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Thread: After watching Heat.... One thing I do like about Dantonii......

  1. #16
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    My point is that Scott Brooks, Doc Rivers, etc are offensive coaches just with great defensive players, I doubt our defense would be as bad if we had players like KG, Chandler, Perkins, Rondo, Sefolosha, I could go on. They also have had excellent defensive assistant coaches (Tom Thibbs, Ron Adams) and people expect us to be a top 10 defensive team with our current roster and Herb Williams as our "Defensive" assistant coach? OKC, Dallas, and Boston weren't a great defensive team before Chandler, KG, Tom Thibbs, Ron Adams came. Its unfair to judge MDA when we had an incomplete roster and our best defender (Azubuike) didn't recover like he was supposed to.
    So when do you think it's fair to judge MDA? After next season if we don't win a championship or at least get to the 2nd round, is it fair to say he's not the coach that can lead us to where we need to go? Or does he need 2 more top 15 players on the roster to fairly judge him as an NBA coach?

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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    So when do you think it's fair to judge MDA? After next season if we don't win a championship or at least get to the 2nd round, is it fair to say he's not the coach that can lead us to where we need to go? Or does he need 2 more top 15 players on the roster to fairly judge him as an NBA coach?
    There might not even be a season next year, why pay a new coach when their might not even be a season? MDA is gone after next season if there even is one, and to be honest there isn't even any coaches available that are better than MDA.

    Jerry Sloan- too old
    JVG- unlikely
    Mark Jackson- no coaching experience at all

    and I love how some of you guys want Rick Adelman when his defense is just as bad as MDA's.

    2012 is when there will be better coaches available.

  3. #18
    Member ducktales17's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    So let me get this straight. Since 1946 in the history of the league you can't name me 1 team that's ever won an NBA title relying on jumpshooting & not being able to play good defense, but if Dallas were to win it this year my theory gets shot to ****? Ok, if you say so.
    your theory went to **** the second it came from your mind

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    So let me get this straight. Since 1946 in the history of the league you can't name me 1 team that's ever won an NBA title relying on jumpshooting & not being able to play good defense, but if Dallas were to win it this year my theory gets shot to ****? Ok, if you say so.
    Theory? Dude thats like saying what team who can't shoot the ball or rebound ever won? Its an obvious point and no one is claiming that any team would. That includes Dallas who while relies on jump shooting does a lot more including play defense.

    What insightful theory will be next? No team can win with just 4 players on the floor?

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    My point is that Scott Brooks, Doc Rivers, etc are offensive coaches just with great defensive players, I doubt our defense would be as bad if we had players like KG, Chandler, Perkins, Rondo, Sefolosha, I could go on. They also have had excellent defensive assistant coaches (Tom Thibbs, Ron Adams) and people expect us to be a top 10 defensive team with our current roster and Herb Williams as our "Defensive" assistant coach? OKC, Dallas, and Boston weren't a great defensive team before Chandler, KG, Tom Thibbs, Ron Adams came. Its unfair to judge MDA when we had an incomplete roster and our best defender (Azubuike) didn't recover like he was supposed to.
    Sounds good...

    Except

    1. D'antoni has NEVER coached a top 10 defensive team, complete with Assistants/Players or NOT.

    Try again, you fail.

    2. No one expects us to be a top 10 defensive team because we all know #1 (see above)

    Way to spin it.

    3. Doc's team didn't have defensive players as you say. Besides Garnot, Rondo was a rookie, Pierce and Alan weren't stalwarts. The coaching and scheme did that.

    Stop making excuses that have no basis. Make the distinction between blame and forecasting what's best for the team.

    Are you a Knick fan or D'Antoni fan?

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Sounds good...

    Except

    1. D'antoni has NEVER coached a top 10 defensive team, complete with Assistants/Players or NOT.

    Try again, you fail.

    2. No one expects us to be a top 10 defensive team because we all know #1 (see above)

    Way to spin it.

    3. Doc's team didn't have defensive players as you say. Besides Garnot, Rondo was a rookie, Pierce and Alan weren't stalwarts. The coaching and scheme did that.

    Stop making excuses that have no basis. Make the distinction between blame and forecasting what's best for the team.

    Are you a Knick fan or D'Antoni fan?
    So Tony Allen, James Posey, and Kendrick Perkins are bad defenders right? Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are not bad defenders at all, the Celtics had a 24-58 record the season before Garnett and Allen came and Celtic fans wanted Doc's head off. And Rondo was a good defender since college actually. You say MDA never had a top 10 defensive team but Doc Rivers never had one either before Garnett and Allen came.

    Try again, you fail.

  7. #22
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    So Tony Allen, James Posey, and Kendrick Perkins are bad defenders right? Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are not bad defenders at all, the Celtics had a 24-58 record the season before Garnett and Allen came and Celtic fans wanted Doc's head off. And Rondo was a good defender since college actually.

