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Thread: Knicks will Keep Billups. Option picked up.

  1. #16
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    .................................................. ........

    Exactly..

    It's possible to get CP3 folks.

  2. #17
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    I thought he would be gone even though I like Billups. Crazy's thread about the pro's and cons of keeping him or buying him out really was slanted towards keeping him.

  3. #18
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    I like the move. Chauncey Billups is good, but he needs to get his minutes cut down to 28-30 mpg. He's too old to be playing 35+ minutes.

  4. #19
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Blumatic
    I was thinking the exact same thing. On bouth points.

    Why cantthe NBA help us. The Lakers put Jerry West incharge of the Grizzlies thus facilitating the Gasol trade. Kevin Mchale helped out his old team and buddy Danny Ainge to get Kevin Garnett to Boston.

    Give us Chris Paul. They should sign him to a 6 year 100 million dollar deal then waive him. Then we can just give him the veteran minimum. (tongue in cheek).
    I actually was thinking about this. David Stern is an NY guy and grew up a Knicks fan, also it was rumored that he fixed the 1985 draft so that we can draft Ewing. Why wouldn't he want one his richest franchises to do well? He can gain a ****load of money from all the New Yorkers watching us in the Finals.

  5. #20
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    If we ride out the year w Billups and his contract comes off, then we shed a few other expiring contracts how would CP3 be making "half" of what Amare and Melo would making respectively??

    Once we get CP3 dudes'll be lining up to sign for the vet minimum to play for a team that has a legit shot at a title.
    IF we are able to trade Balkman for an expiring contract, and IF we decide to not keep Douglas, and IF we trade our 1st round pick this year for an expiring contract we will be at $44.15 mil in team salary with only 2 players on the roster.

    Please provide details how we can sign CP3.

    Remember, Bosh took $14.5 mil, Lebron took $14.5 mil and Wade took $14 mil. Their 3 salaries combined are only $3 mil less than Melo and Amare's 2 salaries combined. Do the math.

    People also need to realize that N.O. will likely follow Denver and trade him before he becomes a free agent.

    Please provide details of a realistic trade for us to acquire CP3. Keep in mind it cost us half our roster to get Melo when we were the only team Melo wanted.

  6. #21
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    IF we are able to trade Balkman for an expiring contract, and IF we decide to not keep Douglas, and IF we trade our 1st round pick this year for an expiring contract we will be at $44.15 mil in team salary with only 2 players on the roster.

    Please provide details how we can sign CP3.

    Remember, Bosh took $14.5 mil, Lebron took $14.5 mil and Wade took $14 mil. Their 3 salaries combined are only $3 mil less than Melo and Amare's 2 salaries combined. Do the math.

    People also need to realize that N.O. will likely follow Denver and trade him before he becomes a free agent.

    Please provide details of a realistic trade for us to acquire CP3. Keep in mind it cost us half our roster to get Melo when we were the only team Melo wanted.
    In hindsight, amare is probably overpaid by about 10-12 million. your right we would have to let everyone not named Melo and Amare walk to get a CP3 deal done within the cap. Our two star players make too much money folks and even if CP3 took less money (not much less) we'd barely have enough money to fill the roster with quality players.

    I think we may be asking too much to have 3 superstars on one team. Its not even necessary IMO and I think the new CBA will prevent that from happening anyway. I'd rather have a balanced roster.

  7. #22
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    Default Billups

    I surmise that Donnie came to the conclusion that even if we bought Billups out, we would not have had enough cap space or assets for a defensive big, such as D. Jordan or M. Gasol or a point guard with Chauncey's talents. If the MLE exception remains in a new CBA, it will help next year, but we could not make it more than a one year contract without eliminating any meager chance we would have for CP3. But Billups is a true professional and still a very good point guard.

    I assume we want to sign Shawne Williams and I would expect him to look for more than a one year deal. There are trade possibilities with Fields, Douglas and Turiaf, but I have a feeling we will add J. Jordan and our 1st round pick and otherwise have about the same team we had at the end of this season. As I have indicated in at least one other post, I cannot see us getting CP3 when he becomes. available. As LJ4ptPlay notes, we just do not have either space or assets going forward.

