. The fundamentals of his approach will still be the same and that's what us anti-MDA posters are aware of.

Red said:

Wake up Ron!



If you refuse to accept the truth, I can't help you.

If as you say you studied then you must have noticed:
1. The offense is tops the defensive is the worst

2. The approach goes against conventional wisdom

3. The players needed canot be relied upon to get for two major reasons: *they don't exist *D'Antoni's idea of talent are those who fit his flawed sytem- the same players who ranked 28th to 15th in the leaguse in defense

4. He had TONS OF BETTERPLAYERS IN PHX with no flux, and FAILED!!!!!!! IN THE SAME MANNER....FAILED!!!!


Please read above posts before rehashing the same tired, boring argument and lame excuses. For the last time your excuses don't explain why keeping D'Antoni is such a good idea. They don't.

Click to expand...

Didn't I just post that we need to bring in someone to direct the defense??? Isn't that acknowledging that we sucked basically. You know I'm aware of the statistics.

Listen, I understand you don't like this coach, his approach. But we have better players now and more time to make everything meld. You think I need to wake up, but I've acknowledged his flaws and offered solutions. Really it is you that needs to settle down. Can you acknowledge anything this coach has done well?? IMO he's proven he can get results for this organization. I think we are on the right path. We'll have to agree to disagree, respectfully I guess.

nyk_nyk said:

I would understand if MDA had won a championship or two already, but to imply that he'll only be successful if he has the "right players" for his "system" tells me that he will always maintain a very small margin for error. Because defense isn't highly stressed, his offense has to be clicking on all cylinders at all times to off-set the defensive liabilities.
　
For instance, if MDA were hired by a team 20 games into a season, chances are he would probably make the team worse until they traded for his type of players. A really good coach should be able to step into a situation and see why the pieces aren't working and make some adjustments. It may be motivation, putting players in different roles, changing the rotation etc...
　
He needs his type of players (that's fine) but that also means that he doesn't have the ability to understand an entire roster and adjust when needed. His fault is that he doesn't know any other way and he's been around basketball for way too long to not have the ability to adjust. Red brought up a good point about how the team started peaking a bit with Hughes (mostly because of his defensive awareness) but then all of a sudden decided to DNP-CD the guy. Anything other than his system looks foreign to him and therefore he can't see the value of it should it happen to actually work. MDA also DNP'd Carter when he showed how gritty he was on defense and he had the ability to play the PG role effectively. Once again, MDA went with his preference of "long range shooters" and sent Carter on the pine indefinitely. It wasn't until our elimination game a few days ago that MDA took another look at Carter and he played the same hard-nosed basketball from when we first acquired him (I wasn't surprised).
　
There's no need to focus on MDA having a stable roster and a full training camp with Amare and Melo. The fundamentals of his approach will still be the same and that's what us anti-MDA posters are aware of.

Click to expand...

Dido.

The same thing happened with Marbury and Robinson. If you can't get along fine, but who wants a coach who rather subvert the team due to his personal grudges?

And logic would dictate when he first came that was his way of gaining respect (making the star player conform and be humbled), because who wants to fire a coach with $24mil remaining? But that was then. With 1 yr left the tables have turned.

He put his personal feelings ABOVE THE TEAM!!!!! Same with Darko and Randolph! AR was DNP'D then went on to avg 20 & 10 for a stretch. Could they have at least helped?

And some support this? Subversion of our team by the coach and you support this? How?

REDUCE THE EXCUSE VS Refrain from the mundane.

Red said:

Throw aways?

I can't research right now, but do you recall the 8th seed's records in the East the past two seasons? I'd bet they were losing record teams if not close to.

Recall when we finally started using Larry Hughes and won a few straight and then he was Dnp'd-cd? How about all the other DNP-CD'S? Recall? If I werea betting man, i'd say Mike was purposely tanking games.

But then again we had no pick to tank for... so how do you explain that?

I love how some (not necessarily you) point to a "changing roster" as some sort of excuse... as if when he gets a stable roster those decisions won't be made.

Guess what? The trade dead-line COMES EVERY YEAR- FOR EVERY TEAM & EVERY COACH!!!!!!

THERE WILL always be the possibilities for player movement, and the fact that as a coach he has experienced this MANY times, that excuse about roster movement is garbage- hold no water- bupkis!!!