    Try again, you fail.
    So it was Allan, Posey, and Perkins that made up their great defense?

    Ok, using that assertion, we can assume the coach had a say in their acquisition, playing time, and usage, correct? And it was the coach who hires his assistants right? Let's chalk that one up to Doc over D'Antoni- I guess his approach is just better. He seems to know what he's doing. He got these "great" defenders, and won a championship with his "great" assistants implementing both his offensive ideas combined with his assistants input. Wish we could say the same about D'Antoni, but we can't.

    Guess we'll come up with illogical reasons why he failed to do the same like forgetting he had just as mush chance and players to do so but didn't.

    Regardless of what the Boston Fans wanted, Doc was a former coach of the year who I'd bet not one fan of Boston wants gone. Sh*t, I'd bet every other team DOES want him gone so he could be theirs- ya think they see D'Antoni the same? Don't kid yourself.

    In your statement you said

    My point is that Scott Brooks, Doc Rivers, etc are offensive coaches just with great defensive players
    and I'm saying no one besides Garnot was "great" until they were influenced by a "great" coach and a proven system. That goes for Pierce, Alan, etc...

    it's an exaggeration on your part.

    Then this...

    They also have had excellent defensive assistant coaches (Tom Thibbs, Ron Adams)
    makes no sense as I'm sure as a D'Antoni supporter you are well aware that he chose his brother as a defensive assistant and denied other more proven coaching help. Which by the way IF he were good at that (defense), it wouldn't have been an issue, now would it?

    then...

    and people expect us to be a top 10 defensive team with our current roster and Herb Williams as our "Defensive" assistant coach?
    Who? Who said they expect us to be a top 10 defensive team with our current roster?

    and who decides to keep Herb Williams as an assistant?

    OKC, Dallas, and Boston weren't a great defensive team before Chandler, KG, Tom Thibbs, Ron Adams came.
    There you go exaggerating again with that word "great". But now let's take a look at this assertion... keep in mind I CAN MAKE A DISTINCTION AS TO WHO'S TO BLAME -vs- why its best to move on

    As you say "before Chandler, KG, etc..."

    Well Chandler and KG are bigs right? And who exactly has been known recently and historically for not playing bigs (DNP's), not valuing bigs (Skipped on them in drafts and refused to sign them above shooters), playing smaller players out of position (Jared Jaffries, STAT, Chandler, on and on...)?

    Yep, you get a two for one for this one! Because it's the same guy that rather bounce on his 60 win team instead of acquiescing and bringing in an assistant. The same one who when asked what he felt about adding an assistant said "... of course that implies we don't know what the hell we are doing".

    and finally...

    Its unfair to judge MDA when we had an incomplete roster and our best defender (Azubuike) didn't recover like he was supposed to.
    If by judge you mean, realize he can't get it done defensively... then when considering he has never been above middle of the pack ANYTIME in his career, and runs a style not conducive to defensive success as we've witnessed

    then yeah, what's the issue?

    Should we not realize the truth? Or should we realize the truth, but then deceive ourselves by coming up with excuses?

    You say MDA never had a top 10 defensive team but Doc Rivers never had one either before Garnett and Allen came.
    Yet coach Rivers has already won a championship and been to two. This after leading the league in winning percentage, and later this year fully exposing D'Antoni and summarily out-coaching him. And to be fair, you MUST also compare D'Antoni's OTHER teams which included Shawn Marion, STAT, Shaq and more- More than capable defenders, and still was presented with an ultimatum.

    Again, that assertion about "the fans wanted him gone" too is an exaggeration. It was the media and one person in particular who disagreed with his style.

    After spending a year working as a commentator for the NBA on ABC (calling the 2004 Finals with Al Michaels), he took over the Boston Celtics coaching position in 2004. During his first years with the Celtics, he was criticized by many in the media for his coaching style, most vociferously by ESPN's Bill Simmons, who in 2006 publicly called for Rivers to be fired in his columns.
    As a result of the Celtics' 10993 victory over the New York Knicks on January 21, 2008, Rivers, as the coach of the team with the best winning percentage in the Eastern Conference, earned the honor to coach the East for the 2008 NBA All-Star Game in New Orleans.[2] On June 17, 2008, Rivers won his first NBA Championship as a head coach
    So in contrast to D'Antoni, Doc has achieved more and demonstrated the ability to make the proper decisions to benefit the organization. He has missed the playoffs once in ORL before he got fired. Ya think they may regret that?

    Rivers began his coaching career with the Orlando Magic in 1999, where he coached for more than four NBA seasons. Rivers won the Coach of the Year award in 2000 after his first year with the Magic. That season, he led the team that was picked to finish last in the league to a near playoff berth. He made the post-season in his next three years as coach, but was fired in 2003 after a disastrous start to the season.
    I don't hear or see you calling Doc a genius. All I see is your poor attempts to vilify D'Antoni with an irrational comparison to someone who proves the opposite point. Doc is better than D'Antoni.

    Fail.

  8. #23
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Red - just in terms of the article you posted and the statement that fans didn't want Doc gone:

    The evidence you gave doesn't show that the fans didn't want him gone...it only serves to show that the media and one member in particular DID. You are arguing a fallacy there and you might want to clear it up, because I guarantee his response will deal with this obvious flaw.

    Also...I don't think that Orlando regrets the decision to fire Doc as they made the NBA Finals without him...

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    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    So it was Allan, Posey, and Perkins that made up their great defense?

    Ok, using that assertion, we can assume the coach had a say in their acquisition, playing time, and usage, correct?
    Do you really think that if MDA had either one of those players that he wouldn't play them?

    And it was the coach who hires his assistants right? Let's chalk that one up to Doc over D'Antoni- I guess his approach is just better. He seems to know what he's doing. He got these "great" defenders, and won a championship with his "great" assistants implementing both his offensive ideas combined with his assistants input. Wish we could say the same about D'Antoni, but we can't.
    You still have failed to realize my point, if Doc Rivers can succeed with a defensive assistant then why can't MDA?

    Regardless of what the Boston Fans wanted, Doc was a former coach of the year who I'd bet not one fan of Boston wants gone. Sh*t, I'd bet every other team DOES want him gone so he could be theirs- ya think they see D'Antoni the same? Don't kid yourself.
    MDA is a former coach of the year as well and I remember that Celtic fans wanted Doc Rivers fired just as much as we want MDA fired.

    makes no sense as I'm sure as a D'Antoni supporter you are well aware that he chose his brother as a defensive assistant and denied other more proven coaching help.
    How do you know that? Do you work for the Knicks organization? Name a good defensive assistant that was available and don't say Lawrence Frank or Ron Adams because they were already Chicago/Boston bound. I'm waiting....


    Who? Who said they expect us to be a top 10 defensive team with our current roster?
    Basically every MDA hater, they all complain about having bad defense when we have no one on this team that is a good defender other than TD or Azubuike (Who was an great defender when he was with GSW but he did not play a single game all season)

    As you say "before Chandler, KG, etc..."

    Well Chandler and KG are bigs right? And who exactly has been known recently and historically for not playing bigs (DNP's), not valuing bigs (Skipped on them in drafts and refused to sign them above shooters), playing smaller players out of position (Jared Jaffries, STAT, Chandler, on and on...)?
    Out of all of the conspiracies that MDA bashers create this is by far my favorite. Your statement is so flawed, what bigs has MDA had that he hasn't played? Mosgov, Anthony Randolph are you ****ing kidding me? He has played Shaq, Kurt Thomas, Turiaf so how has he been known historically for not playing bigs? Do you really think that if we had Deandre, Tyson, or Dalembert that MDA wouldn't play them? If you really think that then your smoking.

    Yet coach Rivers has already won a championship and been to two. This after leading the league in winning percentage, and later this year fully exposing D'Antoni and summarily out-coaching him. And to be fair, you MUST also compare D'Antoni's OTHER teams which included Shawn Marion, STAT, Shaq and more- More than capable defenders, and still was presented with an ultimatum.
    Are you really using a washed up Shaq as one of MDA's best defenders? That just proves my point.

    MEGAFAIL

    Last edited by AmareForPresident; May 25, 2011 at 20:52.

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    Originally Posted by ducktales17
    your theory went to **** the second it came from your mind
    Please put me on ignore if that's the extent of your debating skills, thanks.

  11. #26
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Theory? Dude thats like saying what team who can't shoot the ball or rebound ever won? Its an obvious point and no one is claiming that any team would. That includes Dallas who while relies on jump shooting does a lot more including play defense.

    What insightful theory will be next? No team can win with just 4 players on the floor?
    No need for the backhanded sarcasm, I'm not representing my point as any groundbreaking theory here. Someone called me out for saying I can't think of 1 team that's ever won a title relying on jumpshooting with weak defense. No kidding this is not groundbreaking news, it's exactly my point. How far do you guys think investing our future on a coach who's track record has been coaching teams that rely on high volume of shooting with very little emphasis on playing defense is going to take us? What the hell are we setting our sights on at this point? Making it past the 1st round of the playoffs & giving the fans some "ooh & ah" moments over the course of the season, or striving to actually win an NBA championship? I don't believe following a strategy that nets 1 team in ready recollection an NBA championship in the history of the league is the way to go (if Dallas even wins it this year). Maybe one of you basketball historians can come up with some examples but I can't think of a single one. I think we need a coach who's fundamental strategy is centered on playing defense first & running an offense from the inside-out. That has been a tried & true proven strategy to win championships over the course of the league's history. Pretty much basketball 101.

