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Thread: Can we kill 2 birds w/ one stone?

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Yeah. We got played heavily by Melo. Denver and the Nets as well. I think it's pretty obvious what happened. Melo told Denver he would only sign an extension with the Knicks. That's pretty obvious. Or else he would have been traded to the Nets, or any other team for that matter. There were several opportunities throughout the season.

    Since teams are not allowed to talk to other teams' players, Denver gave us permission to talk to Melo because Denver felt we were dragging our feet and weren't offering enough. Melo then told us he wouldn't wait until the summer and wanted the extension, fooling us into believing he would go to the Nets and forcing us to give all of our young talent, assets and draft picks.

    Thanks Melo!
    We get it...you hate a top 10 player who wanted to play for your team but also wanted to protect himself from an unknown CBA which could come with less money and franchise tags, an unforeseen career ending injury or months more of the speculation and media frenzy.

    That said, you did not address my point that the CP3 "decision" will be different because the new CBA will be established. CP3 actually can wait to FA and know exactly what will be waiting for him.

  2. #32
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    This is incorrect. You are assuming we are at or below the cap limit. We are above the cap right now with only 8 players on the roster. Also, Amare and Melo's salaries increase each year. Also, you are not taking into account the minimum roster cap hold.

    It's not a 1:1 ratio. The Lakers could have $20 mil coming off their books and still be over the cap. Just because we have $19 mil coming off the books does not mean we have $19 mil in cap space.

    We will have approx $44 mil in total team salary in 2012 with ONLY 2 PLAYERYS ON THE ROSTER ($19.45 + $19.95 + $4.75 = $44.15). This is including NOT picking up Douglas' option and somehow trading Balkman for an expiring contract.

    The salary cap this year was $58 mil. If the cap stays the same we will have only $14 mil in cap space with just Melo and Amare on the roster. That's $14 mil for CP3 and the rest on minimum salary D-Leage level scrubs at $475,000 per year.

    If we keep Douglas and are unable to trade Balkman, we will have approx $47 mil in team salary leaving us with only $11 mil in cap space.

    This, ofcourse, is under the assumption the cap will remain the same, which it won't. Some reports say the cap will lower, others say it will rise. There are also some rumors of a hard cap to $70 mil. Which may help us in the short run but is hard for me to believe will help us in the long run.

    Hard to predict at this point. The cap rose $1mil (from $57 mil to $58 mil) last year.

    I'm sorry to keep bringing up these facts. Everybody doesn't seem to like it and bashes me for bringing up the ugly truth. The numbers don't lie. If everybody would rather not hear the truth, you have the option of blocking my posts or just not reading them.
    Your right..

    I shouldn't have said we'll have 19mil in cap space. But won't we have that money to spend?

    And yes we're over the cap now. But explain to me how we're allowed to make a trade at mid season while being over (I think) the cap for Melo and other guys that put us even farther over it??

    Say the CBA stayed the same.. Why couldn't we do that in the case of Paul?

    The Lakers and other teams are way over the cap and have made similar moves. Isn't Miami over as well? Sh*t half of the league is over the cap. Why are we handcuffed?

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    We get it...you hate a top 10 player who wanted to play for your team but also wanted to protect himself from an unknown CBA which could come with less money and franchise tags, an unforeseen career ending injury or months more of the speculation and media frenzy.
    You're a reasonable man, Trill. You'll see, someday. Maybe even as early as this summer.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    That said, you did not address my point that the CP3 "decision" will be different because the new CBA will be established. CP3 actually can wait to FA and know exactly what will be waiting for him.
    Yes, somewhat different. But not different enough to force New Orleans to give the best PG in the game away for practically nothing. I'm sorry, I just don't see how they would give him away for Fields + our pick from this year, which is all we have to offer. Maybe Douglas too. No picks, nothing. Once again, Kicks fans overvalue their players. Fields looked like crap since the Melo trade, his value is not that high.

    Everyone thinks the Hornets will bow down to any demand CP3 gives them because they stand to lose him for nothing. I just don't see it. Call me a hater or whatever you want. But New Orleans would rather go into free agency and receive a trade exception, which has much more value than Fields. This is power in New Orleans favor and works against us and CP3, regardless of whatever his demands may be.

    We are also assuming CP3 will demand anything and if he demands a trade that it be it only New York. This is a massively hopeful assumption with no indications at all that he would do such a thing. Given CP3's personality and how he's acted in the past towards the city and management, I don't see him being so selfish and hurtful to that franchise. It doesn't seem to fit his nature.

