Mike forced to conform. Adding DEFENSIVE asst.

KBlack25

Starter
What I'm trying to say is that some people seem to be "hedging" their opinions:

They have certain feelings about certain personnel and will not be satisfied until he leaves, and perhaps commits suicide.

However, they choose to instead couch their opinions, saying if "MDA did X, I would feel better about it", MDA does X, and then they say X isn't enough b/c he didn't do Y or Z (which seemingly come out of no where).

It's obvious what is happening here, at least in my eyes: People feel in an extreme about a guy, but don't own it. If you feel that there will be no good achieved until he quits - then OWN it. Don't say "Well it will be better if he does X, it will be much better if he does Y..." because that's bullshit and not being real with your opinion.

I frequently disagree with a poster like abcd, but at least he has stayed consistent in his opinion and doesn't try and fake being more moderate overall...Certain posters feel the way abcd does, but decide to hide it by couching their opinions by making seemingly reasonable demands that will not appease them.

The same thing happened earlier, when MDA made some defensive adjustments and for a time we looked like a team that was just playing a lot better team defense overall - people who previously complained like crazy that MDA didn't adjust were STILL upset when he did adjust b/c he "didn't do it voluntarily" - it's clear to me, and should be clear to you, that there are some people on here fronting like crazy...they want MDA gone at all costs, that's fine. But don't then sit here that you need MDA to do X, Y, and Z when what you are really asking is for him to leave, even if he does X, Y and Z.
 
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smokes

Huge Member
Can't we just make MDA defensive assistant, give him a no show paycheck and get a real head coach who can coach both sides of the ball?
 

KingofNy

Starter
I think there's a difference between the people who were satisfied with Mike's offense but said that he needed a defensive assistant, and then those who were unsatisfied with Mike's system, lack of accountability, mismanagement, and lack of adjustments based on what was presented in front of him (put on full display in our loss at home to the Pacers on a Friday, and then a loss to the same team, in the same fashion, worked over by the same 2 players, 2 days later on Sunday.)

Those who are box score watchers and living "retweeters" of what they see and hear in newspapers, ESPN, and internet forums might say "hey, a defensive assistant and a center will solve all of our problems" then there are those who are wondering why an NBA coach can't properly utilize timeouts late in a game, or even draw up a play inside the 3 point line when coming out of a timeout and going into a critical late game possession. Hell, he shouldn't even have to draw one up...those plays should be worked on ad nauseum and installed, and be able to be referred to should that situation come up. The drawing it up should be a refreshing of the memory...but for some reason, our Knicks look just as lost after a timeout as they did before the timeout and the execution is piss poor...on a consistent basis.

I dunno how a defensive assistant is gonna solve that...but ok I guess. My stance on this has never changed. MDA is not the right guy for the job. Personally I don't understand how it's going to work. His philosophy is literally to create extra possessions within the game and use those possessions to outscore the opponent...but good defense starts with limiting your opponents' possessions. I want an entire coaching staff that's on the same page, and my preference is a game built around defense, not offense. It's not enough to just throw a defensive assistant on a team and say "make this defense better." This is not football where separate units are used for the different stages of the game. Our offense has to go hand in hand with our defense. Based on what MDA has shown thus far (not wins and losses, this has nothing to do with records and everything to do with philosophies and tendencies on the sidelines) he doesn't seem to be that guy.

I'd rather try to find someone who's already in that mold and see if he works as opposed to hoping that a guy who won 2 Italian League Titles with this style and philosophy will change it to accommodate his newly acquired defensive assistant.

Great Post! :agreed: I couldn't of said it better...
 

abcd

KnicksonLIN.com
I'm not buying it. Antoni is still the head coach, so he's going to have the final say. I strongly doubt that he will incorportate defense into his philosophy. He hasn't done it in 8 years of coaching the Suns and Knicks. Why would he start now?

This whole thing is lame. I want Antoni off the team. This guy is arrogant and is not going to listen to any constructive criticism.
 

p0nder

Starter
I feel that on the offensive end, nothing is going to change. We are still going to be playing for extra possessions, throwing up the first open look and trying to get those second chance opportunities. I know that it is not how a lot of people like to see the game played, but it has been proven to score a lot of points, and with the right roster can be very effective. And its MDA so no, nothing is going to change here.


On the defensive end I expect this new D Coach to hold players accountable. I think that will be his main job. Like the Vice Principal of the school he will be the one that is hated by the players for chewing them out. He will act as the buffer between MDA and his players. MDA wants to keep everyone happy and feel that these superstar players are at their best when they are enjoying themselves and comfortable with him. The D coach will set assignments on the defensive end, reccomend good time to switch frm M2M to zone, and be consulted on plays like defending the inbound plays, late game situations and also help with defensive minded clock management.

I think that whomever we get is going to be a HUGE upgrade to Dan D'antoni and will bring a lot of attitude on the defensive end. IF we can get Melo and STAT to buy into the defensive scheme/philosophy as much as they bought into the offensive end f MDA's approach then we will have a very formidible team on our hands.
 

KBlack25

Starter
I'm not buying it. Antoni is still the head coach, so he's going to have the final say. I strongly doubt that he will incorportate defense into his philosophy. He hasn't done it in 8 years of coaching the Suns and Knicks. Why would he start now?

This whole thing is lame. I want Antoni off the team. This guy is arrogant and is not going to listen to any constructive criticism.

To answer the question as to why he would start now:

Perhaps that's the only way he's going to keep his job...
 

STAT1

Starter
I don't think a defensive assistant is going to change the fact that this coach still makes some of the most headscratching decisions I've ever seen over the course of a game. It's a much needed improvement strategically over what we've had to deal with up til now in terms of making defensive adjustments, but when it's all said & done I still don't feel this head coach is the right man to lead us to a championship. I find his system is highly flawed being based on taking & making a high volume of 3 point shots, a low percentage gamble of a strategy unless you're capable of making stops on the other end of the floor. But it seems we'll all have to accept the fact that MDA will be here for another season at the very least, so whatever we can do to help this team win more games, we need to be willing to do. If it's gonna take bringing in a defensive specialist coach to get these guys playing better then I'm 100% in support of it.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I don't think a defensive assistant is going to change the fact that this coach still makes some of the most headscratching decisions I've ever seen over the course of a game. It's a much needed improvement strategically over what we've had to deal with up til now in terms of making defensive adjustments, but when it's all said & done I still don't feel this head coach is the right man to lead us to a championship. I find his system is highly flawed being based on taking & making a high volume of 3 point shots, a low percentage gamble of a strategy unless you're capable of making stops on the other end of the floor. But it seems we'll all have to accept the fact that MDA will be here for another season at the very least, so whatever we can do to help this team win more games, we need to be willing to do. If it's gonna take bringing in a defensive specialist coach to get these guys playing better then I'm 100% in support of it.

It won't. A defensive coach will help win more games and make us better contenders in the play-offs, but MDA's horrid end of game coaching and SSOL system will ultimately never pan out.

In the end, however, I would rather take a step in the right direction coaching wise than take no steps at all. After MDA fails again next season, hopefully we will have a legitimate head coach that knows both offensive and defensive principles of the game. One that knows how to pay attention to the minutiae of detail that is the difference between a loss and a win at the end of a game.... MDA is not that guy.
 

KBlack25

Starter
It won't. A defensive coach will help win more games and make us better contenders in the play-offs, but MDA's horrid end of game coaching and SSOL system will ultimately never pan out.

In the end, however, I would rather take a step in the right direction coaching wise than take no steps at all. After MDA fails again next season, hopefully we will have a legitimate head coach that knows both offensive and defensive principles of the game. One that knows how to pay attention to the minutiae of detail that is the difference between a loss and a win at the end of a game.... MDA is not that guy.

D'Antoni's adherence to his offensive doctrine these days is not as fanatical as it is often portrayed. (Knicks beat writers can spot press room newbies by their use of the phrase "seven seconds or less offense" in a question; the coach will nearly always point out that it was never a phrase, it was a book title, and not his idea.)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=110502/preview/katie-baker-on-the-new-york-knicks
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Yea Jack McCallum spent an entire season with the 05-06 Suns and eventually wrote the book "Seven Seconds or Less" and it was a lot catchier than Mike D'Antoni's system or Euroball Americano, but the Knicks still take a majority of their shots with 18-16 seconds still left on the shot clock. That averages out to 7 seconds.

So while MDA might not be in practice saying "ok, it's down to 17 seconds, lets get that shot up" his philosophy is to still get the earliest open shot, use a minimal amount of shot clock and game clock per possession to create extra possessions that wouldn't exist if you were running the clock down to an average of 10 seconds or so.

So while you can point out a "noob" who thinks the name of the system is actually SSOL, that has nothing to do with evaluating the system itself.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Yea Jack McCallum spent an entire season with the 05-06 Suns and eventually wrote the book "Seven Seconds or Less" and it was a lot catchier than Mike D'Antoni's system or Euroball Americano, but the Knicks still take a majority of their shots with 18-16 seconds still left on the shot clock. That averages out to 7 seconds.

So while MDA might not be in practice saying "ok, it's down to 17 seconds, lets get that shot up" his philosophy is to still get the earliest open shot, use a minimal amount of shot clock and game clock per possession to create extra possessions that wouldn't exist if you were running the clock down to an average of 10 seconds or so.

So while you can point out a "noob" who thinks the name of the system is actually SSOL, that has nothing to do with evaluating the system itself.

Actually, that's not true

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011NYK3.HTM

The Knicks take a majority of their shots with more than 10 seconds ticked off the clock.