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    Originally Posted by abcd
    Mike Antoni has to go. He is stubborn and unwilling to compromise.

    In all his years of coaching, I have never seen him incorporate defense into his philosophy.

    Getting a defensive minded assistant is not going to do anything.

    Do you think Antoni listens to what Herb Williams, Phil Webber, or Dan Antoni have to say? Nope. And he's been with those guys for three years. So it's even less likely he would listen to an Assistant he's never worked with.
    First of all, everything you said there is complete 100% false, but I have to point out the most idiotic part. Not paying attention to his brother? Come on.

  13. #28
    Member ducktales17's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Please put me on ignore if that's the extent of your debating skills, thanks.
    **** "debating skills" lol.

    That was me shooting machine guns at your comment. I just ended **** with that move. Game over. There's not even a way you can 1 up me.

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    Originally Posted by ducktales17
    **** "debating skills" lol.

    That was me shooting machine guns at your comment. I just ended **** with that move. Game over. There's not even a way you can 1 up me.


    Victory is mine.

  15. #30
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    Do you really think that if MDA had either one of those players that he wouldn't play them?

    You still have failed to realize my point, if Doc Rivers can succeed with a defensive assistant then why can't MDA?

    MDA is a former coach of the year as well and I remember that Celtic fans wanted Doc Rivers fired just as much as we want MDA fired.

    How do you know that? Do you work for the Knicks organization? Name a good defensive assistant that was available and don't say Lawrence Frank or Ron Adams because they were already Chicago/Boston bound. I'm waiting....


    Basically every MDA hater, they all complain about having bad defense when we have no one on this team that is a good defender other than TD or Azubuike (Who was an great defender when he was with GSW but he did not play a single game all season)

    Out of all of the conspiracies that MDA bashers create this is by far my favorite. Your statement is so flawed, what bigs has MDA had that he hasn't played? Mosgov, Anthony Randolph are you ****ing kidding me? He has played Shaq, Kurt Thomas, Turiaf so how has he been known historically for not playing bigs? Do you really think that if we had Deandre, Tyson, or Dalembert that MDA wouldn't play them? If you really think that then your smoking.

    Are you really using a washed up Shaq as one of MDA's best defenders? That just proves my point.

    MEGAFAIL

    I got your point. Better players = better defense.

    To that I pointed to the many players he has had over his career. You did what spin doc's do... you picked 1 out of how many? And tried to excuse that 1 (Shaq) by stating he was "washed up". Don't you see the pattern here. You are clearly biased and subjective.

    Every counter point stated, you responded by coming up with excuses, exaggerating, and pulling a straw man argument. The fact remains IF you assert its the players, which by the way you qualify by adding the assistants are just as culpabale, then as an objective person you have to consider he had those types of players and failed to excel. Period. That is not a valid excuse, just a convienent one.

    Why wouldn't Mike be better with assistants?

    He may or may not be, who knows? The point is he's also had ample opportunity to prove so and HE DECIDED not to. Now if you state other teams and coaches were better by using their assistants, than we can conclude Mike must not be as good, because he delined and went with his personal staff instead.

    As far as players are concerned, bigs in particular.

    Not only has Mike been unable to use his bigs effectively except for STAT which it can be argued so did Gentry, it is documented that many serviceable bigs don't fit his mold. This trickles down to unwarranted DNP's in spite of what's best for the team (and others besides bigs have experienced this- some defensive oriented players). It leads to passing them over in drafts, trading them, and the miscalculation moves such as playing the players he's had out of position. Do I have to name them?

    Bottom line is there is no argument or excuse you can come up with that trumps historical occurrence. All you have is wishful thinking and that's not what's best for this team. Its another unecessary risk to think things will be so different with a tweak here and there. That's because this issue goes too deep to be remedied by a subtle move.

    And about conspiring...

    Why would a fan conspire to find reasons to remove a coach? Its counterintuitive and illogical.

    To be honest with a valid big we may excel, even using Mike's flawed apprach because we do have talent. We could easily be a top four seed next year with our core 3 of CB, Stat, & Melo. But you already have so many bulit in excuses that if we fail next year it can never be attributed to the one most responsible.

    It'll be
    *we are still incomplete
    *Mike is a lame duck and worried
    *we need cp3
    *its Herb Williams
    *who could ask for more than a playoff appearence
    *when we get D12 things will be different
    *he preaches no one listens
    *if we could just run the pick and roll
    *Billups is too old
    *Landry is still learning
    *Douglas is on the final year of his contract


    Everything but the coach.
    Last edited by Red; May 26, 2011 at 08:20.

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