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Thread: We're going to need Chris Paul if we want to get by Miami's big three.

  1. #46
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    Originally Posted by Red
    See, i told you. This CP3 sh*t is about D'Antoni and running a flawed offensive system.

    something I call brain-washing.

    I got news for you, unless D'Antoni miraculously learns defense, he won't be here.
    If D'Antoni is gone after next season then that can change things dramatically, but for now I'm just dealing with the here & now. Right now, with this head coach, this team will never be a legitimate contender unless we have an MVP calibre PG running the offense. If we bring in Phil Jackson in 2012 for argument's sake, then the need for CP3 goes down dramatically in a triangle offense, & you would then focus your attention on filling the role positions with defensive minded players & a few shooters. Not like any of that matters, this franchise will be lucky as hell to get either CP3 or D12 here regardless of who's coaching them.

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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    Cp3 wants to come to the Knicks and contrary to popular belief, I think we CAN afford him and complete our own version of the "Big Three". Because unlike the Melo sitiuation, Paul can be signed for a price considerably lower than Melo's because the maximum contracts are going to be significantly lower after this year's collective bargaining agreement. After this year, the top contracts will be a lot less lucrative than before. So i think CP3 is definitely going to be affordable for the Knicks.
    But would it surprise you if a player of his caliber to still ask for as much possible?

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    Originally Posted by Blumatic
    Well here's the thing with me and I think 95% of this board will agree. Miami will be the team that will win more than one Championship. And with them in the East they are in a our way. Defense aside, we have to match them talent wise in our starting line up or have our best 5 match or exceed Miami's best 5.

    With the skill set that each of the big three bring, Its makes it difficult to guard the for 48 minutes. The Bulls did well every game for 45 to 46 minutes sometimes with double digit leads. But the last 2 to three minutes the best defense in the NBA couldnt stop Miami. So if you cant use your defense to to ice the the hot shooting of Miami in the closing minutes....you use fire against fire. You get offensive along with you defense.

    As great as Felton, Gallo, and Chandler was good for us. They've never been able to create their own shot on a consitent basis as we've seen them go against the Thunder. Stoudemire is great, but he can bruise onder the basket and or doesnt have the ball handle skills or body control to weave through traffic. There are rumors that we might get Rip Hamiltion. He's like Ray Allen but his creating is limited as well.

    We've seen this story before. Even with player like Larry Johnson and Allan Houston teaming with Ewing. They did not have the greatness of Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman are hall of famer. Ewing the only Hall of Famer since the 70s Knicks.

    Some here want the little engine that could Knick team. NYers love the underdog and love the chance to take down Goliath. In a best of 7 Goliath will always win.

    I want dominant team. I want what the 90s Bulls had, I what the Lakers had. More than Chauncey's Pistons, Hell I want more than Garnett's Celtics.

    We gotta go for the jugular. And if there are those that just want build a "more than solid" 12 man roster instead of a Epic 5 plus 2 solid and 1 decent player team then I all I can say to you is God Bless You but Im not riding with that and neither should the Knicks.
    I'm with you, I want a dominant team that other teams are afraid to play. The Knicks of the mid 90s even though that team couldn't get past the Bulls, they were still a dominant team that other teams respected & feared. The '99 Knicks were a nice surprise but I didn't for a second think they had a chance in hell vs. the San Antonio Spurs & their twin tower bigmen. Maybe if we had the Ewing of '94 on that '99 squad, we could have won a chip, but those Knicks just never had the best of luck when it came to things breaking their way in the Finals.

    It boggles my mind how some fans seem happier rooting for a team full of marginal role players with limited skills that the team drafted & groomed over assembling a top notch roster of talent to challenge for a title, but to each his own. Sentimentality is stronger in some fans than others. I just wanna see this damn team win a title before I croak!

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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    I'm with you, I want a dominant team that other teams are afraid to play. The Knicks of the mid 90s even though that team couldn't get past the Bulls, they were still a dominant team that other teams respected & feared. The '99 Knicks were a nice surprise but I didn't for a second think they had a chance in hell vs. the San Antonio Spurs & their twin tower bigmen. Maybe if we had the Ewing of '94 on that '99 squad, we could have won a chip, but those Knicks just never had the best of luck when it came to things breaking their way in the Finals.

    It boggles my mind how some fans seem happier rooting for a team full of marginal role players with limited skills that the team drafted & groomed over assembling a top notch roster of talent to challenge for a title, but to each his own. Sentimentality is stronger in some fans than others. I just wanna see this damn team win a title before I croak!
    Not saying we would have won the title, but our chances could have been a lot higher in '99 if Ewing even played in the Finals with Camby. Sprewell was playing great.

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    Dear: Blumatic, STAT1, and Ron

    Given our defensive ranking (28th), and given our offensive ranking (2nd)

    I just want to know...