    But, that is just my opinion. Which I'm allowed to state here, even if it isn't the typical blind fan "Melo is God, CP3 will come" banter with no focus on reality that has taken over this site.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You're a reasonable man, Trill. You'll see, someday. Maybe even as early as this summer.



    Yes, somewhat different. But not different enough to force New Orleans to give the best PG in the game away for practically nothing. I'm sorry, I just don't see how they would give him away for Fields + our pick from this year, which is all we have to offer. Maybe Douglas too. No picks, nothing. Once again, Kicks fans overvalue their players. Fields looked like crap since the Melo trade, his value is not that high.

    Everyone thinks the Hornets will bow down to any demand CP3 gives them because they stand to lose him for nothing. I just don't see it. Call me a hater or whatever you want. But New Orleans would rather go into free agency and receive a trade exception, which has much more value than Fields. This is power in New Orleans favor and works against us and CP3, regardless of whatever his demands may be.

    We are also assuming CP3 will demand anything and if he demands a trade that it be it only New York. This is a massively hopeful assumption with no indications at all that he would do such a thing. Given CP3's personality and how he's acted in the past towards the city and management, I don't see him being so selfish and hurtful to that franchise. It doesn't seem to fit his nature.

    But, that is just my opinion. Which I'm allowed to state here, even if it isn't the typical blind fan "Melo is God, CP3 will come" banter with no focus on reality that has taken over this site.

    1. Melo is not god but he is certainly better than you have been giving him credit for.
    2. You fault Melo unfairly for wanting to secure his future and not look like an ass to Denver.
    3. I never stated CP3 will demand a trade here I only made mention to a difference with regards to the CBA that went unmentioned.
    4. We have more trade bait then just Fields and that includes future picks and expiring contracts.
    5. I am by no means trying to assert that CP3 is a lock or even likely and again only pointed out a difference and defense with regards to Melo.
    6. Calm down.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Your right..

    I shouldn't have said we'll have 19mil in cap space. But won't we have that money to spend?

    And yes we're over the cap now. But explain to me how we're allowed to make a trade at mid season while being over (I think) the cap for Melo and other guys that put us even farther over it??

    Say the CBA stayed the same.. Why couldn't we do that in the case of Paul?

    The Lakers and other teams are way over the cap and have made similar moves. Isn't Miami over as well? Sh*t half of the league is over the cap. Why are we handcuffed?
    I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I think you misunderstand how cap space and being under the cap works.

    When a team is under the cap, the only money they are allowed to spend on free agents is the dollar amount under the cap they are at. They cannot go over the cap to sign free agents.

    Teams over the cap at the beginning of free agency are only allowed to sign free agents to the MLE. The MLE in the past has been around $5 mil - $6 mil per year.

    So, if we want to sign CP3, our total team salary needs to be under the cap by the amount CP3 will sign for.

    I hope this clarifies your questions.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I think you misunderstand how cap space and being under the cap works.

    When a team is under the cap, the only money they are allowed to spend on free agents is the dollar amount under the cap they are at. They cannot go over the cap to sign free agents.

    Teams over the cap at the beginning of free agency are only allowed to sign free agents to the MLE. The MLE in the past has been around $5 mil - $6 mil per year.

    So, if we want to sign CP3, our total team salary needs to be under the cap by the amount CP3 will sign for.

    I hope this clarifies your questions.
    Or via a sign-n-trade which will allow us to go over the cap.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    1. Melo is not god but he is certainly better than you have been giving him credit for.
    2. You fault Melo unfairly for wanting to secure his future and not look like an ass to Denver.
    3. I never stated CP3 will demand a trade here I only made mention to a difference with regards to the CBA that went unmentioned.
    4. We have more trade bait then just Fields and that includes future picks and expiring contracts.
    5. I am by no means trying to assert that CP3 is a lock or even likely and again only pointed out a difference and defense with regards to Melo.
    6. Calm down.
    Trill, you are not one of the blind fans I was referring to. There are many posters that don't like my message. I get the impression the only negative thing permitted on this site is about D'Antoni. There has been a hive mentality that has taken over this site.

    To clarfiy a couple things:

    We do not have any picks to trade until 2016.

    All of our expiring contracts would need to be used to make CP3's salary match what we give them.

    Our expiring contracts are of no value to New Orleans. They are however valuable to other teams/players, hence why I have suggested we forget CP3 and use them to build a solid team around Melo and Amare.

