Sorry MDA fans. A new coach is imperative

KBlack25

Starter
Mike Antoni sucks.

Ducktales, I wish you were right, but there are unfortunately a lot of Mike Antoni fans out there(KBlack25, Tr1ll1on, JPZ17, Pat) just to name a few.

There's a difference between being an MDA fan and not being so overly reactionary...

Again, to reiterate my stance: Firing MDA is ONLY worth it if we get somebody better. I don't see us getting anybody better...at least until MDA's contract runs out and we can throw big bucks at Phil Jackson. The names I have seen listed here, beyond Rick Adelman (who is going to LA I think), have been a fairly pathetic crop (Mike Brown and even, yes, Lawrence Frank who has been suggested) or unrealistic pipe-dreams (Sloan, JVG)...We want to all sit here and say "Fire MDA and Hire JVG/Sloan/Adelman", but nobody bothers to consider that the latter may be unrealistic or impossible. I honestly think the latter half (hiring a very good coach) is not in our future if we fire MDA immediately.

I also think it's unrealistic to think Dolan will fire MDA with a lockout looming, pay MDA the 6 mil he is owed and pay another coach a fair salary (and a substantial one, if we want anybody halfway decent) when there might be no basketball next year.

I'd rather wait a year with MDA and throw $ at Jackson than fire MDA and be stuck with an off-brand even worse coach for the long term...
 
There's a difference between being an MDA fan and not being so overly reactionary...

Again, to reiterate my stance: Firing MDA is ONLY worth it if we get somebody better. I don't see us getting anybody better...at least until MDA's contract runs out and we can throw big bucks at Phil Jackson. The names I have seen listed here, beyond Rick Adelman (who is going to LA I think), have been a fairly pathetic crop (Mike Brown and even, yes, Lawrence Frank who has been suggested) or unrealistic pipe-dreams (Sloan, JVG)...We want to all sit here and say "Fire MDA and Hire JVG/Sloan/Adelman", but nobody bothers to consider that the latter may be unrealistic or impossible. I honestly think the latter half (hiring a very good coach) is not in our future if we fire MDA immediately.

I also think it's unrealistic to think Dolan will fire MDA with a lockout looming, pay MDA the 6 mil he is owed and pay another coach a fair salary (and a substantial one, if we want anybody halfway decent) when there might be no basketball next year.

I'd rather wait a year with MDA and throw $ at Jackson than fire MDA and be stuck with an off-brand even worse coach for the long term...
This.

I think we're going to try to get Phil Jackson as well, also isn't Greg Pop available in 2012 as well?
 
There's a difference between being an MDA fan and not being so overly reactionary...

Again, to reiterate my stance: Firing MDA is ONLY worth it if we get somebody better. I don't see us getting anybody better...at least until MDA's contract runs out and we can throw big bucks at Phil Jackson. The names I have seen listed here, beyond Rick Adelman (who is going to LA I think), have been a fairly pathetic crop (Mike Brown and even, yes, Lawrence Frank who has been suggested) or unrealistic pipe-dreams (Sloan, JVG)...We want to all sit here and say "Fire MDA and Hire JVG/Sloan/Adelman", but nobody bothers to consider that the latter may be unrealistic or impossible. I honestly think the latter half (hiring a very good coach) is not in our future if we fire MDA immediately.

I also think it's unrealistic to think Dolan will fire MDA with a lockout looming, pay MDA the 6 mil he is owed and pay another coach a fair salary (and a substantial one, if we want anybody halfway decent) when there might be no basketball next year.

I'd rather wait a year with MDA and throw $ at Jackson than fire MDA and be stuck with an off-brand even worse coach for the long term...

Better? Dont you think you're overstating MOA's ability just a tad? There are assistants out there right now that would be much better than he is. Adelman? There is no guarantee he'd go to LA if the Knicks jumped in. Throw enough coin at Phil and he may want to come back to NY. There are definitely better options out there than MOA.
 

NewYork 21 Knicks

Benchwarmer
mda has an 8 man rotation... tibs plays 8 diffrent centers in one game... that is why dantoni will never be a good coach and hopefully dolan can see that and cut him loose once the season is over. i actually think he is going too and hes just waiting to see what happens with the whole lockout situation
 
Better? Dont you think you're overstating MOA's ability just a tad? There are assistants out there right now that would be much better than he is. Adelman? There is no guarantee he'd go to LA if the Knicks jumped in. Throw enough coin at Phil and he may want to come back to NY. There are definitely better options out there than MOA.
But there might not even be a season next year, why pay a new coach to not coach?
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
There's a difference between being an MDA fan and not being so overly reactionary...

