Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 62

Thread: Can we cut the Superstar sh*t?

  1. #16
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Ft. Collins, CO
    Posts
    2,950
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Originally Posted by Red
    We can point to any star and find this.

    And recall where we were before this in terms of wanting a star, it looked impossible.

    So what's your point? He was too expensive or his game too inconsistent?
    Bingo! Yes, he was/is both. It cost us too much, as in we are quite possibly never going to win a championship because we gave up too much...and he is overrated. Melo is defintely not leading this team to anything unless we are able to surround him with quality role players, which we may not be able to do because we have no cap space, assets or draft picks.

    If the new CBA allows us to get these pieces, I will support Melo. Until then, I will continue to make this point. The Knicks winning a championship comes first to me, not Melo.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Jun 13, 2011 at 11:19.

  2. #17
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,308
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Bingo! Yes, he was/is both. It cost us too much, as in we are quite possibly never going to win a championship because we gave up too much...and he is overrated. Melo is defintely not leading this team to anything unless we are able to surround him with quality role players, which we may not be able to do because we have no cap space, assets or draft picks.

    If the new CBA allows us to get these pieces, I will support Melo. Until then, I will continue to make this point. The Knicks winning a championship comes first to me, not Melo.
    Well according to some those compliments are supposed to want to come here on the cheap... it remains to be seen.

    And I guess that's what closers cost. We did need one and he singlehandedly won games for us and looked unstoppable in game 2. Don't forget that. Not many players can do that. Maybe Kobe and Wade but the list is short.

    With him cb stat and fields all we really need is size to me.

    And I hear your reservations but I think after a full season+ you'll come around.

  3. #18
    Veteran DontForgetDerekHarper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,263
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    I dont know, I think in our case it is different

    if we got a chris paul

    he would probably average 13 ppg and 13 assists with 4 reb and 2 stls a game

    That is better than a bosh as the third offensive option who needs shots to be effective.

    Paul has already shown he doesnt have an ego

    with a team that has the least amount of talent of chris pauls career, I felt that during the regular season and in that playoff series against hte lakers paul got that team to play better than some of his past teams became he was unselfish and elevated the play of his team.

    imagine paul elevating amare and melo ?

    it would be priceless

  4. #19
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,308
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Originally Posted by DontForgetDerekHarper
    I dont know, I think in our case it is different

    if we got a chris paul

    he would probably average 13 ppg and 13 assists with 4 reb and 2 stls a game

    That is better than a bosh as the third offensive option who needs shots to be effective.

    Paul has already shown he doesnt have an ego

    with a team that has the least amount of talent of chris pauls career, I felt that during the regular season and in that playoff series against hte lakers paul got that team to play better than some of his past teams became he was unselfish and elevated the play of his team.

    imagine paul elevating amare and melo ?

    it would be priceless
    Imagine CB Stat Melo Fields and...

    D12.

    A D12 not expected to carry his team. That's championship caliber.

  5. #20
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    日本
    Posts
    6,488
    Rep Power
    28

    Default

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay

    1. Depth and a bench are just as important as a superstar. Jason Terry and Barea were just as important. We had our MVP, all we needed were the other pieces, namely a big man, as Red mentioned.

    2. Hopefully the new CBA allows us to get those important pieces. Or else we'll be just like Miami, but a little worse.
    1. They absolutely are. The Bowen's, Mario Ellie's, Avery Johnson's, Steve Kerr's etc. are name's that would have disappeared unless they played fitting roles on championship teams.

    2. And therein lies the ultimate success of both this team, and, to a degree, the Melo trade. I'm with you there.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Problem is we 1st need the superstar! Amre is no Dirk and not capable of carrying a team like Dirk or Melo. Now that we have that legit star who can carry our team we can fill up the squad with role players.

    BTW:

    Miami may not have won last night night but the safe bet is that they WILL win eventually.
    And we needed to adjust to that future since 'The Decision' by fortifying our front court. Dallas' size between Chandler and Dirka Dirka was Miami's scourge! Given the 50% success rate of small ball all season, as I've said, this can't be about what D'Antoni needs but doesn't have anymore. We need to curb Miami's inevitable emergence in to a powerhouse by building a team that boasts an equilibrium in both their offensive and defensive efficiency. The best defence is a good defence, not a good offence.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Melo was great in Game 2 and good in game 4. He was absolutely terrible in Game 1 and bad in game 3. This is what you get from Melo. I've been saying this from the beginning.
    Melo was molested by the refs in game 1. Whether or not you abide by the saying "can't leave it in the hands of the refs, nor blame them for failure", he was. Bias? No. He was absolutely fingered by the zebras.

