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Thread: After watching Heat.... One thing I do like about Dantonii......

  1. #31
    ★The Floor General★ Knicks4Life_1985's Avatar
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    So I guess its safe to say the majority of the people here are still talking out they ass. Holla at me when the season starts I cant deal with 5 months of moronic comments.

  2. #32
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Red - just in terms of the article you posted and the statement that fans didn't want Doc gone:

    The evidence you gave doesn't show that the fans didn't want him gone...it only serves to show that the media and one member in particular DID. You are arguing a fallacy there and you might want to clear it up, because I guarantee his response will deal with this obvious flaw.

    Also...I don't think that Orlando regrets the decision to fire Doc as they made the NBA Finals without him...
    I just showed you where the media was mainly responsible for not supporting Doc early and it wasn't enough. Ok whatever, does it really matter what the fans wanted in the past?

    Are you somehow intimating that because some NY fans want Mike gone its comparable with Doc? And that because he got a chance Mike should also?

    On the surface, yeah many coaches visit the hot-seat now and then. Because some have changed the minds of the fans or media or were thought of differently until they proved themselves, means nothing. No one needed Doc to be successful after being questioned to prove that sometimes fans are fickle and wrong, that's obvious. It has happened many times.

    But if thas the best you supporters can come up with then that's sad. You try to compare Doc to Mike and what you come up with is;

    Not only is Doc better, achieved higher levels of success, but when it comes to the core issues of contention similar between him and D'Antoni namely: defense, assistants, player acquisition, usage, in game strategy... basically coaching!

    What's the conclusion? Doc is better. Comparson fails to show any counter point.

    All it does is further provide excuses. Don't have the players yet HE DID. Don't have the assistants yet he shunned them. Didn't have a chance yet has had ample oportunity. Played with defenders yet failed to be a force in the upper echelon.

    Until we start arguing menial sh*t. Well the "fans" wanted Doc fired? Shaq was old? Its Herb Williams. Etc... none of this is valid in terms of providing a counter argument to why D'Antoni is limited and mainly responsible for unsuccessful defense.

    And if you are not one to make excuses then answer this:

    During D'Antoni's PEAK in PHX- When he had HIS BEST LINE-UP

    Why were his teams never umongst the leaders in defense? Not why didn't he win. What was the deal with the defense?

    Why was bringing in an assistant even an issue?

    I eagerly anticipate your objective response.
    Last edited by Red; May 26, 2011 at 08:25.

  3. #33
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Wow Red...way to turn a comment about the fact that your proof did not support your hypothesis into a full-blown argument.

    I didn't say anything, but sometimes you (and others) quote things on this board that do no support your proposition and use it as evidence. You have your opinion, but it was not backed up by the facts you presented in that instance. That's all I said.

    You are the one who wants to start an argument.

  4. #34
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    I got your point. Better players = better defense.

    To that I pointed to the many players he has had over his career. You did what spin doc's do... you picked 1 out of how many? And tried to excuse that 1 (Shaq) by stating he was "washed up". Don't you see the pattern here. You are clearly biased and subjective.

    Every counter point stated, you responded by coming up with excuses, exaggerating, and pulling a straw man argument. The fact remains IF you assert its the players, which by the way you qualify by adding the assistants are just as culpabale, then as an objective person you have to consider he had those types of players and failed to excel. Period. That is not a valid excuse, just a convienent one.

    Why wouldn't Mike be better with assistants?

    He may or may not be, who knows? The point is he's also had ample opportunity to prove so and HE DECIDED not to. Now if you state other teams and coaches were better by using their assistants, than we can conclude Mike must not be as good, because he delined and went with his personal staff instead.

    As far as players are concerned, bigs in particular.

    Not only has Mike been unable to use his bigs effectively except for STAT which it can be argued so did Gentry, it is documented that many serviceable bigs don't fit his mold. This trickles down to unwarranted DNP's in spite of what's best for the team (and others besides bigs have experienced this- some defensive oriented players). It leads to passing them over in drafts, trading them, and the miscalculation moves such as playing the players he's had out of position. Do I have to name them?

    Bottom line is there is no argument or excuse you can come up with that trumps historical occurrence. All you have is wishful thinking and that's not what's best for this team. Its another unecessary risk to think things will be so different with a tweak here and there. That's because this issue goes too deep to be remedied by a subtle move.

    And about conspiring...

    Why would a fan conspire to find reasons to remove a coach? Its counterintuitive and illogical.

    To be honest with a valid big we may excel, even using Mike's flawed apprach because we do have talent. We could easily be a top four seed next year with our core 3 of CB, Stat, & Melo. But you already have so many bulit in excuses that if we fail next year it can never be attributed to the one most responsible.

    It'll be
    *we are still incomplete
    *Mike is a lame duck and worried
    *we need cp3
    *its Herb Williams
    *who could ask for more than a playoff appearence
    *when we get D12 things will be different
    *he preaches no one listens
    *if we could just run the pick and roll
    *Billups is too old
    *Landry is still learning
    *Douglas is on the final year of his contract


    Everything but the coach.
    This argument will never end.....


    Me and Kblack have told you guys time and time again that it would be stupid to fire MDA right now but you I guess you guys just enjoy bashing MDA. Here is my previous post on why we shouldn't fire MDA.

    There might not even be a season next year, why pay a new coach when their might not even be a season? MDA is gone after next season if there even is one, and to be honest there isn't even any coaches available that are better than MDA.

    Jerry Sloan- too old
    JVG- unlikely
    Mark Jackson- no coaching experience at all

    and I love how some of you guys want Rick Adelman when his defense is just as bad as MDA's.

    2012 is when there will be better coaches available.
    Last edited by AmareForPresident; May 26, 2011 at 15:15.

  5. #35
    Superstar welcometonycity's Avatar
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    I gave you 1 star was poppin rookie. You run your mouth too much I'm tired of logging in and seein your vaginal comments. Earn yourself some credibility on this site before you run your mouth youngin. Before you respond know who you ****kin wit you bird as5 ni9ga.

  6. #36
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Sounds good...

    Except

    1. D'antoni has NEVER coached a top 10 defensive team, complete with Assistants/Players or NOT.

    Try again, you fail.

    2. No one expects us to be a top 10 defensive team because we all know #1 (see above)

    Way to spin it.

    3. Doc's team didn't have defensive players as you say. Besides Garnot, Rondo was a rookie, Pierce and Alan weren't stalwarts. The coaching and scheme did that.

    Stop making excuses that have no basis. Make the distinction between blame and forecasting what's best for the team.

    Are you a Knick fan or D'Antoni fan?
    Above is my original post. For a lolli-pop, please show us where I said to fire D'Antoni.

    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    This argument will never end.....


    Me and Kblack have told you guys time and time again that it would be stupid to fire MDA right now but you I guess you guys just enjoy bashing MDA. Here is my previous post on why we shouldn't fire MDA.
    Again you're desperate. You refuse to acknowledge your inability to accept facts. We all see you trying so hard to exhibit your support for D'Antoni.

    Your lame tactics include:

    *Exaggeration
    *Deflection
    *Misinterpretation
    *Straw man arguments
    *Diversion

    Now this is about firing or not D'Antoni? Word?

    I thought it was you trying to vilify Mike by parsing Doc's history into an argument, which when looked at objectively was incorrect.

    It was full of conjecture and excuse. And for the last time every point you have regurgetated being "its the players" is weak. I and every other non-casual fan on this sight has proven how lame an short-sighted your argument is. Ho biased your assement is. You conveniently leave out historic facts and exaggerate others to fit your stance.

    You keep arguing why you think Mike should stay even when not prompted but then try and say it's an argument constantly revisited. That's contradictary.

    And as much as you or Black come up with excuses why not to fire Mike, we have rebutted them and gave u reasons why its what's best for the team, you refuse to understand because your love has blinded you.

    And instead of parsing Doc in your argument and looking foolish, you should be asking yourself

    "If I say Mike should stay because he didn't have a defensive team to do better and it's basically a given that he won't be here"

    Then what's the difference in getting rid of him then vs now?

    Because Dolan doesn't want to pay extra for success? Really?

    So it's better to squeeze another year out of Mike knowing he won't be here to avoid paying him and another even if another is a better fit?

    I'm way past firing Mike because if the owner and FO can't see something so obvious then winning must mean more t me than them. Its their team and their choice. I want to win, so to suggest spending more of a billionaires money is nothing to me.

    I understand its something to them. I understand they will still be rich and have high paying jobs championship or not, so I don't expect them to care as much. And that's constantly reflected in their choices. Its no surprise to me.

    But please don't try and pull the wool over our eyes by downplaying doc's success and comparing his career choices and accumen to D'Antoni as if you can convince us different of what our eyes see.

    The only way Mike can be successful is by NOT being Mike.

    And in that case I still get what I want.

    We have talent and could get and use more. There is still luck. We have already broached the defensive assistant subject with him. We still haven't resigned him and would rather him be a lame duck.

    Who knows? A twisted ankle by the opposition, a new assistant to get the D going, a surprise player here and there, and maybe we make a run next year. Its possible. Problem is given the myriad of excuses you and others have provided over the years it just isn't probable with Mike. Not impossible, nor probable.

    I guess if we luck out and overcome all the 100's of excuses you and the supporters have provided then we wont have this conversation. Maybe we can actually hit those 30 threes taken per game and a player will trip every now and again ashe prances his way through our undersized ineffective defense in the playoffs and that's how we'l win.

    Maybe CP3 and D12 will conspire to take less and play here by the trading deadlin, because everyone will take less to play with them and they know they have to team up with stars.

    Maybe Fields won't avg 1.7 points in the playoffs and a Shaq like player will fall to us at 17. Then the real defensive minded D'Antoni will surface and we all are happy.

    Maybe Mike will figure out how to save timeouts, foul when he has one left, and use his genius offensive mind to allow Stat to get the rock within seven straight possessions down the stretch.

    Maybe Mike will figure out Antony Randolph is better than Jared Jeffries. And having Brook Lopez and Bradon Jennings is better than Danilo Gallinari and Chris Duhon. Maybe he'll realize doing what's best for the team is better than not playing a player for his personal vendettas.

    Who knows?

  7. #37
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ducktales17
    To give Dantoni some credit, he hasn't had close to the defensive players that OKC has. Look at our roster..... It's just an overall ****ty defensive roster.

    You could argue that Dantoni never had the defensive roster because he doesn't coach it. I'd understand that, but even in Phoenix he didn't have the defensive players OKC has now.
    I agree w the basic premise of this thread. ;-)

    Originally Posted by Red
    Above is my original post. For a lolli-pop, please show us where I said to fire D'Antoni.



    Again you're desperate. You refuse to acknowledge your inability to accept facts. We all see you trying so hard to exhibit your support for D'Antoni.

    Your lame tactics include:

    *Exaggeration
    *Deflection
    *Misinterpretation
    *Straw man arguments
    *Diversion

    Now this is about firing or not D'Antoni? Word?

    I thought it was you trying to vilify Mike by parsing Doc's history into an argument, which when looked at objectively was incorrect.

    It was full of conjecture and excuse. And for the last time every point you have regurgetated being "its the players" is weak. I and every other non-casual fan on this sight has proven how lame an short-sighted your argument is. Ho biased your assement is. You conveniently leave out historic facts and exaggerate others to fit your stance.

    You keep arguing why you think Mike should stay even when not prompted but then try and say it's an argument constantly revisited. That's contradictary.

    And as much as you or Black come up with excuses why not to fire Mike, we have rebutted them and gave u reasons why its what's best for the team, you refuse to understand because your love has blinded you.

    And instead of parsing Doc in your argument and looking foolish, you should be asking yourself

    "If I say Mike should stay because he didn't have a defensive team to do better and it's basically a given that he won't be here"

    Then what's the difference in getting rid of him then vs now?

    Because Dolan doesn't want to pay extra for success? Really?

    So it's better to squeeze another year out of Mike knowing he won't be here to avoid paying him and another even if another is a better fit?

    I'm way past firing Mike because if the owner and FO can't see something so obvious then winning must mean more t me than them. Its their team and their choice. I want to win, so to suggest spending more of a billionaires money is nothing to me.

    I understand its something to them. I understand they will still be rich and have high paying jobs championship or not, so I don't expect them to care as much. And that's constantly reflected in their choices. Its no surprise to me.

    But please don't try and pull the wool over our eyes by downplaying doc's success and comparing his career choices and accumen to D'Antoni as if you can convince us different of what our eyes see.

    The only way Mike can be successful is by NOT being Mike.

    And in that case I still get what I want.

    We have talent and could get and use more. There is still luck. We have already broached the defensive assistant subject with him. We still haven't resigned him and would rather him be a lame duck.

    Who knows? A twisted ankle by the opposition, a new assistant to get the D going, a surprise player here and there, and maybe we make a run next year. Its possible. Problem is given the myriad of excuses you and others have provided over the years it just isn't probable with Mike. Not impossible, nor probable.

    I guess if we luck out and overcome all the 100's of excuses you and the supporters have provided then we wont have this conversation. Maybe we can actually hit those 30 threes taken per game and a player will trip every now and again ashe prances his way through our undersized ineffective defense in the playoffs and that's how we'l win.

    Maybe CP3 and D12 will conspire to take less and play here by the trading deadlin, because everyone will take less to play with them and they know they have to team up with stars.

    Maybe Fields won't avg 1.7 points in the playoffs and a Shaq like player will fall to us at 17. Then the real defensive minded D'Antoni will surface and we all are happy.