    How will CP3 change that? Please explain to me. BTW I didn't even mention our REBOUNDING stats nor did I mention given that D'Antoni has NEVER coached an above avg defensive team.

    As clearly and succinctly as possible- please explain.

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    I see your point....hope its a possibility (getting CP3)....If Paul forces their hand it could get done


    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Yes very true, but neither of them are ball facilitators, they don't really create shots for others on their team. That's why I think CP3 is imperative, especially w/this head coach, who has never had any run of success without an MVP calibre PG with elite passing skills running his speedball style of game.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Dear: Blumatic, STAT1, and Ron

    Given our defensive ranking (28th), and given our offensive ranking (2nd)

    I just want to know...

    How will CP3 change that? Please explain to me. BTW I didn't even mention our REBOUNDING stats nor did I mention given that D'Antoni has NEVER coached an above avg defensive team.

    As clearly and succinctly as possible- please explain.
    Red,


    Chris Paul is a wonderful defender at the PG position. He's also great, so he's a guy you want to give big minutes to. To have a guy like him, who is great both ways is invaluable to a coach. MDA wouldn't have to hide him like he used to have to do w Nash. He can quarterback your offense at a high level and play lock-down defense on the other end. It's pretty obvious that he would help a great deal.

    For one, the guy flat out keeps other PGs out of the paint- even the Roses and Westbrooks of the league- and he makes it look easy. He uses the angles extremely well along w his lateral quickness to funnels guys to the wall downlow or cut them off outright. And as I said before, he will definitely make sure the help is there no matter who's on the court. Having Paul is like having another coach on the court in games and in practice. He's in your face in practice getting you on the same page so that when you get in the game you know where your supposed to be. In the game if you make a mistake, your gonna here from him. All of the above will help our defense greatly. Having him would not be a total panacea, but it'd be pretty close.

    Let me explain.. One of the main reasons the Suns couldn't beat the Spurs in playoff series was that Nash /Parker matchup. Parker would torch Nash in those series. MDA would try Marion on him. He also had his fair share of problems. MDA never had an answer for Parker (or Duncan) really defensively. But he'd selectively double Duncan w some success. If the Suns had Paul instead of Nash to put on Parker, MDA may have been able to live w Duncan's scoring. It all comes down to flexibility. Paul being a two way player brings more to the table and thus gives a coach better options. This is what a great two-way player like Paul can do for a team regardless of who you have playing in the middle; not that who's in the middle is not important.

    W Paul on that team instead of Nash the Suns may have won a title or two. He would have made things really difficult for Parker @ both ends.

    Now, having said all of that I think it's important to note that our 28th ranked defense probably will not be that bad next season. As good as Felton was for us, he was an average defender. Do you remember ever seeing him flat rob another PG? I don't. Felton couldn't keep other Gs out of he paint either. Fields was taken to school on many a night. Gallo was pretty good defensively. Amare's one on one d was better, but still average (better than what it was, which was terrible). His help d still needs work. Although he did show some improvement there this season he still looked lost at times when he was clearly supposed to have rotated.. Turiaf played solidly when he was available. If he could of played more minutes we would've undoubtedly been better defensively as a team. His rotations are superb and when he gets there, he can block/ alter shots well. His one on one d is solid also. I really like Turiaf, but he doesn't play enough.

    We were also a distracted team for much of the yr. We faced tremendous upheaval at mid-season. I think we were 22nd in defense right before the trade, which is still horrible but not quite 28th, which is toilet bowel status. I think we'll see some better defense this season w or w/out a new defense assistant. I would definitely like to see a shake up of the staff however.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by ronoranina; May 31, 2011 at 22:38.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Dear: Blumatic, STAT1, and Ron

    Given our defensive ranking (28th), and given our offensive ranking (2nd)

    I just want to know...

    How will CP3 change that? Please explain to me. BTW I didn't even mention our REBOUNDING stats nor did I mention given that D'Antoni has NEVER coached an above avg defensive team.

    As clearly and succinctly as possible- please explain.
    Red, you raise a legitimate concern. Right now in my mind the only player that will singlehandedly severely improve our defensive weakness & rebounding in the paint is D12, & I don't for a second think he's going to end up in a Knicks uniform. I'm trying to keep things as pragmatic as possible, not trying to deal in fantasies that have very little shot of happening. CP3 as it is seems like a reach, but at least he seems like less of a reach than getting our hands on D12 does, at least to me. The point I'm making is that since MDA is our coach (& no I'm not happy about that in the least) then it seems to make sense to give him the player that he needs to make his system effective. No excuses after that, either get the job done or GTFO. What other choice do we have? Do you think Donnie is going to fire the coach that he hired this season before he's had a full training camp with the players he got last year? I don't.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    Dear: Blumatic, STAT1, and Ron

    Given our defensive ranking (28th), and given our offensive ranking (2nd)

    I just want to know...

    How will CP3 change that? Please explain to me. BTW I didn't even mention our REBOUNDING stats nor did I mention given that D'Antoni has NEVER coached an above avg defensive team.

    As clearly and succinctly as possible- please explain.
    Offensive Ranking in the in the playoffs: 10 out of 16.

    Defensive Ranking in the playoffs: 13 out of 16.

    And I dont care for MDA. If he was the coach for the 04 pistons, Kobe would have 6 rings today.

    Secondly. I'm not sold on the leadership of STAT and Melo. Im not sold on the leadership of Dwight Howard (biggest baby in the league). CP3 has me sold on being accountable on the play of his teammates as well as his own players, something that STAT Melo and Dantoni do not do. Our culture has not changed yet. We just gave a lot of buzz right now.

    I find Lebron, Wade and CP3 inspiring. Leaders, tough-minded, and can get in the grill of his teammates if there is a problem. I think STAT and Melo are too Hollywood right now (so is D12) Chris Paul is not hollywood.

    Some people think our need a only a skill set. I believe we need an attitude adjustment. We need a new coach thats a given. Thats a separate issue from CP3. We wont succeed until the coaching philosophy changes.

  10. #55
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    Originally Posted by Blumatic
    Offensive Ranking in the in the playoffs: 10 out of 16.

    Defensive Ranking in the playoffs: 13 out of 16.

    And I dont care for MDA. If he was the coach for the 04 pistons, Kobe would have 6 rings today.

    Secondly. I'm not sold on the leadership of STAT and Melo. Im not sold on the leadership of Dwight Howard (biggest baby in the league). CP3 has me sold on being accountable on the play of his teammates as well as his own players, something that STAT Melo and Dantoni do not do. Our culture has not changed yet. We just gave a lot of buzz right now.

    I find Lebron, Wade and CP3 inspiring. Leaders, tough-minded, and can get in the grill of his teammates if there is a problem. I think STAT and Melo are too Hollywood right now (so is D12) Chris Paul is not hollywood.

    Some people think our need a only a skill set. I believe we need an attitude adjustment. We need a new coach thats a given. Thats a separate issue from CP3. We wont succeed until the coaching philosophy changes.
    We do have Billups though, he's always been said to be a leader and you can't deny that.

    While rono brought up good points about Nash and Paul, it brings me to this. Would the Suns have went to the Finals/won? Maybe. Paul is obviously the better defender. Better offense? That's arguable, but Paul is great on offense with passing and shooting, like Nash, and both are great leader. Both PGs give a flow on offense. Nash, while not a great defender, keeps the team intact because of the flow and involvement he keeps his teammates in. Paul keeps the flow too on offense. The Suns won 40 games this past regular season. He was a huge factor in that, but you know what, they had a very good center, Gortat. Maybe they would have made the Playoffs if they had him the full season. We have STAT and Melo. So I ask rono, Blumatic, etc. AND people who are at the stance I am at of getting a center and a solid PG, if not Nash, not Paul, what other PG other is available, or would you try to get that might show a possibility of getting, that keeps that offensive flow? Even if if the player isn't on their level, is there anybody you think who can bring those qualities? Rubio? Beno Udrih? Who?
    Last edited by RunningJumper; Jun 01, 2011 at 01:21.

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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    We do have Billups though, he's always been said to be a leader and you can't deny that.

    While rono brought up good points about Nash and Paul, it brings me to this. Would the Suns have went to the Finals/won? Maybe. Paul is obviously the better defender. Better offense? That's arguable, but Paul is great on offense with passing and shooting, like Nash, and both are great leader. Both PGs give a flow on offense. Nash, while not a great defender, keeps the team intact because of the flow and involvement he keeps his teammates in. Paul keeps the flow too on offense. The Suns won 40 games this past regular season. He was a huge factor in that, but you know what, they had a very good center, Gortat. Maybe they would have made the Playoffs if they had him the full season. We have STAT and Melo. So I ask rono, Blumatic, etc. AND people who are at the stance I am at of getting a center and a solid PG, if not Nash, not Paul, what other PG other is available, or would you try to get that might show a possibility of getting, that keeps that offensive flow? Even if if the player isn't on their level, is there anybody you think who can bring those qualities? Rubio? Beno Udrih? Who?

    Billups a leader yes. Someone inspiring, no. Chauncey says the right things and he definately has the ears of Melo and Amare. But to me he is more what Jason Kidd is now. He is not that guy.

    Im telling put Chris Paul on this team with a better defense approach team wise. In a championship moment he will but put number that will rival Walt Frazer game 7 NBA Championship stats. He's the man. Also I want a dominate team. No questionable starters hoping that they would do the job.