    As for a new CBA, although I do not expect a cap that will provide more room than the current cap, there are likely to be several adjustments that will prevent teams from automatically going over the cap with current contracts. For example, under the current CBA, a veteran player such as CP3 can not be paid more than 30% of the cap. If the cap goes down but the percentage for a max salary remains the same, then perhaps current contracts will be adjusted -- for cap purposes, but without changing amounts due the players -- so that they count as if they were equal to the lower max contracts under a new CBA. This gets complicated because max contracts given in one year are permitted under the current CBA to increase at rates of up to 10.5% of the first year's contract for each of the subsequent contract years. Thus by 2014/15 Amare' and Melo will be making more than $23M each.

    Donnie may be expecting a new CBA that will ot kill our future.

  8. #23
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Smile You asked for it..

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    IF we are able to trade Balkman for an expiring contract, and IF we decide to not keep Douglas, and IF we trade our 1st round pick this year for an expiring contract we will be at $44.15 mil in team salary with only 2 players on the roster.

    Please provide details how we can sign CP3.

    Remember, Bosh took $14.5 mil, Lebron took $14.5 mil and Wade took $14 mil. Their 3 salaries combined are only $3 mil less than Melo and Amare's 2 salaries combined. Do the math.

    People also need to realize that N.O. will likely follow Denver and trade him before he becomes a free agent.

    Please provide details of a realistic trade for us to acquire CP3. Keep in mind it cost us half our roster to get Melo when we were the only team Melo wanted.
    LJ + oldtimer,

    I respect the both of you guys and your knowledge of the CBA, but I don't think your looking at this situation logically based on past and current events.

    Let us remember Paul will control his destiny similarly to the way we saw Melo operate this season, weaseling and working his way to our squad. Let us also remember CP3 has the same people managing him.

    Lets say the NOH front office wants to trade him to another team because what we'd have to offer isn't enough. Well Paul can simply say he won't sign a long term deal with anyone else the way Melo did. That should prevent NOH from being able to find a team that's willing to accept him as a rental. Remember they'd have to give up pieces to get him for only a portion of a season. No team worth their salt would do this IMO. So..... even if our deal isn't enough, NOH will still either have to take what we offer, or lose him as FA. And there will be no CBA to worry about in the summer 2012, no reason for Paul or Donnie not to wait if that's what's needed.

    If they let him become a FA we will have the resources to sign him. How? Because Donnie said so. I trust Donnie.. You 2 should too by now.

    Read up:

    Walsh says Knicks have salary-cap room in 2012
    Knicks Blog
    Berman on Twitter
    By MARC BERMAN
    Last Updated: 11:22 AM, February 23, 2011
    Posted: 2:50 AM, February 23, 2011


    More Print
    Knicks team president Donnie Walsh said yesterday the team will have significant 2012 salary-cap space to potentially sign a third star player.
    Walsh will be correct, unless a new NBA collective bargaining agreement foils the Knicks’ plan of adding point guard Chris Paul or Deron Williams to the Carmelo Anthony/Amar’e Stoudemire show.
    Walsh said Tuesday’s 12-player blockbuster trade with the Nuggets gives the Knicks flexibility heading into the 2012 season.
    “We retained room for the next summer, which is the summer we wanted to retain the room for,” Walsh said.