    Maybe Mike will figure out how to save timeouts, foul when he has one left, and use his genius offensive mind to allow Stat to get the rock within seven straight possessions down the stretch.

    Maybe Mike will figure out Antony Randolph is better than Jared Jeffries. And having Brook Lopez and Bradon Jennings is better than Danilo Gallinari and Chris Duhon. Maybe he'll realize doing what's best for the team is better than not playing a player for his personal vendettas.

    Who knows?
    Do you realize how exhausting you are at this point?

    Don't you think having better defenders would help this team and MDA atleast marginally??

    Wouldn't not having poor defenders at his most integral positions, ie PG and PF, have helped MDA to climb higher than the top 15 in d efficiency in Phoenix?

    Common Red.. You're smart enough to know that if your best players are not two-way players your basically doomed from having a team that is top-ten in defensive efficiency.

    And... news flash: not having solid defensive players is not an excuse. It's a real issue that will need to be addressed.

    You need to have guys w the willingness and skill to execute. It cannot be done thru scheming and pleading alone sir.., although MDA does his fair share of both, often ineptly re: defense, or atleast that's how it appears on the surface..

    If this team had Bosh instead of Amare and Lebron or Pierce instead of Melo, wouldn't we be a more efficient team defensively?? Sadly, history has repeated itself. Our best two players are merely average defensively at the moment. All the more reason why our next big acquisition needs to be solid to great both ways.

    We need a defensive assistant. We also need serviceable bigs that fit into this system. We also need a great two-way player like Paul or Howard and to acquire better defensive players via trade, draft or FA.

    I think Dalembert would really help us. I think MDA would definitely play him also. No question. That's another thing, can you please stop saying MDA doesnt play bigs. He played his best bigs all season: Turiaf, Jeffries and Amare, Sheldon too. When Mozgov was ready for another look he played him too. Alright, he didn't play Randolph. But he's neither a smart player or a hardworker. He's a Nate Robinson type.., a gimick. A guy that puts up deceiving numbers on bad teams. Would Randolph start on any of the 16 playoff teams from this season? Would he get off the pine for any of them? He's not a disciplined, fundamentally sound player.. Not yet anyway. But you and others seem to know better than MDA. BS.

    You continue to overlook, disregard and minimize other pertinent factors that contribute to issues effecting the team. It's never about the players with you. Never. Why is that Red? Can you please atleast just answer this one question?

    Wake up!

    THE PLAYERS AND HOW THEY'RE ABLE TO EXECUTE ARE ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE COACH. The Lakers dynasty ending can show you that much, if your eyes and mind are open. Case and point: was Phil Jackson out coached? Or were his players outplayed/ executed?

    Now apply that same line of thinking to our team and how they performed in these playoffs.

    When you have players that are getting outmatched/ classed you might use a timeout when you shouldn't because your PLAYERS are stinking it up. Maybe getting the ball to the guy who hits game winners and can create shots for himself and others is also a good option in the forth. You could also give some credit to the other team and how those players are able to deny Amare the ball. Those Celtics players can defend.. Also Fields playing terribly by not keeping the D honest w knockdown shooting made it easier for the Celts to defend us. You simply can't have a top rotation player like Fields perform the way he did in the Playoffs. It made it way to easy for Boston. Or it could just all be D'antoni's fault..

    Also did Spoelstra all of a sudden become a great coach or is he benefiting from greatness. I suppose he's your next target for a Doc Rivers style man-coach crush?

    Seriously dude, when are you going to get this basic fact and incorporate it into your prognosis for our Knicks? You will fail at posting until you acknowledge your complete lack of comprehension of this fundamental aspect of the game of basketball.

    *Players*

    It's about having the best grouping of guys both ways..

    MDA is still a good coach. Lets get healthy and get a competitive team together and see how he does next season. I'm not at all sold that it will be his last w the Knicks.
    Last edited by ronoranina; May 26, 2011 at 22:53.

  8. #38
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    To be honest with a valid big we may excel, even using Mike's flawed apprach because we do have talent. We could easily be a top four seed next year with our core 3 of CB, Stat, & Melo. But you already have so many bulit in excuses that if we fail next year it can never be attributed to the one most responsible.

    It'll be
    *we are still incomplete
    *Mike is a lame duck and worried
    *we need cp3
    *its Herb Williams
    *who could ask for more than a playoff appearence
    *when we get D12 things will be different
    *he preaches no one listens
    *if we could just run the pick and roll
    *Billups is too old
    *Landry is still learning
    *Douglas is on the final year of his contract


    Everything but the coach.
    You forgot to include El Nino & Rush Limbaugh on your list.

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