    Originally Posted by Red
    1. Its safe to say we have our Dirk. We have our stars. Like we thought long ago that was the tough part then strategically acquiring compliments is next.

    2. I hope the D'antoni influence doesn't continue to f*ck with that.
    1. Unfortunately, in regard to acquiring compliments, we're subject to the placebo effect of the Melo trade and the hammer fall of the CBA. The losses of Mozgov and Randolph seem irrelevant to most, but if the CBA comes out against our favour, then they will be anything but irrelevant. I know a lot of people don't agree with me about that, but considering that a lot of people are pining for Jerome Jordan sais it all, IMO.

    2. I concur.

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    1. It's clear you made a prejudgment as you were crusading against this from the beginning and I hope you don't fall into the trap of sticking to your prejudice even as the team finds success.

    Again:

    Step 2 is fill the team up with role players and hope some underachievers reach their potential. (Jason Terry)


    P.S. Dallas has Dirk, vets and role players who all overachieve playing against the weakest minded "superstar" ever to play.
    LJ's prejudgements weren't so much prejudgements as they were a presage. Though he didn't say so in this particular post, I agree with him in terms of the whole facade having nothing to do with winning.

    I'm happy to have Melo, but the fact still remains, we gambled on the unknown. Both his and Dolan's finances came before their winning aspirations. It's a shame that multi millionaires don't share that mentality with their comparatively impoverished fans. In a perfect world he would have stuck with Denver until season's end [they were almost in 6th spot at the time] and signed with us as a FA. Still, you can't be overly judgemental toward a man who didn't want to forfeit $15M+.

    The trade basically became a stalemate because of this, IMO. In Denver and Minnesota's case, I think they came out on top considering what they garnered for what they gave up when all things cap and CBA are considered. Marginally so in Denver's case.

  6. #21
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    日本
    Posts
    6,488
    Rep Power
    28

    Default



    That is sensational.

  7. #22
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,308
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s


    That is sensational.
    Thank, I got it from another poster on the nykfp.com forum. Funny as hell!

    On Jerome Jordan, are you not a fan of his prospectus? Did you read the article in his thread? The media is selling him like he is our savior.

    On LJ Trill says he's the weakest mind superstar, I blame the media.

    He and readers have been conditioned that he's "the best". But to me he may be the best athlete but not the best player. We keep heaing about how can the best play like that and such.

    But where is his finesse game? He runs jumps and out-muscles his way but I don't see the key elements I've been accustomed to with true best players.

    I believe the media and fans need to proclaim someone the next coming, and I blame Jordan. Its the Jordan effect to me. A wing player must be compared to him since he was/is the best.

    Now when I see LJ first I notice that he bounced and refused to accept he is a star that needs help and even that doesn't gaurantee anyting. Before he bounced I heard excuses. You know I don't do excuses.

    His coach
    His Mom
    His team
    His front office
    He was tired/ too many minutes
    His girl

    That to me was too much. How about he believed everyone since a kid that he was the 2nd coming and didn't realize he's not. So he cannot accept anything but it was someone or something else, not him.

    In truth he needs to be humbled. He needs to consider reality. In reality its rare the fastest, strongest players win. Sure there are the Shaqs of NBA's past ala Wilt who dominated.

    But the MJ'S, kobe's and Duncans who weren't necessarily the most athletic or at least had others their same size etc... play ball. They don't. Bowl everyone over. They don't point fingures, they exploit the nuances of the game and that happens after being honest and working on their weaknesses, not believing the media can determine who's the best.

    How can he do that if he's already "the best"?

    Then he had more pressure by thinking once he teams with Bosh and Wade it was basically a foregone conclusion he would win.