    So those guys you mentioned. No. Those guys would be great on a team like Miami. Or a backup like Barea is. Maybe is D12 and Rip hamilton was here as well.

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    Nash is a better shooter than CP3 but CP3 is so much better on defense that it doesn't matter. Chris Paul is one of the best man defenders at the PG position in the NBA, he uses his athleticism and quickness very well and he is tough on opposing PGs who drive to the basket.

    But we also need rebounding and defense...this team has a lot of things it needs to work out...

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    Whether MOA is coaching or not CP3 is the much better pickup. The reason? He makes the other players better. D12 although he helps the other players out defensively he doesnt make his teammates better.

    Personally I think finding a big and having him concentrate on defense and rebounding is much easier to find than a PG with CP3's skillset. Heck I believe we had two on the team this year (Moz & AR) but they werent used. Just look at some of the numbers AR put up after leaving and getting a chance to play.

    CP3 pros:

    Shoot out to the 3 pt line
    Excellent passer
    Good defender
    Killer instinct
    Sees the floor better than all other PG's
    Excellent FT shooter
    Commands double teams
    Leader
    Wants to play in NY with STAT & Melo
    Great decision maker

    I'm sure I missed some things but you guys get the point. If you have a choice you get CP3 and a couple of Moz type centers instead of D12 and a Felton type of PG.

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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Whether MOA is coaching or not CP3 is the much better pickup. The reason? He makes the other players better. D12 although he helps the other players out defensively he doesnt make his teammates better.

    Personally I think finding a big and having him concentrate on defense and rebounding is much easier to find than a PG with CP3's skillset. Heck I believe we had two on the team this year (Moz & AR) but they werent used. Just look at some of the numbers AR put up after leaving and getting a chance to play.

    CP3 pros:

    Shoot out to the 3 pt line
    Excellent passer
    Good defender
    Killer instinct
    Sees the floor better than all other PG's
    Excellent FT shooter
    Commands double teams
    Leader
    Wants to play in NY with STAT & Melo
    Great decision maker

    I'm sure I missed some things but you guys get the point. If you have a choice you get CP3 and a couple of Moz type centers instead of D12 and a Felton type of PG.
    I would say look at a team like the Celtics. They were good, but even in their prime, I don't think they would have been able to get past this Miami team. Raja is a better defender than CP3 (not as good offensively) and they are close to equal play makers in my opinion.

    I don't see how putting CP3 on this team makes us better defenders as a team. I think we need a coach who will teach the team how to do it, but if we were to get CP3 (which we won't... b/c what the heck are we going to trade for him), what would we have left. Three superstars, no depth, and no defense.

    We need depth at this point more than anything -- players to fill out the roster. What Pat Riley did was a miracle... To get Miller, resign Haslem and Chalmers...

    It would take us another year after next to just build enough depth to compete. Meanwhile Miami is only getting better. We need to make our move towards an actual team now. We can't wait for Miami to get farther ahead of us.3


    And that is crux of it all, isn't it? Did Miami pretty much guarantee themselves the Eastern Conference for the next 5 years? There s a good chance they did. Have we ever had a team that had two top three players on it?

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    Originally Posted by MusketeerX
    I would say look at a team like the Celtics. They were good, but even in their prime, I don't think they would have been able to get past this Miami team. Raja is a better defender than CP3 (not as good offensively) and they are close to equal play makers in my opinion.

    I don't see how putting CP3 on this team makes us better defenders as a team. I think we need a coach who will teach the team how to do it, but if we were to get CP3 (which we won't... b/c what the heck are we going to trade for him), what would we have left. Three superstars, no depth, and no defense.

    We need depth at this point more than anything -- players to fill out the roster. What Pat Riley did was a miracle... To get Miller, resign Haslem and Chalmers...

    It would take us another year after next to just build enough depth to compete. Meanwhile Miami is only getting better. We need to make our move towards an actual team now. We can't wait for Miami to get farther ahead of us.3


    And that is crux of it all, isn't it? Did Miami pretty much guarantee themselves the Eastern Conference for the next 5 years? There s a good chance they did. Have we ever had a team that had two top three players on it?
    Rondo cant hold a candle to CP3. Those 7-10 open looks a game Rondo gets from 12-15 ft are makes for CP3. You have to play him honest or he'll kill you.

    We need a couple of serviceable bigs and a coach to coach them right. A coach that coaches the entire team the correct way defensively. A CP3 to this mix and we're much closer to a chip than anything else we can come up with. Thats including adding D12.

    I agree now is the time. You add the coach, add the bigs and when you can add Paul its almost a finished product. I'm hoping it beyond hope Walsh realizes MOA is not the answer...

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