Looking through that generally (I don't think there's a ranking), most teams take between 36 and 41% of their shots with 0-10 seconds off the clock. Which means at the low end a team is taking shots with 0-10 seconds off the clock about 5 less times per 100 possessions - which to me indicates the whole thing is a little bit overblown.
 

Red

TYPE-A
D'Antoni's adherence to his offensive doctrine these days is not as fanatical as it is often portrayed. (Knicks beat writers can spot press room newbies by their use of the phrase "seven seconds or less offense" in a question; the coach will nearly always point out that it was never a phrase, it was a book title, and not his idea.)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=110502/preview/katie-baker-on-the-new-york-knicks

Actually, that's not true

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011NYK3.HTM

The Knicks take a majority of their shots with more than 10 seconds ticked off the clock.

Looking through that generally (I don't think there's a ranking), most teams take between 36 and 41% of their shots with 0-10 seconds off the clock. Which means at the low end a team is taking shots with 0-10 seconds off the clock about 5 less times per 100 possessions - which to me indicates the whole thing is a little bit overblown.

While you're arguing ancillary issues as in what the system is called...

The "Spread Pick & Roll" entails much more than what the untrained eye (including reporters, writers, and most posters) recognizes.

And it's use as well as implementation promotes many more weaknesses than strengths, which by the way is independent of the poor coaching decisions observed.

All in all, the philosophy, approach, and the subsequent decisions based on such (like player acquisition) primarily indicate D'Antoni isn't built to compete for a championship...

His in-game decisions, poor player relations, and inability to motivate leave no doubt.

And I didn't even mention his poor defensive prowess.

Call it what you want, it doesn't work, as PROVEN every April til' June.
 

KBlack25

Starter
While you're arguing ancillary issues as in what the system is called...

The "Spread Pick & Roll" entails much more than what the untrained eye (including reporters, writers, and most posters) recognizes.

And it's use as well as implementation promotes many more weaknesses than strengths, which by the way is independent of the poor coaching decisions observed.

All in all, the philosophy, approach, and the subsequent decisions based on such (like player acquisition) primarily indicate D'Antoni isn't built to compete for a championship...

His in-game decisions, poor player relations, and inability to motivate leave no doubt.

And I didn't even mention his poor defensive prowess.

Call it what you want, it doesn't work, as PROVEN every April til' June.

You can dislike whatever you dislike Red, that's your choice.

But dislike it for the right/truthful reasons, that's all. Just trying to show that the seven seconds or less is a) an antiquated term that isn't really fair to MDA and b) a little bit overblown...not completely, but a little bit.
 
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Fact is, he's done now what many have clamored for all season - now people are mad he didn't do it sooner. This coming from the same people who, when talking about a SINGLE GAME, said you couldn't "look at things in hindsight"...

Wrong. I never ever wavered from wanting him fired. He's not the right man for the job at hand. I've never, ever written he needs a defensive assistant. You posted a quote where I said if you teach these guys defense they'll play defense. Which is true. Where did I say I want MOA doing the teaching? Where did I say an assistant under MOA should be doing the teaching? This guy is a joke of coach. Things have to be entirely perfect for him to win. AND, even if he does have his perfect roster there is no guarantee we're winning a chip. Get him outta here...
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
Wrong. I never ever wavered from wanting him fired. He's not the right man for the job at hand. I've never, ever written he needs a defensive assistant. You posted a quote where I said if you teach these guys defense they'll play defense. Which is true. Where did I say I want MOA doing the teaching? Where did I say an assistant under MOA should be doing the teaching? This guy is a joke of coach. Things have to be entirely perfect for him to win. AND, even if he does have his perfect roster there is no guarantee we're winning a chip. Get him outta here...

Well said.

Now, I do think a defensive assistant can help, but ultimately it will hurt us in the long run. MDA will still be calling the shots, and we won't use talented players because of him (Mozgov, Randolph, Brewer)
 

moneyg

Starter
Well said.

Now, I do think a defensive assistant can help, but ultimately it will hurt us in the long run. MDA will still be calling the shots, and we won't use talented players because of him (Mozgov, Randolph, Brewer)


agreed ... but he might not get fired because their wont be any highprofile coaches until the following season

so id have to settle for an assisant.... but Oantoni has to allow this assisatant to get valuable practice time with the team....which will cut into Oantoni's time...

the fact the Kblack says "Perhaps that's the only way he's going to keep his job..."


the mere fact thats the only reason he will even consider it is a disgrace...

he has to believe in it...and my concern is that he never will...he will just remain in denial
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
agreed ... but he might not get fired because their wont be any highprofile coaches until the following season

so id have to settle for an assisant.... but Oantoni has to allow this assisatant to get valuable practice time with the team....which will cut into Oantoni's time...

the fact the Kblack says "Perhaps that's the only way he's going to keep his job..."


the mere fact thats the only reason he will even consider it is a disgrace...

he has to believe in it...and my concern is that he never will...he will just remain in denial

Even if he does let the assistant have "valuable" time with the team, are we going to become a more deliberate offense? Are we going to crash the boards to try to get extra offensive possessions to compensate for our missed, early, shots, and give up points in transition? Or are we going to be a team that sacrifices offensive boards and get back on D on nearly every possession? If that's the mindset, we HAVE to change our offense.

Our offense needs to go hand in hand with our defense, and right now our offense = transition points for the opposing team. To have a defense at the level that we want and need to be true contenders, we need a slower, more deliberate offense. Preferably inside out. We can always run at the appropriate times, instead of trying to push the pace at all costs. But that comes from the top, Mike is gonna have to realize this and want this, and most importantly, be able to coach this style....comfortably.

These are the questions the front office need to ask and make a decision on which is more important, political correctness and image (keeping the coach in place after your first playoff appearance in 7 years), or building a team from top to bottom, that WILL be perennial contenders (firing this staff and putting together one where everyone is on the same page, philosophically).
 

moneyg

Starter
Even if he does let the assistant have "valuable" time with the team, are we going to become a more deliberate offense? Are we going to crash the boards to try to get extra offensive possessions to compensate for our missed, early, shots, and give up points in transition? Or are we going to be a team that sacrifices offensive boards and get back on D on nearly every possession? If that's the mindset, we HAVE to change our offense.

Our offense needs to go hand in hand with our defense, and right now our offense = transition points for the opposing team. To have a defense at the level that we want and need to be true contenders, we need a slower, more deliberate offense. Preferably inside out. We can always run at the appropriate times, instead of trying to push the pace at all costs. But that comes from the top, Mike is gonna have to realize this and want this, and most importantly, be able to coach this style....comfortably.

These are the questions the front office need to ask and make a decision on which is more important, political correctness and image (keeping the coach in place after your first playoff appearance in 7 years), or building a team from top to bottom, that WILL be perennial contenders (firing this staff and putting together one where everyone is on the same page, philosophically).

im not saying sign this dude to an extension .. but if we plan to keep him for one more year .. he has to conform...
 

Red

TYPE-A
Even if he does let the assistant have "valuable" time with the team, are we going to become a more deliberate offense? Are we going to crash the boards to try to get extra offensive possessions to compensate for our missed, early, shots, and give up points in transition? Or are we going to be a team that sacrifices offensive boards and get back on D on nearly every possession? If that's the mindset, we HAVE to change our offense.

Our offense needs to go hand in hand with our defense, and right now our offense = transition points for the opposing team. To have a defense at the level that we want and need to be true contenders, we need a slower, more deliberate offense. Preferably inside out. We can always run at the appropriate times, instead of trying to push the pace at all costs. But that comes from the top, Mike is gonna have to realize this and want this, and most importantly, be able to coach this style....comfortably.

These are the questions the front office need to ask and make a decision on which is more important, political correctness and image (keeping the coach in place after your first playoff appearance in 7 years), or building a team from top to bottom, that WILL be perennial contenders (firing this staff and putting together one where everyone is on the same page, philosophically).

Agreed.

The only way a defensive assistant works is when he is able to perpetuate the ideals of the HC. And no one is willing to believe in MDA's approach.

If this is a situation where the assistant's philosophies subvert MDA's then a combative relationship can form. This can divide a team (as you say everyone needs to be on the same page) and caused more issues.

An assistant is just that- he assists in what the HC is trying to do. He can't if they don't both agree with the approach.

is MDA willing to accept this? Accept getting rid of "his staff", or circumventing them?

No. I can only speculate that's what's going on behind the scenes. The front office and the coach may be at an impass, and might be realizing they share irreconcilable differences.
 
Even if he does let the assistant have "valuable" time with the team, are we going to become a more deliberate offense? Are we going to crash the boards to try to get extra offensive possessions to compensate for our missed, early, shots, and give up points in transition? Or are we going to be a team that sacrifices offensive boards and get back on D on nearly every possession? If that's the mindset, we HAVE to change our offense.

Our offense needs to go hand in hand with our defense, and right now our offense = transition points for the opposing team. To have a defense at the level that we want and need to be true contenders, we need a slower, more deliberate offense. Preferably inside out. We can always run at the appropriate times, instead of trying to push the pace at all costs. But that comes from the top, Mike is gonna have to realize this and want this, and most importantly, be able to coach this style....comfortably.

These are the questions the front office need to ask and make a decision on which is more important, political correctness and image (keeping the coach in place after your first playoff appearance in 7 years), or building a team from top to bottom, that WILL be perennial contenders (firing this staff and putting together one where everyone is on the same page, philosophically).

This is so true. Well said...
 
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