    Stoudemire, Anthony and Renaldo Balkman ($1.5 million) are signed for 2012. But the new labor agreement could put a franchise tag on stars to restrict movement to players such as Paul. Plus, the owners’ recent proposal called for a salary cap of $45 million.
    Walsh, asked if the Knicks will have enough room for a star in 2012, said, “If we choose to. You can divide it up and get two players. We’ll have cap room. No matter what happens, we’ll have cap room.”
    NBA commissioner David Stern’s doomsday scenario would leave the Knicks $5 million under. But Walsh said if that happens “everybody’s going to have to go down, and $5 million could be the biggest in the league.”
    According to a labor source, Knicks owner James Dolan is the most ardent supporter of a larger, softer cap — now more than ever.
    *
    Walsh said he will try to add a center to the decimated roster after the loss of Timofey Mozgov, either by trade or signing. Rumors had ex-Knick Jared Jeffries potentially being waived by Houston, but a league source said he likely will be traded — not to the Knicks.
    They also have former Knicks Marcus Camby and Earl Barron, who is a free agent, on their radar. They would have to cut a player to open a roster spot for Barron — likely Balkman.
    D’Antoni also raved about their 2010 second-round pick, Jerome Jordan, who is playing in Europe, saying he is destined for the club next season.
    Of the new filler players, D’Antoni said he sees forward Shelden Williams and point guard Anthony Carter having a chance for the rotation.


    Ok guys..? Barring a major set-back re: the new CBA, which I really don't see happening, we will be positioned to get a Paul. I see the league going to a hard cap of around 70 million. David Stern is not going to allow teams to be hand cuffed out of flexibility going forward IMO.

    This is a bleacher report (so take it w a grain of salt) article I thought was pretty interesting.


    With the sweep of the New York Knicks by the Boston Celtics in the first round of the playoffs, many fans are wondering: What should the team do next?

    Donnie Walsh has done a very good job at clearing out cap space and getting two top-15 players on the team in Amar'e Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony.

    Any fan who saw Amar'e in Game 1 and Carmelo in Game 2 knows that these two players are special talents. The only real issue with this pairing is their long-term health.

    The Knicks now go into the offseason with three major questions. First, do they keep Chauncey Billups? Second, can they improve the shooting guard and center positions? And third, should they keep Mike D'Antoni as coach?

    The Knicks can justifiably be proud that the team made the playoffs and that New York is now a place where free agents will want to play.

    Stoudemire showed real leadership skills all season long, particularly in Game 4 against the Celtics when he produced a double-double while barely able to move up and down the court. As long as Amar'e is healthy, the Knicks will be a tough out in the playoffs.

    The long-term vision of the Knicks was established at Carmelo's wedding, when Chris Paul made a toast that Amar'e, Carmelo and himself should join forces in New York to create their own Big Three team.

    So far, the Knicks are on a path to set that scenario up.

    The Knicks have only two contracts of significance on the roster heading into the 2012 offseason: Amar'e and Carmelo.

    That means that as long as the new collective bargaining agreement does not change the cap number too much, Chris Paul can join the Knicks and still get a large contract.

    If Paul joins the roster, the Knicks will have a star point guard, wing scorer and post player. In light of how much trouble Chris Paul is giving the Lakers right now without David West, he is proving that he is an elite player.


    Which brings us to Chauncey Billups. Chauncey is a very good player who will probably become a great coach one day. He is scheduled to make $14.3 million next year if the Knicks do not waive him by April 30.

    The Knicks should keep him.

    Without Billups at the point guard position, the team suffered in the playoffs. With Billups, the Knicks would have likely won at least one or two games .

    Letting Billups start the season with the team will greatly enhance the team, and should put them on a path where they can contend for the No. 4 seed in the East.

    There is another reason to keep him: If Chris Paul wants out of New Orleans early, Chauncey's contract will make that trade easier.


    The next question is, how should the Knicks fill the shooting guard and center positions? Landry Fields and Ronny Turiaf will return next year. Turiaf is best suited for a backup role and the rookie Fields disappeared during the last two months.

    The good news is that Fields should get better. Many rookies do poorly in the second half as their bodies are not used to the length of the season. However, Fields may also be better suited as a backup.

    The Knicks also have Bill Walker, who can play both the shooting guard and small forward positions. Ideally, Walker would improve his ball-handling skills and supplant Fields.

    If not, then the best player for the two position may be Toney Douglas. Douglas is a scorer in a point guard's body. Chauncey Billups, however, is big for a point guard and capable of defending big guards with his strength.

    The reality is that the Knicks need their other guard to be able to hit open jump shots, play good defense and make good entry passes into the post.

    The center position is more of a priority. Turiaf gets injured when he plays too many minutes, and he is more of a power forward than center in the NBA.

    However, the Knicks do have an inexpensive option for next year in Jerome Jordan.

    Jordan is a true seven-foot center with good athleticism. When he played for the Knicks' summer league team, he showed good skills on offense and the ability to block shots.

    However, he needed to improve his strength and game experience, prompting the Knicks to arrange for him to play this year in Serbia. Now the Knicks can bring him back with the chance to start at a minimum salary.

    He would only need to be a big body next year, with the hope that he could develop into a true rotation player.

    The Knicks actually have their own draft pick this year which should be 17th overall. At that position, the Knicks should have an opportunity to draft one of the Morris brothers from Kansas.

    Both are true post players who can improve the Knicks' depth up front. Both are athletic who should be immediate rotation players.

    The Knicks should also keep Derrick Brown, the small forward the Knicks claimed on waivers from Charlotte. He showed superior athleticism and a decent enough jump shot that he should be given the chance to be Carmelo's backup next year.

    If Shawne Williams wants to come back on a minimum salary contract, then he would be worth re-signing as well.

    Shelden Williams should be allowed to sign elsewhere. He is too slow to get major minutes for D'Antoni and undersized for a center as well.

    Anthony Carter should be brought back to be the backup point guard to Billups. Carter is a natural point guard and an excellent defender.

    So far, it sounds like mostly the same team that just got swept. The reason is that the Knicks do not want any contracts that could interfere with their chance to sign Chris Paul.

    So, the Knicks will need to find a cheap free-agent center who can rebound and is athletic enough to play for D'Antoni. There is one good candidate for the job.

    Josh McRoberts is a 6'10", 240-pound power forward on the Indiana Pacers. He backs up both Tyler Hansbrough and Roy Hibbert. He will be a free agent and he is cheap. He should be the top free-agent target for the Knicks to fill the center role.

    McRoberts averaged 7.4 points and 5.3 rebounds in 22 minutes per game this year. He shot 54.7 percent from the field and was 23 of 60 (38.3 percent) from three-point range.

    Because he will likely never get a chance to start in Indiana, the Knicks would have a chance to get him to New York with the opportunity to win the starting center job.

    He has shown good rebounding and shot-blocking instincts in the NBA. While he would have trouble guarding the elite centers, he is capable of providing solid defense against everyone else. And, he does not need the ball to get his points. He would be an ideal role player for the Knicks for next year.

    The final question is whether or not the Knicks should keep Mike D'Antoni as the head coach.

    Unless Phil Jackson or Doc Rivers are going to replace him, then the answer is yes. He is a good coach who deserves to have a full season of Carmelo and Amar'e to see if he can get the Knicks to the next level.

    With a full year to develop chemistry on offense, the Knicks should be able to win a round next year.

    The reality is that Doc Rivers is likely to take next year off to watch his son play basketball at Duke. After that, it is anticipated that he will want to return to the NBA.

    The Knicks were once his home as a player and would be a great fit for his return to coaching in 2012.

    So, for the long-term health of the Knicks, they should keep both Chauncey Billups and Mike D'Antoni for the 2011-2012 season and only do minor tinkering with the roster this offseason.



    I know the tendency around here is to be pessimistic, but I am an optimist and I tend to look at things logically. That said, IT IS TOTALLY WITHIN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY THAT WE CAN ACQUIRE PAUL, via trade or signing.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Apr 27, 2011 at 19:55.

  9. #24
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    Was gonna ask that question... If Stern decides to go to a hard cap, wont we actually be in better position to sign CP3 or any other max player? The line would jump up with no room above. If he stays with a soft cap, we may have to get creative with the numbers or we are up a creek.

    Also, has anyone considered the possibility of Melo and Amare restructuring their current contracts, similar to the compromise Miami did, to bring in CP3? Not sure if this even possible, but they both seem committed to winning more than making $$.... this will also be a huge PR move and statues would be erected all over the city.

    Just a thought, feel free to correct me if I am way off base.

  10. #25
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheNYdude
    Was gonna ask that question... If Stern decides to go to a hard cap, wont we actually be in better position to sign CP3 or any other max player? The line would jump up with no room above. If he stays with a soft cap, we may have to get creative with the numbers or we are up a creek.

    Also, has anyone considered the possibility of Melo and Amare restructuring their current contracts, similar to the compromise Miami did, to bring in CP3? Not sure if this even possible, but they both seem committed to winning more than making $$.... this will also be a huge PR move and statues would be erected all over the city.

    Just a thought, feel free to correct me if I am way off base.
    I've considered all of this. I've been posting the idea there's a possiblity Melo and Amare might restructure there deals for a while now. Seems like not many on the board think it can happen.. Some think it's ludicrous (Red comes to mind). And yes.., if we get hard cap we'll be in a MUCH better position to sign CP3.

  11. #26
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Thumbs down A regular genius

    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I've considered all of this. I've been posting the idea there's a possiblity Melo and Amare might restructure there deals for a while now. Seems like not many on the board think it can happen.. Some think it's ludicrous (Red comes to mind). And yes.., if we get hard cap we'll be in a MUCH better position to sign CP3.
    Got it all figured out hey?


    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I've considered all of this
    restructure
    (Red comes to mind)
    WORD?



  12. #27
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Melo and STAT can't restructure their deals to increase cap space. They would have had to take "less" money up front (STAT as an FA, and Melo a non-max extension.)

    From what I understand, NBA contracts can not be restructured downward. That only works in the NFL where guaranteed money vs overall contract value comes into play for the athlete redoing his deal. NBA players don't have that worry, and it doesn't seem like the NBA-PA allows it.

    Edit:


    53. Can existing contracts be renegotiated?

    A contract for four or more seasons can be renegotiated after the third anniversary of its signing, extension, or renegotiation that increased any season's salary by more than 8%. Contracts for fewer than four seasons cannot be renegotiated. A contract cannot be renegotiated between March 1 and June 30 of any year. Only teams under the cap can renegotiate a contract, and the salary in the then-current season can be increased only to the extent that the team has room under the cap. Raises in subsequent years are limited to 10.5% of the salary in the first renegotiated season. The renegotiation may not contain a signing bonus. Contracts cannot be renegotiated downward (players can't take a "pay cut" in order to create salary cap room for the team) or to contain fewer seasons.

    Again, a team over the salary cap cannot renegotiate a contract. An interesting case of this was Shawn Kemp with the Sonics. Kemp, who was unhappy with his contract and wanted to renegotiate, could not get a larger contract from the Sonics because they were over the cap. Kemp forced a trade to Cleveland, who was far enough under the cap at the time to give him the large contract he wanted. Kemp's contract was renegotiated soon after the trade.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Last edited by nuckles2k2; Apr 27, 2011 at 20:27.

  13. #28
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Got it all figured out hey?



    WORD?


    lol...

    Awwhhh.. You're mad. How unfortunate.

    Notice the mysterious absence of a substantive rubuttal.

    It's all good though..

    And I said I'd considered this stuff. I didn't say I had it all figured, especially this CBA nonsense. It's not really my strength at all.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Apr 27, 2011 at 20:46.

  14. #29
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
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    This was the right move. There are no better PG options available this summer & both our star players admire & respect Chauncey already. He is the defacto leader on this team & he's only been here 2 months, that just tells you how much this guy has everyone's ear & respect in the lockerroom. Plus this keeps the Knicks in solid standing if CP3 should ever decide he wants to be a Knick in 2012.

  15. #30
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    14+ mil for a 35 year old score first PG who can't stay on the court? ehhh. I understand this move if and only if we can trade his expiring for a star.

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