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Thread: Z-Bo and Jamal

  1. #76
    Veteran Sprewell-Houston's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    OKC choked so hard yesterday. Btw we should trade for Mayo. Mayo can play SG and PG and he's a pretty good defender. He guarded Westbrook pretty well yesterday. Although i love TD, i think we should trade him for Mayo.
    I think we should trade Fields for Mayo!

  2. #77
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    Originally Posted by KingStarbury3
    I could see if we had another good point guard on the team, I'd be willing to buy into the "Marbury is a cancer" argument but Chris ****in Duhon?

    I honestly think the bigger cancers on that team that shoulda been the primary targets for Walsh and Dant to get rid of were QRich, Jerome James, Curry, and Jeffries. I gotta say Crawford too, at that time he was less efficient then he is now, a turnover prone chucker that played zero defense. Z-Bo is the one guy that raises questions with me. I just looked at his stats. We were winning games and he was averaging a career high in rebounds. That would be my biggest issue with Walsh is i was anti-Walsh, not gettin more for ZBo even if the deal was mostly made to clear cap space which it was. Zbo for Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley? Shoulda got a 1st round pick too
    Great Post. I agree. People kept making excuses whenever Walsh traded players for garbage. I understand he was trying to clear capspace, but trading Zach Randolph for Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley was just a horrible trade. And so was the 2 first round picks and Jared Jeffries for washed up Tracy McGrady trade.

    I like the players the Knicks have now, but the Knicks need a defensive minded coach, and I think the Knicks really messed up in the '08 and '09 draft.
    Last edited by abcd; May 08, 2011 at 18:58.

  3. #78
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Great Post. I agree. People kept making excuses whenever Walsh traded players for garbage. I understand he was trying to clear capspace, but trading Zach Randolph for Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley was just a horrible trade. And so was the 2 first round picks and Jared Jeffries for washed up Tracy McGrady trade.

    I like the players the Knicks have now, but the Knicks need a defensive minded coach, and I think the Knicks really messed up in the '08 and '09 draft.
    But the only reason the Knicks HAVE the players they have now is BECAUSE Walsh cleared cap room.

    I understand the sentiment, talent wise we got burned short-term trading Zach for Tim Thomas (who I hate more than any player in the league) and Mobley...and hated the swapping first rounders (though it didn't matter) and the pick next year for McGraady to clear room.

    But long-term we benefitted talent wise BECAUSE we cleared room.

  4. #79
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    Originally Posted by Sprewell-Houston
    I think we should trade Fields for Mayo!
    LOL why would Memphis EVER do that?

  5. #80
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    But the only reason the Knicks HAVE the players they have now is BECAUSE Walsh cleared cap room.

    I understand the sentiment, talent wise we got burned short-term trading Zach for Tim Thomas (who I hate more than any player in the league) and Mobley...and hated the swapping first rounders (though it didn't matter) and the pick next year for McGraady to clear room.

    But long-term we benefitted talent wise BECAUSE we cleared room.
    Like Kingstarbury said, Walsh targeted the wrong players.

    The Knicks would have still gotten the capspace they needed, had they got rid of Quentin Richardson, Jerome James, Jared Jeffries, and Eddy Curry. Those guys alone combined for 33 million dollars in contracts. Randolph and Crawford combined for 20 million dollars in contracts.

    If you notice, none of the above players mentioned are on the team. Walsh managed to trade Jerome James, Quentin Richardson, and Jared Jeffries(25 million dollars worth of garbage). So that means Walsh definitely could have gotten rid of those guys and kept ZBo.

    Walsh just bought into what the media said and assumed he was a cancer. He made a mistake.

    I like some of the things Walsh has done, but a lot of his decisions are questionable.
    For ex:
    Drafting Gallinari in '08 over Brook Lopez and Roy Hibbert. The Knicks still don't have a center.
    Drafting Jordan Hill over Brandon Jennings.
    Trading 2 first round picks for Tracy McGrady(washed up edition).
    Trading Randolph for nothing, instead of being patient and getting rid of Quentin Richardson and Jerome James instead(which he managed to do later on anyways).
    Last edited by abcd; May 09, 2011 at 09:13.

  6. #81
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Like Kingstarbury said, Walsh targeted the wrong players.

    The Knicks would have still got the capspace they needed, had they got rid of Quentin Richardson, Jerome James, Jared Jeffries, and Eddy Curry. Those guys alone combined for 33 million dollars in contracts. Randolph and Crawford combined for 22 million dollars in contracts.
    Understood - but unfortunately Eddy was pretty untradeable...nobody was taking on TWO years of 11 million per for nothing.

  7. #82
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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Great Post. I agree. People kept making excuses whenever Walsh traded players for garbage. I understand he was trying to clear capspace, but trading Zach Randolph for Tim Thomas and Cuttino Mobley was just a horrible trade. And so was the 2 first round picks and Jared Jeffries for washed up Tracy McGrady trade.

    I like the players the Knicks have now, but the Knicks need a defensive minded coach, and I think the Knicks really messed up in the '08 and '09 draft.
    Why blame Walsh?

    It was clear we had a perfect replacement for Z-Bo's production

    in David Lee.

    Lee is just as productive, cheaper, and abidextrous...

    Says the casual fan!



    We knew better.

  8. #83
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Why blame Walsh?

    It was clear we had a perfect replacement for Z-Bo's production

    in David Lee.

    Lee is just as productive, cheaper, and abidextrous...

    Says the casual fan!



    We knew better.
    The replacement for ZBo was a free agent, who we could acquire by letting him go.

    His name is Amare Stoudemire.

  9. #84
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    The replacement for ZBo was a free agent, who we could acquire by letting him go.

    His name is Amare Stoudemire.
    The Knicks had to spend 100 million dollars to get Stoudemire. Randolph only cost the Grizzlies 66 million dollars.

    And the 2010 plan was all about greed. Walsh wanted to instantly buy a championship. He could have kept the best players on the Knicks and saved up for 1 max contract instead of 2.

  10. #85
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    The replacement for ZBo was a free agent, who we could acquire by letting him go.

    His name is Amare Stoudemire.
    Right, because Walsh knew Stat would be available 2years later. Uh huh.

    It had nothing to do with the thought that Lee could hold things down.

    Sometimes, I don't even know why I bother.

  11. #86
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Right, because Walsh knew Stat would be available 2years later. Uh huh.

    It had nothing to do with the thought that Lee could hold things down.

    Sometimes, I don't even know why I bother.
    STAT was in the 2010 class - as was LeBron, Bosh, Wade, Boozer, Dirk, Allen, Shaq - the goal was always to get under the cap BEFORE the 2010 offseason for the stated purpose of having cards to play in the 2010 offseason. In fact, Walsh said coming in his goal was to get under the cap...I don't know why you bother arguing that his goal was not to get under the cap.

    His stated goal coming in was to gain back cap flexibility that Isiah had lost us.

    Originally Posted by abcd
    The Knicks had to spend 100 million dollars to get Stoudemire. Randolph only cost the Grizzlies 66 million dollars.

    And the 2010 plan was all about greed. Walsh wanted to instantly buy a championship. He could have kept the best players on the Knicks and saved up for 1 max contract instead of 2.
    No he couldn't have done that...mostly b/c most of the guys you mention were essentially untradeable before the 2010 offseason.

    Randolph costs less because he isn't as good. I'm not saying Randolph is bad - but the fact is Randolph isn't a gamechanger to the extent Amare is. Do you think that this team would have done as well if you replace Amare with ZBo early in the year, when STAT carried this entire team on his back? Hell, would Carmelo have demanded to come here to play with ZBo?

    Yes, it would have been nice to dump Curry instead of Randolph. But nobody was going to take on Curry b/c it was essentially lost money on a non-expiring deal. We lost the best players on our team because (surprise!) they were the best players on the team. Teams aren't just going to take on OUR ****ty contracts for no reason...teams WERE willing to take on extended deals for Z-Bo and Crawford BECAUSE they were good...

  12. #87
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    No he couldn't have done that...mostly b/c most of the guys you mention were essentially untradeable before the 2010 offseason.

    Randolph costs less because he isn't as good. I'm not saying Randolph is bad - but the fact is Randolph isn't a gamechanger to the extent Amare is. Do you think that this team would have done as well if you replace Amare with ZBo early in the year, when STAT carried this entire team on his back? Hell, would Carmelo have demanded to come here to play with ZBo?
    That's not true. Walsh got rid of Quentin Richardson, Jerome James and Jared Jeffries before the 2010 offseason. That's 25 million dollars off the books.

    It's not all about getting big names. It's about building chemistry between players.

    Zach Randolph, Wilson Chandler, and Jamal Crawford had experience on the Knicks. They knew what was expected of them.

    Passing up on Brook Lopez, Roy Hibbert, and Brandon Jennings is inexcusable.

    The Knicks could have still signed another Max contract, had they kept Randolph. All they had to do was dump Quentin Richardson, Jerome James, and Jared Jeffries which they were able to do shortly after dumping Randolph for crumbs.

    Being that Walsh was able to dump Quentin Richardson, Jerome James, and Jared Jeffries PRIOR to 2010, that shows Walsh just needed to be patient and the Knicks could have had a good core of players who had experience playing together, instead of having to start from scratch like how they're doing now.

    I like Stoudemire, Anthony, and Billups, but this team is built with guys who barely know each other and are going to have to spend AT LEAST another 2 years together before they can legitimately be contenders. And that is a big if, considering Stoudemire has bad knees and might not even make it that long.

  13. #88
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    But the only reason we traded Jerome James is b/c we also gave the Bulls Tim Thomas, who we traded for Z-Bo...

    I'm not saying Z-Bo is bad, quite the opposite - but the fact is to be major players in 2010 he unfortunately needed to go.

    We wouldn't have STAT and Melo if we kept Crawford and ZBo...

    And can we please PLEASE get off the Brook Lopez hype...I know you have been a fan of him, but the fact is he is a 7 footer that refuses to rebound, he's not that good - 6 rebounds per game in 35 minutes per game for a 7 foot CENTER is embarssing. Hibbert I like, but he started getting much better this year post-being-diagnosed-with-asthma and cutting down his body fat by an insane amount, he was slow up and down the court out of college and I think Walsh feared Curry 2.0.

    Not that any of that would matter - Lopez, Hibbert or Jennings would be Nuggets now anyway.

    And I'm not doubting Walsh got a little overzealous - but he came here with the intent in mind to get under the cap and maintain flexibility. Honestly, if teams weren't willing to just give Chicago and Miami room under the cap for no reason, we would have stood a better shot at Wade and James - unfortunately at the draft it was obvious teams were all too eager to take Chicago and Miami's players and contracts for no reason...but this was well after the 2010 game was under way.
    Last edited by KBlack25; May 09, 2011 at 12:53.

  14. #89
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    But the only reason we traded Jerome James is b/c we also gave the Bulls Tim Thomas, who we traded for Z-Bo...
    That's not the case. The Bulls didn't want Tim Thomas. He was washed up at that point. They just wanted James' expring contract.

  15. #90
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    But the only reason we traded Jerome James is b/c we also gave the Bulls Tim Thomas, who we traded for Z-Bo...

    I'm not saying Z-Bo is bad, quite the opposite - but the fact is to be major players in 2010 he unfortunately needed to go.

    We wouldn't have STAT and Melo if we kept Crawford and ZBo...

    And can we please PLEASE get off the Brook Lopez hype...I know you have been a fan of him, but the fact is he is a 7 footer that refuses to rebound, he's not that good - 6 rebounds per game in 35 minutes per game for a 7 foot CENTER is embarssing. Hibbert I like, but he started getting much better this year post-being-diagnosed-with-asthma and cutting down his body fat by an insane amount, he was slow up and down the court out of college and I think Walsh feared Curry 2.0.
    If the KNicks kept ZBO and Crawford and dumped Quentin Richardson, Jerome James, and Jared Jeffries(which they did) then they would have had the capspace to sign either Stoudemire or Anthony. The Knicks wouldn't have needed both anyway.

    I saw Brook Lopez this season, because I have Yes! Network.
    He is a future all star. Don't just look at boxscores and stats. If you watch the guy play, he has skills. He is the most skilled post up center in the NBA. His shotblocking is good. His rebounding did drop, but that had a lot to do with his injury plus Humphries was grabbing almost 12 boards per game.

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