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Thread: Can we cut the Superstar sh*t?

  1. #31
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Just pray to high heaven the Heat don't trade Lebron for Dwight Howard. Then they would be a real threat.

  2. #32
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    You guys do realize that the last time our Knicks won a championship they had 6 Hall of Famers. Not just stars or superstars, but some of the best that ever played the game. If you have a chance to add a CP3 or D12 you jump at it and dont look back.

    Reed HOF
    Debusschere HOF
    Bradley HOF
    Monroe HOF
    Frazier HOF
    Lucas HOF

    Personally, I wouldnt want to get a bunch of fringe type players and trust MDA to coach them up to the level necessary for us to become a championship caliber team. The more superstars we have the less we'll have to depend on them being coached up.

  3. #33
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    You guys do realize that the last time our Knicks won a championship they had 6 Hall of Famers. Not just stars or superstars, but some of the best that ever played the game. If you have a chance to add a CP3 or D12 you jump at it and dont look back.

    Reed HOF
    Debusschere HOF
    Bradley HOF
    Monroe HOF
    Frazier HOF
    Lucas HOF

    Personally, I wouldnt want to get a bunch of fringe type players and trust MDA to coach them up to the level necessary for us to become a championship caliber team. The more superstars we have the less we'll have to depend on them being coached up.
    Different times. Less teams among other things. There's a reason why, you know, we're not gonna get six Hall Of Famers in their 20s.

    Also, I don't want to build a team to D'Antoni's likings.

  4. #34
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, Turiaf is good, but missed a lot of games. I'd to get Camby if we can keep Turiaf.

  5. #35
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Red, let me ask you what bigman do you really think the Knicks can get that would vault us to championship contender status right now? Are there any real C's out there that can take us over the top other than D12 in your eyes that we can realistically target? I know you're not in favor of targetting CP3, so what kind of team do you plan to build & how do you plan on putting it together? To put together a championship calibre roster, we're going to have to have some assets to acquire the players necessary. We have limited cap space this summer so you won't be able to get many quality players to fill the holes we need to be filled. I've seen you adamantly express your position against targetting another superstar, but what is the alternative? How do you think the Knicks can put together a championship calibre roster with limited cap space this summer & a #17 draft pick? I'm honestly curious to see what your plan is here.

    Also curious to know whether you were against signing STAT & trading for Melo too. Were you one of those fans who wanted to stay the course with guys like David Lee, Gallo, Wilson & Mozgov & build a championship contender that way?
    Not David Lee for the price he wanted, I would take him for cheaper $ though- he is the garbage man type I feel we need with Stat and Melo and CB. Maybe not a starter but a rebounder who is unselfish and knows his role.

    A Tyson Chandler type- I know you may think I'm saying that because they won but really I've been clamoring for his ype for quite some time.

    A 10 rpg center with size (6'11 or >) that's it. In the $5-8m range, hopefully young enough to stay on the court.

    I agree the bigs we had weren't my ideal choice as they lacked what exactly I feel we needed. Turiaf lacks size but he's smart. Moz had size but no hands no defensive I.q.

    Randolph had size but no strength and needed work.

    But yeah a Tyson type- Big, already seasoned, hungry enough to know his role and sign for a reasonable amount.

    And on Wilson- I have no use for him at his price with Melo here. If he wants to be a 6th man and save us $ then cool, but not starter $.

    On Melo I Was happy as hell we got him. I know almost everyone was thinking what I was watching MIA in these finals. I'm so glad we have CB-STAT-&Melo
    They definitly have the eye of the tiger- all of them! There will be no backing down indecisiveness with them trust me.

    The harder you go at them, the harder they'll bring it (no homo). We just have to get there. But once we do, watch out. And their roles should be well defined by then.

    Melo is our Dirk
    CB is our Kidd
    And Stat is our wild card. If he rebounds and plays D being the leader he is we are a problem

    Just need Fields to be our Terry and a center at the least.

    Let's say Douglas is our Berrea

    Lol
    Last edited by Red; Jun 14, 2011 at 07:47.

  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    What the hell is this nonsense (left Duncan unbolded because actually wasn't athletic)?? Smfh head dude..

    Jordan was the greatest athlete of his era, no? Kobe? He was no slouch either.

    Yes they were both uber fundamentally sound to go along w their athletic gifts, but to say they "weren't the most athletic".. Wow.

    I get where your going re: Lebron, as he doesn't have the polish of Kobe or Jordan, or even Wade for that matter to go along w his athletic talent. The example you utilized was terrible however.
    I meant physically imposing. Jordan & Kobe weren't the biggest, fastest, strongest

    MJ had hops, KB has slashing capabilities both didn't rely on physics as much as smarts. They devloped their game to exploit what the defense gave them.

    Jordan was a driver, he developed his outside shot (I think he started with a 13% fg%), then worked on scoring in the post. His back-to-the-basket fade away was developed out of necessity.