    Had he been humble he would of stayed in CLE. His talents don't equate to championships just polarizing

  8. #23
    Superstar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    962
    Rep Power
    8

    Default

    1. Fire D'antoni, small ball doesn't work. Again, the team with the most size won the chip.
    2. Carlisle coached the hell outta Ellen Degeneres too in this series. Miami's offense was garbage. No ball movement, people passing up open looks, Wade playing ISO the whole time.
    3. Get a GM that is a stat nerd. Dallas front office contains the main who invented 82games.com and created advanced metrics for NBA players. It won't help get a superstar, but will probably help getting roleplayers who fit our system.

  9. #24
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    2,758
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Originally Posted by DontForgetDerekHarper
    I dont know, I think in our case it is different

    if we got a chris paul

    he would probably average 13 ppg and 13 assists with 4 reb and 2 stls a game

    That is better than a bosh as the third offensive option who needs shots to be effective.

    Paul has already shown he doesnt have an ego

    with a team that has the least amount of talent of chris pauls career, I felt that during the regular season and in that playoff series against hte lakers paul got that team to play better than some of his past teams became he was unselfish and elevated the play of his team.

    imagine paul elevating amare and melo ?

    it would be priceless
    I really agree w this post. The dynamics of a Paul/Melo/Amare trio would be unbelievable. It'd be like Magic running w Kareem and "BiG GamE" James. And that trio would contrast the the Miami big three because you wouldn't have two dominating wing players taking turns trying to orchestrate/ score, w Bosh sorta lost in the shuffle. Paul would get them the rock where they like it while making our other role guys better as well. The chemistry between those three would be sick.

    The other thing that I want to point out is that, like Trill said, Miami is going to get better. Pat Riley will make adjustments. Wade, Bosh and Bron will get more comfortable playing w one another and Spoelstra will continue to grow as coach while finding new ways to exploit the big three's talents.

    I still think Miami should've won this series. They simply crumbled underneath the pressure. They aren't humble, yet. And when your not humble you will be humiliated. Seven championships my ass.. Who does that?? There should've never been any mention of dynasty-type success. These dudes need to STFu for a while and just concentrate on basketball, no lame predictions, no more ignorant comments/antics and just keep it movin'. All of the hate and poor karma surrounding this team is what, to me, had the big three playing shook out there, passing up shots and such, looking f-ed up in the game. They had no swag. The coughing incident added to this. It put added pressure on Wade and Lebron and served as yet another distraction.

    Although I hate Miami, and I ultimately wanted them to lose, I found myself frustrated because they were the better sqaud and they should've beaten Dallas. People say Dallas had the better 8 or 10. Maybe that is the case, but Miami was up 2-1. They were in control. Game 3 was so close, a 2 point loss. They fumbled it. Mentally they just couldn't hang w Dallas, who just put their collective heads down and went to work against them. Now imagine if their had been no hype? No lame predictions? No added BS pressure? Last night costly turnovers (balls bouncing off of Wades foot for crying out loud), lacadasical play, missed freethrows- just bad basketball lost them the game. Mentally they weren't there. They gave that **** to Dallas. Deep down I was frustrated to see a team that should've won, lose because of all of the negative enrgy surrounding their team.

    In couple of years (maybe next) Miami is going to be fierce. The tendancy is to look at the now, but down the road Miaimi has the potential to be really dominant if they play their cards right and we don't. That is why I still think we need to get another star here.

    I would rather have Paul instead of D12. Remember D12 has shown no desire to want to be here playing next to Amare. I don't think Amare wants to play along side that middle clogger either. Plus, w a STAT/Melo/D12 combo the dynamics between, IMO, would not be good. You'd have the two dominant bigs both needing the ball in the post.. Yes Amare can face-up at the foul line or elbow, but where is D12 in this scenario. On the perimeter?? Guys will just lay off of D12 and help on Amare at will. If D12 gets the ball to drive this would work better, as Amare could hang on the perimeter. If he's making that particular night his man would be hesitant to leave him to help on D12. I think our ball-movement suffer w those three on the same squad. Three ball stoppers together is not a good look.