    I don't believe I am faulting Melo unfairly. I believe you are giving him too much of a pass for what he did, which to me, seems obvious.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; May 16, 2011 at 12:29.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Or via a sign-n-trade which will allow us to go over the cap.
    True. But you still need to match salaries and provide enough assets to entice the team to absorb that amount of salary.

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    Default Cp3

    I have little to say that LJ4ptPlay has not already said. He has his facts straight and is applying them rationally. Because of Amare's and Melo's salaries we are going to have increasingly serious cap problems. I believe that in the 2014/15 season their combined salaries will be just under $47M. CP3 is a luxury we will not be able to afford.

    Unlike the Lakers who have LA and a real assset in Bynum, I do not see us as players for D. Howard or CP3. I also believe that the new CBA will certainly include real financial incentives for players like CP3 to stay with their original teams. Such a provision is in the interests of most of the franchises and hardly something the players' union would oppose.

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I think you misunderstand how cap space and being under the cap works.

    When a team is under the cap, the only money they are allowed to spend on free agents is the dollar amount under the cap they are at. They cannot go over the cap to sign free agents.

    Teams over the cap at the beginning of free agency are only allowed to sign free agents to the MLE. The MLE in the past has been around $5 mil - $6 mil per year.

    So, if we want to sign CP3, our total team salary needs to be under the cap by the amount CP3 will sign for.

    I hope this clarifies your questions.
    Thank you for answering my questions. I feel a little less retarded now when it comes to the CBA. ;-)

    Originally Posted by Oldtimer
    I have little to say that LJ4ptPlay has not already said. He has his facts straight and is applying them rationally. Because of Amare's and Melo's salaries we are going to have increasingly serious cap problems. I believe that in the 2014/15 season their combined salaries will be just under $47M. CP3 is a luxury we will not be able to afford.

    Unlike the Lakers who have LA and a real assset in Bynum, I do not see us as players for D. Howard or CP3. I also believe that the new CBA will certainly include real financial incentives for players like CP3 to stay with their original teams. Such a provision is in the interests of most of the franchises and hardly something the players' union would oppose.
    You guys are killing me..

    So, the best way to get him would be via sign and trade it seems.

    Am I correct in saying this?

    Aren't there already financial incentives for players to stay w their current teams? Seems to me that star caliber players are more concerned w being on a contending team than staying w a team that can pay for them to stay in a bad situation w re: to winning a chip.

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Trill, you are not one of the blind fans I was referring to. There are many posters that don't like my message. I get the impression the only negative thing permitted on this site is about D'Antoni. There has been a hive mentality that has taken over this site.

    To clarfiy a couple things:

    We do not have any picks to trade until 2016.

    All of our expiring contracts would need to be used to make CP3's salary match what we give them.

    Our expiring contracts are of no value to New Orleans. They are however valuable to other teams/players, hence why I have suggested we forget CP3 and use them to build a solid team around Melo and Amare.

    I don't believe I am faulting Melo unfairly. I believe you are giving him too much of a pass for what he did, which to me, seems obvious.
    Why are our expiring contracts of no value to NO?

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    Originally Posted by Oldtimer
    I have little to say that LJ4ptPlay has not already said. He has his facts straight and is applying them rationally.
    +1

    Also, LJ4ptPlay is working under the current CBA rules, which is pretty much moot. Personally, I believe the next CBA will be more restrictive on NY's cap space, more favorable to teams keeping their stars, and just generally less conducive to NY's attempts to create a Big 3 in NY.

    I won't rule it out the possibility of getting CP3, because Donnie Walsh has proven to be a magician in NY. But I agree that any foreseeable scenario that would land CP3 in NY is farfetched, and building a solid team with depth around Amare & Melo is a smarter route.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Aren't there already financial incentives for players to stay w their current teams? Seems to me that star caliber players are more concerned w being on a contending team than staying w a team that can pay for them to stay in a bad situation w re: to winning a chip.
    The only incentives right now are that the current team can offer 6 years and slightly more money (other teams are limited to 5 years and I think a bit less money per year).

    They're looking to increase the gap in incentives favoring the player's current team a lot more in the next CBA.

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    Have Dolan buy the NO Hornets from NBA Stern.....
    before Stern add a BIG-6 of outstanding Role-Players for CP3
    to go to the WCF...

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    We don't need another superstar. Let's stop getting greedy. The Bulls pounced on the Heat last night with Derrek Rose and a bunch of guys that play DEFENSE.

    Lets get some good hybrid players, a real center, and an actual head coach that knows both facets of the game...

    CP3 is amazing, but we need a team before we need a player.

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