    That indicates two things Lebron lacks at this point:

    1. Being humble, knowing he wasn't the best and needed improvement

    2. Hunger and desire

    I doubt Kobe or MJ would pass up 4 straight shots with the game in the balance. But LJ's limits dictated he had no go to shots.

    That's Bball, how to get your shots depending on what the defense gives you and making the proper decisions. Not out running jumping and muscling. At least not a wing players game.

  7. #37
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Media No CP3 for us

    Nypost.com

    MIAMI -- Knicks owner James Dolan should fly to Miami, grab the South Beach three-star championship blueprint and toss it into the turquoise ocean.
    It does not look like the way to go for the Knicks, who boast two stars in Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire and have contemplated adding a third, with the rest of their 2012 cap space, in Chris Paul. But at what expense?
    America's Team -- the 2010-11 champion Dallas Mavericks -- proved during the riveting Finals that a deep, full-bodied team with lots of varied parts can overwhelm a club made of three players -- no matter how good.
    The LeBron James-Dwyane Wade-Chris Bosh experiment failed not only because "King" James choked, but also because the Heat had no supporting cast to perform the Heimlich. Whether Miami president Pat Riley can add solid complements without cap space is questionable.
    None of the Big Three will be traded this summer, but if the star trio does not win the 2012 championship, the concept may be scrapped.
    Late Sunday night, Riley's wife, Christine, approached a James confidant and whispered: "You learn more from losing than winning."
    Knicks outgoing president Donnie Walsh has given strong recent hints adding Paul may not be in the plan, especially with the new labor agreement shrinking their 2012 cap space. Better to spend the cap room on three solid contributors.

  8. #38
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    I meant physically imposing. Jordan & Kobe weren't the biggest, fastest, strongest

    MJ had hops, KB has slashing capabilities both didn't rely on physics as much as smarts. They devloped their game to exploit what the defense gave them.

    Jordan was a driver, he developed his outside shot (I think he started with a 13% fg%), then worked on scoring in the post. His back-to-the-basket fade away was developed out of necessity.

    That indicates two things Lebron lacks at this point:

    1. Being humble, knowing he wasn't the best and needed improvement

    2. Hunger and desire

    I doubt Kobe or MJ would pass up 4 straight shots with the game in the balance. But LJ's limits dictated he had no go to shots.

    That's Bball, how to get your shots depending on what the defense gives you and making the proper decisions. Not out running jumping and muscling. At least not a wing players game.
    Ty for the clarification. I agree, Jordan was not the fastest or the strongest, but he was one of the most explosive (his first step was too much for any defender), had unbelievable jumping ability and fantasitc ball-handling skills. Jordan could get anywhere he wanted to on the court at any time. Early in his career, like Lebron, MJ did flat out overpower people with his explosiveness and tremendous ability to finish at the rim. He took the league by storm with that talent alone.

    Like you said, he developed the subtle nuances over time. He also had hunger for the mental side of the game that was unmatched, Peyton Manning like infact. He knew teams and individual defenders tendancies and weaknessess better than anyone. He was obssessive about that side of the game and combined it with his great skill and physical abilty creating an edge in his favor that, well, we've all seen play out on the court in all phases and levels of competition.

    Your right Lebron does not posess the heart or the head of MJ. No one does. Kobe comes close. If Lebron committed to working on a low-post game and midrange game he'd be unstoppable. He's content though. Too often you see him facing someone up 20 feet from the basket, or relying on transition plays in the open court. He's not yet the technician or tactician that MJ or Kobe was/is.

    What's up w the bolded in your post??
    Last edited by ronoranina; Jun 14, 2011 at 14:09.

  9. #39
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Ty for the clarification. I agree, Jordan was not the fastest or the strongest, but he was one of the most explosive (his first step was too much for any defender), had unbelievable jumping ability and fantasitc ball-handling skills. Jordan could get anywhere he wanted to on the court at any time. Early in his career, like Lebron, MJ did flat out overpower people with his explosiveness and tremendous ability to finish at the rim. He took the league by storm with that talent alone.

    Like you said, he developed the subtle nuances over time. He also had hunger for the mental side of the game that was unmatched, Peyton Manning like infact. He knew teams and individual defenders tendancies and weaknessess better than anyone. He was obssessive about that side of the game and combined it with his great skill and physical abilty creating an edge in his favor that, well, we've all seen play out on the court in all phases and levels of the game.

    Your right Lebron does not posess the heart or the head of MJ. No one does. Kobe comes close. If Lebron committed to working on a low-post game and midrange game he'd be unstoppable. He's content though. Too often you see him facing someone up 20 feet from the basket, or relying on transition plays in the open court. He's not yet the technician or tactician that MJ or Kobe was/is.

    What's up w the bolded in your post??
    My mistake. His 3pt% his 1st four years= 17, 16, 18, and 13
    But he worked on it and it increased

    Taking nothing away from MJ, but do you recall his SG opposition during his years when he was beasting?

    I expect his competition wasn't the best. Guys like Starks and Craig Ehlo couldn't get it done.

    Who else lined up against him that could callenge him? Maybe the best was Miller or Wilkins? Bird doesn't count

  10. #40
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    My mistake. His 3pt% his 1st four years= 17, 16, 18, and 13
    But he worked on it and it increased

    Taking nothing away from MJ, but do you recall his SG opposition during his years when he was beasting?

    I expect his competition wasn't the best. Guys like Starks and Craig Ehlo couldn't get it done.

    Who else lined up against him that could callenge him? Maybe the best was Miller or Wilkins? Bird doesn't count
    I'd say the comp was similar to what it is today. I think Kobe faces about the same level as MJ did.

    MJ had guys like Drexler and Ron Harper (20 ppg Harp) along with the other guys you mentioned. Hershey Hawkins was nice, though a bit undersized. The only guy I can think of that really could give Jordan a few fits here and there was Dumars. He was just a stellar defender. Jordan used to say Dumars made him work on every possession. He was the only guy MJ ever gave that type of respect to.

    There was also Steve Smith, Byron Scott and a few odd undersized SG's - one from Utah and another from Houston - who's names excape me. By and large Jordan could dominate any of these guys on a given night. Just as Kobe could/ can in this era, and West in his.

  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I'd say the comp was similar to what it is today. I think Kobe faces about the same level as MJ did.

    MJ had guys like Drexler and Ron Harper (20 ppg Harp) along with the other guys you mentioned. Hershey Hawkins was nice, though a bit undersized. The only guy I can think of that really could give Jordan a few fits here and there was Dumars. He was just a stellar defender. Jordan used to say Dumars made him work on every possession. He was the only guy MJ ever gave that type of respect to.

    There was also Steve Smith, Byron Scott and a few odd undersized SG's - one from Utah and another from Houston - who's names excape me. By and large Jordan could dominate any of these guys on a given night. Just as Kobe could/ can in this era, and West in his.
    Bryon Russell & Mario Ellie.

    Off the dome I can remember someguys that used to guard MJ & were good SG's/SF's: Sean Elliot, Kendall Gill, Dan Majerle, Richard Dumas, Jimmy Jackson, & Eddie Jones.

  12. #42
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    Bryon Russell & Mario Ellie.

    Off the dome I can remember someguys that used to guard MJ & were good SG's/SF's: Sean Elliot, Kendall Gill, Dan Majerle, Richard Dumas, Jimmy Jackson, & Eddie Jones.
    I was thinking of Jeff Malone and Vernon Maxwell. Glad I went to Bball Reference or I wouldn't have recalled them.. I was on more of late 80s, early 90s train of thought. Also, Russell and Ellie aren't undersized.

  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Different times. Less teams among other things. There's a reason why, you know, we're not gonna get six Hall Of Famers in their 20s.

    Also, I don't want to build a team to D'Antoni's likings.
    Times may be different, but the object remains the same. Championships. If you have an opportunity to add HOF, superstar, star type players you do it. When has it ever been taboo to add the BEST?

    The same players you are trying to surround STAT and Melo with will be there to surround STAT, Melo and CP3.

  14. #44
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Times may be different, but the object remains the same. Championships. If you have an opportunity to add HOF, superstar, star type players you do it. When has it ever been taboo to add the BEST?

    The same players you are trying to surround STAT and Melo with will be there to surround STAT, Melo and CP3.
    Yep.

  15. #45
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    I don't understand....why is it that Dallas wins a ring with one superstar and suddenly everyone jumps off the bandwagon of the Knicks building their own big-3? Role Players? Where the **** we going with role players?

    Dallas might not have had household, superstar, "I get media hype" and commercials players....but they had dudes who were tops in the league at what they did. Let's not act like Terry isn't one of the better players in the open court and a dead-eye, knockdown, shooter. JJ Barea isn't one of the better penetrators in the league (dude kept getting Nash-like references from multiple people in the finals.) You know...Tyson Chandler isn't one of the better bigs in the game....Jason Kidd still isn't a great defender who now uses smarts as much as physicality...oh yea, and he's 2nd all time in assists and can run a team like a pilot flying a 737...Shawn Marion isn't still a damn good scorer 15-feet and down....he can't play both ends of the court....nah.....that cast of players were just a bunch of "role" guys the likes of Grant Hill and Mickael Pietrus.

    The equivalents to those players don't seem to be out there. I'm not trying to have a bunch of rag-tag ass *****s around STAT & Melo talking about "we're gonna do it Dallas' way.

    Like Clyde & Pearl said, the players who people wanna target right now, will be there with 3 complementary superstars on one team, primed and ready to dominate. Enough of this arm-chair GM, "watch me build a team that will get bounced in the conference finals, every. single. year." stuff.

    Miami got to the Finals with 2 and a half superstars, and their two biggest players don't even complement each other. Dallas got to the Finals by having 6 quality starters with some contributions from DeShawn, Haywood/Mahinmi, and Cardinal. Not Dirk, and the rest of them dudes over there.

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