    I just think there's so much more balance in a CP3/ Melo/Amare three. It would allow for so much flexiblilty. Think about it. Melo would prolly come out before either Paul or STAT, you bring in a shooter and run the pick and roll w Paul and Amare resulting in a layup for Paul, a dunk or jumper off a pop for Amare, or a kick to an open shooter for a three. When Amare's out and Paul and Melo are in together you could get a little two man game going, some give and go. Melo could isolate and kick to Paul or any of the other shooters depending on where the help comes from or finish outright . If Melo gets the ball to Paul after he's met w help off of a drive and a defender rotates over to Paul to help, Paul can easily beat him, break down the D and find another open shooter or finish the play himself. The level of confusion and unpredictablity for a defense with these three guys would be astounding. It would strike fear in the hearts of opposing teams.

    When the three are on the floor together. You can get the pick and roll between Amare and Paul going. We know how that works. The defense would have to pick their poison. If Melo gets the ball off of a kick, he immediately becomes a serious threat if his man is stupid enough to have rotated off of him. Whoever rotates back is either gettng driven by for a lay in or dunk, or a jumper wetted in their face. If by some miracle Melo is met w help off of a drive our center or 2 guard should miove toward the basket to recieve the ball for an easy dunk. Melo can also find the 2, or Paul for a shot along the perimeter. Our offense would be unstoppable. I hope you guys can see all of that in your minds. The possiblities are endless and I didn't even discuss our transition game. We could really get out and run w Paul, if MDA is still coach and we still are running his system mind you..

    The Melo/Amare/Paul big three would be more dangerous than Miami's IMO. I also think they'd hit the ground running unlike what we saw w Miami.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Jun 13, 2011 at 14:40.

  10. #25
    Superstar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    683
    Rep Power
    11

    Default Quality Thread

    This is a quality thread. Crazy8's synthesis of themes is excellent.

    LJ4ptPlay, who I believe is a Denver area resident, has been consistent about Melo and I was firmly behind him, at least until that second play-off game when Melo was magnificient. But I do recall that one of LJ's primary points was Melo's inconsistency. I continue to have some of LJ's concerns, particularly our lack of cap space and assets going forward. We are not in position to be anything but delusional as to our prospects for CP3 or Dwight Howard. But I am hopeful that Melo's and Amare's pride will cause each to use his athleticism at both ends of the court. They have the physical capacity to be dominant defenders. Of course we could use a coach who has an interest in defense

    I am also firmly behind Red, we need a big. As for D'Antoni, I think he is with us for another year. I am not a fan of his game. We have got to play some defense.

    This draft might give some insight into the future. For example, if Fredette and Singleton were both available at 17, and we were to pick Fredette, it would suggest a commitment to D'Antoni's current system --a perimeter shooter who plays no defense. If we were to pick Singleton, it would suggest a commitment to defense.

  11. #26
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    2,758
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    Originally Posted by Red
    But the MJ'S, kobe's and Duncans who weren't necessarily the most athletic or at least had others their same size etc... play ball. They don't. Bowl everyone over. They don't point fingures, they exploit the nuances of the game and that happens after being honest and working on their weaknesses, not believing the media can determine who's the best.
    What the hell is this nonsense (left Duncan unbolded because actually wasn't athletic)?? Smfh head dude..

    Jordan was the greatest athlete of his era, no? Kobe? He was no slouch either.

    Yes they were both uber fundamentally sound to go along w their athletic gifts, but to say they "weren't the most athletic".. Wow.

    I get where your going re: Lebron, as he doesn't have the polish of Kobe or Jordan, or even Wade for that matter to go along w his athletic talent. The example you utilized was terrible however.

  12. #27
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    4,038
    Rep Power
    16

    Default

    A lot of typing in this thread. I'm gonna have to read it later.

    I'll just say that Billups is a winner who, if he comes back, will allow room for another player or two. I think that's far more important.

    That addition of Paul may or may not be ridiculously good on offense, but I don't see how that helps our defense. Plus add in that I believe we can win without risking all of our cap on three players.

  13. #28
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,361
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Red, let me ask you what bigman do you really think the Knicks can get that would vault us to championship contender status right now? Are there any real C's out there that can take us over the top other than D12 in your eyes that we can realistically target? I know you're not in favor of targetting CP3, so what kind of team do you plan to build & how do you plan on putting it together? To put together a championship calibre roster, we're going to have to have some assets to acquire the players necessary. We have limited cap space this summer so you won't be able to get many quality players to fill the holes we need to be filled. I've seen you adamantly express your position against targetting another superstar, but what is the alternative? How do you think the Knicks can put together a championship calibre roster with limited cap space this summer & a #17 draft pick? I'm honestly curious to see what your plan is here.