Again, to reiterate my stance: Firing MDA is ONLY worth it if we get somebody better. I don't see us getting anybody better...at least until MDA's contract runs out and we can throw big bucks at Phil Jackson. The names I have seen listed here, beyond Rick Adelman (who is going to LA I think), have been a fairly pathetic crop (Mike Brown and even, yes, Lawrence Frank who has been suggested) or unrealistic pipe-dreams (Sloan, JVG)...We want to all sit here and say "Fire MDA and Hire JVG/Sloan/Adelman", but nobody bothers to consider that the latter may be unrealistic or impossible. I honestly think the latter half (hiring a very good coach) is not in our future if we fire MDA immediately.

I also think it's unrealistic to think Dolan will fire MDA with a lockout looming, pay MDA the 6 mil he is owed and pay another coach a fair salary (and a substantial one, if we want anybody halfway decent) when there might be no basketball next year.

I'd rather wait a year with MDA and throw $ at Jackson than fire MDA and be stuck with an off-brand even worse coach for the long term...

I dunno what KBlack mean by "better" because it's Mike's philosophy and mismanagement that costs Knicks games and the opportunity to compete at a higher level. His "system" and style makes it tough to do more with less for 82 games and then the post season....so technically anyone with a different approach who can manage the game clock, timeouts, rotations, etc. would be "better."

This is a prime example of what I mean when I say living "retweeters" of newspapers and ESPN. A whole lotta nothing.

I'd be willing to give Mike Budenholzer a shot, Brian Shaw, or pry Ron Adams away from the Bulls, and those are just 3 top assistants that come to mind. It's been reported that Sloan would consider coming back to the right situation for the right amount of coin...not sure why you think he's a pipe dream.

But more importantly, the "right" coach is the coach who'll make sure the Knicks are ready for a backdoor alley-oop to KG, coming out of a timeout, with a one point lead....in the ****ing playoffs.

Your statement of finding someone "better" is a little too general. Better in what aspects?
 

KBlack25

Starter
I dunno what KBlack mean by "better" because it's Mike's philosophy and mismanagement that costs Knicks games and the opportunity to compete at a higher level. His "system" and style makes it tough to do more with less for 82 games and then the post season....so technically anyone with a different approach who can manage the game clock, timeouts, rotations, etc. would be "better."

This is a prime example of what I mean when I say living "retweeters" of newspapers and ESPN. A whole lotta nothing.

I'd be willing to give Mike Budenholzer a shot, Brian Shaw, or pry Ron Adams away from the Bulls, and those are just 3 top assistants that come to mind. It's been reported that Sloan would consider coming back to the right situation for the right amount of coin...not sure why you think he's a pipe dream.

But more importantly, the "right" coach is the coach who'll make sure the Knicks are ready for a backdoor alley-oop to KG, coming out of a timeout, with a one point lead....in the ****ing playoffs.

Your statement of finding someone "better" is a little too general. Better in what aspects?

What evidence do we have that Budenholzer, Shaw, Adams or anyone would be able to do the things you mentioned? Budenholzer is a pipe dream anyway - he has been in San Antonio for 14 years, something tells me he is there with Pop for the long haul. Shaw has also been somebody LA has seem intent on keeping. Adams you say we would have to "pry" away from Chicago.

"Technically" someone with a different approach is different. We have no evidence that the three guys you mention would "effectively manage gameclock, rotations, timeouts, etc." So again, this comes down to "Fire MDA and hire (?)" where the question mark remains undefined, ambiguous and unclear if we would even get anybody.

I mean you can sit here and complain about how MDA sucks, whatever you want to say. But you have to deal with the facts: Dolan is not going to have two coaches on the payroll when there is a chance no basketball is getting played next year.

You can sit here and scream about how you want MDA fired, but realistically that isn't going to happen this year.

You can make 1 million threads every day about how you hate MDA, but every one of them will fall on effectively deaf ears.

You see how long it took the crowd to chant "Fire Isiah"? And he still isn't really gone. We, as fans, have no real power over the front office. Fact is, based on the FACTS I have accepted the REALITY that MDA will be the coach this year, and my thought is, how do we win in THIS situation...

To me: before any coach is a success here, the roster needs major help. If we get the talent here, I think it's a more attractive spot to guys like Sloan, Adelman and Jackson.
 

KBlack25

Starter
I dont think ownership that would have a 200 mill dollar payroll if they could is really concerned about 6 million dollars. If it makes sense to go in a different direction they should...

Every single beat writer for NY that I have seen disagrees with you. They say MDA will be coach b/c Dolan does not want to have 2 headcoaches on the payroll for 0 basketball games played.
 

Red

TYPE-A
There's a difference between being an MDA fan and not being so overly reactionary...

Again, to reiterate my stance: Firing MDA is ONLY worth it if we get somebody better. I don't see us getting anybody better...at least until MDA's contract runs out and we can throw big bucks at Phil Jackson. The names I have seen listed here, beyond Rick Adelman (who is going to LA I think), have been a fairly pathetic crop (Mike Brown and even, yes, Lawrence Frank who has been suggested) or unrealistic pipe-dreams (Sloan, JVG)...We want to all sit here and say "Fire MDA and Hire JVG/Sloan/Adelman", but nobody bothers to consider that the latter may be unrealistic or impossible. I honestly think the latter half (hiring a very good coach) is not in our future if we fire MDA immediately.

I also think it's unrealistic to think Dolan will fire MDA with a lockout looming, pay MDA the 6 mil he is owed and pay another coach a fair salary (and a substantial one, if we want anybody halfway decent) when there might be no basketball next year.

I'd rather wait a year with MDA and throw $ at Jackson than fire MDA and be stuck with an off-brand even worse coach for the long term...

Do you break-up with your girl when you find out she's cheating?

-or-

Do you wait until you find a new one first?

Keeping an overpaid non-essential employee around because there is no clear replacement is just prolonging the inevitible...

And isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Paying Mike and a replacement (1 year) is the cost associated when a mistake is made. Its the cost of doing business. Take your loss, take a step back to move two steps forward.

It won't be Dolans first time. And trust when we are actually hitting our potential and rank tops in the relevant categories...

Over-paying won't matter.

Its just 1 year of over-paying (2 coaches), or possibly thwarting 4 years of wheeling and dealing in 1 year. What's better?
 

KBlack25

Starter
Do you break-up with your girl when you find out she's cheating?

-or-

Do you wait until you find a new one first?

This analogy fails b/c you don't need a new girlfriend, you DO necessarily need a new coach.

Red said:
Keeping an overpaid non-essential employee around because there is no clear replacement is just prolonging the inevitible...

And isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Paying Mike and a replacement (1 year) is the cost associated when a mistake is made. Its the cost of doing business. Take your loss, take a step back to move two steps forward.

It won't be Dolans first time. And trust when we are actually hitting our potential and rank tops in the relevant categories...

Over-paying won't matter.

Its just 1 year of over-paying (2 coaches), or possibly thwarting 4 years of wheeling and dealing in 1 year. What's better?

You talk about paying a replacement for one year...who are we going to get for one year to replace D'Antoni, who is willing to sign on, take the heat of the NY press, accept the high expectations of having Amar'e and Carmelo and Billups on your starting roster, in the biggest NBA market, for ONE year at low cost? DOLAN, not MDA, would be doing this team a serious disservice if he DIDN'T go after Phil Jackson next year...and if he doesn't we are in a lot bigger trouble than "Who is on the payroll" and "Who is the coach".

The fact is - it feels like you are blaming D'Antoni for him not being fired...This is on DOLAN, who has made it pretty clear to everyone much more in the know about the team than you or I that he does not want to pay two head coaches with a lockout looming. You are mad at the wrong party, in my opinion.

If I told you we could wait this year out with MDA to throw big money at Jackson or find a replacement from the pool of replacement-level coaches out there, or start this year with a replacement-level coach...why not wait out the year, especially if there is a chance no basketball is played at all? Any coach we get will be available next year AND next year we can gun for Jackson, on the 40th anniversary of this team's last title win.
 
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Red

TYPE-A
This analogy fails b/c you don't need a new girlfriend, you DO necessarily need a new coach.



You talk about paying a replacement for one year...who are we going to get for one year to replace D'Antoni, who is willing to sign on, take the heat of the NY press, accept the high expectations of having Amar'e and Carmelo and Billups on your starting roster, in the biggest NBA market, for ONE year at low cost? DOLAN, not MDA, would be doing this team a serious disservice if he DIDN'T go after Phil Jackson next year...and if he doesn't we are in a lot bigger trouble than "Who is on the payroll" and "Who is the coach".

The fact is - it feels like you are blaming D'Antoni for him not being fired...This is on DOLAN, who has made it pretty clear to everyone much more in the know about the team than you or I that he does not want to pay two head coaches with a lockout looming. You are mad at the wrong party, in my opinion.

If I told you we could wait this year out with MDA to throw big money at Jackson or find a replacement from the pool of replacement-level coaches out there, or start this year with a replacement-level coach...why not wait out the year, especially if there is a chance no basketball is played at all? Any coach we get will be available next year AND next year we can gun for Jackson, on the 40th anniversary of this team's last title win.


Notice how you didn't answer the question, which is ok because the answeris clear, but more importantly it illustrates the point...

HAVING A REPLACEMENT is INDEPENDENT of making moves that are beneficial to the team.

In your response... you clearly intimate something that is not present in reality, that being...

THERE IS NO GAURANTEE WHO EXACTLY IS BETTER. Thus there is NO argument as to why a move should not be made, because NO TEAM EVER has ANY gaurantee that a new coach is better.

IN reality, a decision based on philosophy, outlook, planning and execution and the probabilities of such, is what goes into SPECULATING who is the best fit- NOT figuring who financially fits the bill.

To James Billionaire Dolan, "money ain't-a-thing".

Yes we would ONLY be responsible for paying two seperate coaches FOR ONE YEAR, because obviously MDA would be gone after that. NOT that we rent a coach for one year.

I think you knew exactly what I was saying. Then again for some reason you feel it's better to continue down an already proven bad road INSTEAD of cutting your losses...


With the, all too often, manufactured excuse that some how the "unknown" factor will miraculously disappear once we are a year removed and D'Antoni is gone.

Newflash*** its the "unknown" it will never change. No matter the circumstance, it will remain the "unknown" and is a moot point.

And again, Mike won't be the first coach to be paid and not be an active employee, its happened many times with players and coaches. By waiting for NOTHING to happen, in hopes that a clear known commodity will surface, and by rather sacrificing another year instead of paying extra money and cutting losses

Really is contrary to our goals, non-business savvy, and again counter-intuitive and miscalculating when the reason is there currently isn't a known coach available. The known coaches just like the pipe dream perfect D'Antoni roster is a mythical theoretical falesy.

I'm not buying it, or your excuses for why we will struggle and fall short of our goals before we even hit the battle field. That's not me. I don't do excuses and certainly don't entertain a defeatist attitude. I find logic and reason and pull the trigger considering a pattern has been established that only pulling the trigger will resolve.

Now is the opportunity. Extra time to gel and become familiar while realizing Stat and Melo won't exist forever. Now is the time, and realize one year of paying MDA and another coach means absolutely nothing.

That's not even a valid excuse.

And btw, I've already explained why its necessary to make a distinction between "blame" and realizing what's best for the organization.
 
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We are going to need these things in exact order:

A) A new coach that teaches & preaches defense first and foremost. That will also recognize players strengths and utilizes those strengths...

B) Some bangers & shot blockers. 6ft 11 inches or more. As many as we can get our hands on

C) A better SG. Unless Landry develops a catch and shoot jumper and a pull up jumper

D) A healthy Billups or CP3.

Before we can even think about winning a chip we need these things at minimum. It doesnt make sense upgrading the roster unless step A is taken first. We've debated and rehashed the reasons why until we're all blue in the face. Trust me on this fellas if these things dont happen we arent winning a chip ever.

If we wait and do these things next year we may be too late...
 

ChrisN7

Benchwarmer
In honesty, I have nothing against D'Antoni. He's had what 3 seasons as coach of the Knicks and only last season was in a position to be competitive. However there are some major deficiencies in his performance as coach. I have always thought his rotation was way too shallow. Jordan Hill, IMO, showed glimpses of productivity but he was not given nearly enough oppertunities before being traded. Thats just one example of how D'Antoni got something wrong as head coach. Also his apparent reluctance to change the system, or emphasise more on defense is frustrating, seeing leads evaporate turning winning positions to losses.

That said, I would have thought that if he was going to be fired he would have been pretty soon after game 4 of the playoffs this year. As it is, I think he will be head coach for the last year of his contract and that will be that, and as long as D'Antoni is the head coach he will have my support.
 
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