As if we can't analyze his abilities until such minute conditions exist. Please.

A healthy, stable (just won 7 in a row before the last 2 throw away games), team with a lead on the road, riding the double x2 dominate performance of Stat, neglected to get him the ball seven times and blew the most important game in a decade...

And you got nerve to give me an excuse? After as you say we endured two "throw away" years- you actually explain that without mentioning the coach? Please!

Every excuse has been debunked. For every player injury, flux, roster theory you offer, there are a myriad of examples of why that explains nothing as much as "he just isn't that good" does!


REDUCE THE EXCUSE!

Click to expand...

Never said he did a superlative job, never said "he was that good". Quite the opposite. I never said his doghouse mentality wasn't/isn't ridiculous, I'm just saying that if MD's winning percentage were higher from his first 2 seasons, it would be an infinitesimally small margin considering the roster he had. 4 or 5 more wins? 6? 7?

Whatever :shrug:

I have no interest in discussing anything D'Antoni, Knicks, or otherwise outside of this season and the following from here on out. It's pointless and disruptive to any topic regarding our future and its ticking clock.

I want MD gone - but not in a cult like fervour such as your own - and that want is based on what I saw (cringed at) this season.

Moving on.

nyk_nyk said:

I would understand if MDA had won a championship or two already, but to imply that he'll only be successful if he has the "right players" for his "system" tells me that he will always maintain a very small margin for error. Because defense isn't highly stressed, his offense has to be clicking on all cylinders at all times to off-set the defensive liabilities.
　
For instance, if MDA were hired by a team 20 games into a season, chances are he would probably make the team worse until they traded for his type of players. A really good coach should be able to step into a situation and see why the pieces aren't working and make some adjustments. It may be motivation, putting players in different roles, changing the rotation etc...
　
He needs his type of players (that's fine) but that also means that he doesn't have the ability to understand an entire roster and adjust when needed. His fault is that he doesn't know any other way and he's been around basketball for way too long to not have the ability to adjust. Red brought up a good point about how the team started peaking a bit with Hughes (mostly because of his defensive awareness) but then all of a sudden decided to DNP-CD the guy. Anything other than his system looks foreign to him and therefore he can't see the value of it should it happen to actually work. MDA also DNP'd Carter when he showed how gritty he was on defense and he had the ability to play the PG role effectively. Once again, MDA went with his preference of "long range shooters" and sent Carter on the pine indefinitely. It wasn't until our elimination game a few days ago that MDA took another look at Carter and he played the same hard-nosed basketball from when we first acquired him (I wasn't surprised).
　
There's no need to focus on MDA having a stable roster and a full training camp with Amare and Melo. The fundamentals of his approach will still be the same and that's what us anti-MDA posters are aware of.

Click to expand...

All of this is fair..

Lets see...

Doc Rivers before he got 4 all stars? Considered universally as one of the worst coaches in the NBA.

Doc Rivers after he got 4 all stars? Well I'm sure you know how this goes. He's now adored by everyone and the media drools all over him. Its funny how quickly everyone changes their minds.

Great players make coaches seem like geniuses. We had bit pieces that were thrown together with 2 all stars after half the season was already over.

Now I'm not saying Dantoni isn't without fault, but again.... I refuse to blame him for everything. He had a damn tough job and at the very least he was loyal to us through the bad times. I doubt changing coaches this last season would have changed us being ousted in the first round. After all.... we essentially got robbed by the refs in that first game.

Not playing AR and putting players in the doghouse seems horrible from our viewpoint, but we don't know how the locker room really is. You don't see our guys complaining when we got rid of AR or poison like Marbury. From all accounts, AR pretty much was demanding plays and time without putting in the work. Darko is a lazy and dumb player, Nate is having trouble getting minutes, and Marbury is being..... Marbury in China. I actually approve of not giving in to a player's demands when they don't show they deserve it. Hell... Shawne Williams pretty much demonstrated that you can turn into a major player even after he didn't log any minutes in the beginning of the year.

That said... I think there is a better coach who is available right now in Adelman and we should pursue him. You should always get the best available and right now Adelman is the best. Especially for a system with a strong PF and wingman. Think Sacramento with Amare replacing Webber. I hope we as fans at least give Dantoni some love if he comes back with another team. After all, no one can argue that he showed loyalty and hard work with our team.

iJoe said:

Lets see...

Doc Rivers before he got 4 all stars? Considered universally as one of the worst coaches in the NBA.

Doc Rivers after he got 4 all stars? Well I'm sure you know how this goes. He's now adored by everyone and the media drools all over him. Its funny how quickly everyone changes their minds.

Great players make coaches seem like geniuses. We had bit pieces that were thrown together with 2 all stars after half the season was already over.

Now I'm not saying Dantoni isn't without fault, but again.... I refuse to blame him for everything. He had a damn tough job and at the very least he was loyal to us through the bad times. I doubt changing coaches this last season would have changed us being ousted in the first round. After all.... we essentially got robbed by the refs in that first game.

Not playing AR and putting players in the doghouse seems horrible from our viewpoint, but we don't know how the locker room really is. You don't see our guys complaining when we got rid of AR or poison like Marbury. From all accounts, AR pretty much was demanding plays and time without putting in the work. Darko is a lazy and dumb player, Nate is having trouble getting minutes, and Marbury is being..... Marbury in China. I actually approve of not giving in to a player's demands when they don't show they deserve it. Hell... Shawne Williams pretty much demonstrated that you can turn into a major player even after he didn't log any minutes in the beginning of the year.

That said... I think there is a better coach who is available right now in Adelman and we should pursue him. You should always get the best available and right now Adelman is the best. Especially for a system with a strong PF and wingman. Think Sacramento with Amare replacing Webber. I hope we as fans at least give Dantoni some love if he comes back with another team. After all, no one can argue that he showed loyalty and hard work with our team.

Click to expand...

Ummm....

Doc Rivers was Coach of The Year in Orlando
Has shown an ability to change and adapt
Had no issues with having a defensive assistant at his side

Roster allstars roster allstars roster allstars.... blah blah blah

Let's see...

So a double digit lead was blown AFTER COACH neglected to get Amar'e (AN ALLSTAR) the ball seven straight possessions down the stretch.

While Melo (Another ALLSTAR) And Billups (A FORMER ALLSTAR) were perfecly healthy and STAT was eating Garnets lunch.

Hummmmmm..... Allstars or Poor Coaching?

Tell the truth....

Red said:

Ummm....

Doc Rivers was Coach of The Year in Orlando
Has shown an ability to change and adapt
Had no issues with having a defensive assistant at his side

Roster allstars roster allstars roster allstars.... blah blah blah

Let's see...

Click to expand...

From before Doc got the Big 3 + Rondo:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060112

KBlack25 said:

From before Doc got the Big 3 + Rondo:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060112

Click to expand...

Lol.. None of these coaches really know what they're doing..

Some, a select few, just know a little more how not to screw up so much. But they all make mistakes.

The more great players you have the less you look like a know- nothing coach.

Great players Red. It's about having more of them or better ones than the other idiot coach you're up against.

Red said:

Thank you Stephen.

I won't stop until I see him gone. Be as ignorant as you want. Be as permitting as you'd like. I could care less.


F*ck every excuse and reason you formulate...

You can never convince me different of what my eye's see, and my mind analyzes.

As Tom Cruise said in A few Good Men...

Don't try and tell me the law. If there's anything I know, I know the law.

And I know Basketball.

Click to expand...

Co-sign. Antoni's going to get put in a ziplock bag and thrown in a dumpster.

Red said:

Many people will also point to Carmelo?s refusal to foul Delonte West on the ensuing Celtics possession following Jeffries? mishap. Once again, let?s be fair: This is two-sided. Melo had to know he needed to commit that foul -- that is just basketball 101. The 9th graders I coach know to make that foul. But then again, why was he even in the game to begin with?

Anthony had five fouls. He shouldn?t have been anywhere guarding the backcourt. That responsibility should have gone to someone else.

Click to expand...

This all points to a general & alarming pattern of a terrible lack of attention to detail by this head coach at the end of games. For him not to have realized his star player had 5 fouls & not having someone else guard the backcourt is inexcusable, particularly in a playoff situation.

STAT1 said:

This all points to a general & alarming pattern of a terrible lack of attention to detail by this head coach at the end of games. For him not to have realized his star player had 5 fouls & not having someone else guard the backcourt is inexcusable, particularly in a playoff situation.

Click to expand...

Yup.

He did that because he had an incomplete roster, with flux, and injuries...:thumbsup:

Smh...

How anyone can support this going forward is beyond me. Do you not expect to see more of the same?

Beyond the fact that Dantoni either refuses or is incapable of adjusting to the players he has, which should be an acknowledged fact by now...

I have a simple test: With the players we had this year, I don't believe Dantoni or his system had any impact on our .500ish record above what any other coach would have. Dantoni as a coach did not make us better. Any coach should have been able to finish about 42-40.

A good coach, who has the adaptability to adjust and play to the strengths and weaknesses of the roster, in my opinion, would have been able to improve on our record.

Obviously, this can not be objectively proved. But ask yourselves two questions: 1) With the players we had this year, shouldn't and couldn't virtually any NBA-caliber head coach achieved a 42-40 record? 2) If so, why not hire one that has the flexibility to adjust to the roster, and theoretically maximize the players' impact?

Dantoni is inflexible in his system and philosophy, his rigid style does not maximize the talent of the roster, and I argue that almost any other NBA-caliber coach could do better.

tiger0330 said:

Yeah, he does have the inside track with the players and it was interesting to hear there is some dissension on the team. Wonder who that unnamed player was who said "he's never seen anything like this before".

I think you're right Paul, D'Antoni gets to coach another year but he will be on a short leash. He's a losing streak and a MSG chant of "fire D'Antoni" away from losing his job, his shortcomings are pretty obvious.

Click to expand...

I know Mike D will get another chance and honestly I feel like he has been given a break for years.

Any other coach would have been fired a while ago but he had his excuses to get him by and frankly I feel that he is still the Knicks coach because Donnie Walsh didn't want to fire him before his contract ended which would have made him look bad which would have him not come back for the extension. So you have to look at it many ways to realize that Mike D has gotten a pass and it's really not fair, especially when you are in NY.

He has one more shot.

He has a training camp and off season with Amare, Anthony, and Billups...I expect more wins but I think the same result will happen.

Clyde & The Pearl said:

Fellas this is the true Test:

Could MOA take Boston or Chicago and win as many games? Highly unlikely.

Could Thibs or Rivers do better than MOA did with the Knicks? MOST DEFINITELY.

Click to expand...

Tried to give some rep points, but I couldn't. I don't think anyone on this board would disagree with you.

Clyde & The Pearl said:

Fellas this is the true Test:

Could MOA take Boston or Chicago and win as many games? Highly unlikely.

Could Thibs or Rivers do better than MOA did with the Knicks? MOST DEFINITELY.

Click to expand...

I don't get the fascination with Doc Rivers...I honestly don't think he's a good coach, and he was on the verge of being fired until he got Tom Thibodeau (who I think is a good coach) and his 3 other all-stars.

Red said:

Yup.

He did that because he had an incomplete roster, with flux, and injuries...:thumbsup:

Smh...

How anyone can support this going forward is beyond me. Do you not expect to see more of the same?

Click to expand...

I can't even count how many times this coach failed to make the most obvious of decisions in crunchtime of games, particularly in the closing seconds. Being ahead by 3 & not fouling the opposing player with 2 or 3 seconds left in the game to get them to the foul line for instance. This happened at least twice this season. This coach is simply way too stubborn, he has no interest in trying to change his approach to adjust to game situations. He has only 1 mindset that he's capable of projecting during games, & that is to push the ball uptempo & launch up as many shots as you possibly can.

KBlack25 said:

I don't get the fascination with Doc Rivers...I honestly don't think he's a good coach, and he was on the verge of being fired until he got Tom Thibodeau (who I think is a good coach) and his 3 other all-stars.

Click to expand...

Thibbs was there the year before they got their "big 3," and if that's the logic we're using....MDA got a top 3 PF, and a top 3 SF, in their primes and dominant...and we had a losing streak of what, 6 or 7 games, and went 14-14 in the time span they were teammates.

The Celtics started out like 20-3 in their chip season.

I won't even get into the details about their defense masking any growing pains because like that saying goes "If I score I might win, but if they don't score I can't lose" I'll leave that alone, and I'll just say this:

Your logic = Doc Rivers overrated because KG, Pierce, and Allen were the reason for that team's success.

So by that definition what does that say about Mike?