    Also curious to know whether you were against signing STAT & trading for Melo too. Were you one of those fans who wanted to stay the course with guys like David Lee, Gallo, Wilson & Mozgov & build a championship contender that way?
    Last edited by STAT1; Jun 14, 2011 at 00:34.

  14. #29
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    日本
    Posts
    6,488
    Rep Power
    28

    Default

    Originally Posted by Red
    Thank, I got it from another poster on the nykfp.com forum. Funny as hell!

    On Jerome Jordan, are you not a fan of his prospectus? Did you read the article in his thread? The media is selling him like he is our savior.
    That was a Newsday article wasn't it? Dolan family owned and operated.

    The Knicks want to know what they have in Jordan, who has shown noticable physical growth, but it is impossible to gauge his progress and, more importantly, his readiness to compete at the NBA level, based on the competition he's facing and the minutes he's playing. In 26 games in the Adriatic League, Jordan is averaging 7.5 points and 3.7 rebounds in 14.7 minutes. In 11 Eurocup games, he has put up 6.7 points and 2.9 rebounds in 14.1 minutes and in four Euroleague games he's averaging 8.5 points and 2.5 rebounds in 11.8 minutes.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    The above text in bold makes sense to me.

    Hype, at this stage, bares little meaning. It's good to see that there was notable physical growth, because he was 235lb when we signed him. How that translates in to deserved hype is beyond me.

    Another point is that he's never been a great shot blocker as a pro. In both the Adriatic and Eurocup competitions, he averaged 0.5/0.6 BPG. I know that you and I both agree that we need a traditional big. The BPG and the body mass aren't proving that he has the game we so desperately need.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    * His burst appendix kept him out of our training sessions with this year's rookie class, so again, where is the hype stemmed from?

  15. #30
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    4,038
    Rep Power
    16

    Default

    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Red, let me ask you what bigman do you really think the Knicks can get that would vault us to championship contender status right now? Are there any real C's out there that can take us over the top other than D12 in your eyes that we can realistically target? I know you're not in favor of targetting CP3, so what kind of team do you plan to build & how do you plan on putting it together? To put together a championship calibre roster, we're going to have to have some assets to acquire the players necessary. We have limited cap space this summer so you won't be able to get many quality players to fill the holes we need to be filled. I've seen you adamantly express your position against targetting another superstar, but what is the alternative? How do you think the Knicks can put together a championship calibre roster with limited cap space this summer & a #17 draft pick? I'm honestly curious to see what your plan is here.

    Also curious to know whether you were against signing STAT & trading for Melo too. Were you one of those fans who wanted to stay the course with guys like David Lee, Gallo, Wilson & Mozgov & build a championship contender that way?
    There is a limited amount of centers out there, maybe only guys such as Dalembert is available, but we can start the road to a championship with a good coach and more defensive players. Add veterans such as Iverson and T-Mac. Our superstars our young, so it'd only be positive to add players who used be able to play on a superstar level and still play good. Kidd is an example of that.

    1. Add defensive players
    2. Add good coach
    3. Add veterans
    4. Draft the best players available (it doesn't matter what position, our bench needs the best)

    We would like to win it all next season, but to get another max to win it the first year is rushing it. Do not be surprised if one of our superstars gets traded at one point if this happened, and it wouldn't be Chris Paul, it'd be either the guy from New York, or the guy who brought us back. Take your pick, I wouldn't want to.

Similar Threads

  1. Melo and STAT Superstar treatment?
    By YungMelo15 in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Apr 18, 2011, 13:29
  2. So who is our Superstar???
    By KnicksWillRiseAgain in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: Mar 06, 2011, 12:04
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: Sep 21, 2010, 13:59
  4. Replies: 137
    Last Post: Jul 04, 2008, 20:35
  5. Isiah Looking To Trade For A Superstar
    By insomniac in forum NY Knicks
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Jun 16, 2007, 02:46

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •