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Thread: How to build a winner for 2011-2012. My summer offseason plan of attack

  1. #16
    Veteran OriginalKnickGrandson's Avatar
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    Can we just trade Balkman back to Denver for Mozgov , I realy wouldn't mind getting the "Gov" back.

    We also should be looking into doing whatever we need to do to try and pry D.Howard away from Orlando!

    On the cheap look at Kwami Brown or Joel Prezbilla imo.

  2. #17
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    Default Moving Forward

    Quality comments by mafra starting this thread but I think we are wasting our time speculating on what we may do with cap space going forward. We do not know what the new CBA will bring and nothing will happen until there is a new CBA..

    The following canniballizes my post in another thread.

    The current CBA expires Thursday June 30th. Thereafter we will certainly have a lock out until there is a new CBA. Although trades are possible until July 1st, I do not expect anything to happen until there is a new CBA.

    Shumpert and Harrelson have been drafted, but not signed. Perhaps if they are signed before the end of June, the current CBA will control what they get paid going forward. I doubt that they will be signed because any new CBA is hardly likely to increase rookie scale contracts. We want to have as much flexibility as possible as we go into a new CBA and are therefore unlikely to increase current commitments that will carry over and extend beyond the 2011 season.

    Other than Shumpert and Harrelson who will be ours under whatever terms will apply in a new CBA, and with the exceptions of Melo, Amare', Douglas and Balkman, we have no commitments beyond the 2011season.

    Though its not promising as to increased cap space, we do not know what the new CBA might bring and, therefore, what actual cap space or cap exceptions will be available for 2011 or 2012. Under the current CBA, as mafra notes, we are essentially out of cap space and would have to rely on mid-level exceptions, a combination of veteran minimums and minimum salaries or trades to sign new players.

    It makes sense to do nothing, or as little as possible, until we see what kind of room we will have under a new CBA. I expect a lock out that will last a couple of months at least. It will be hard to keep this site humming when all the action is the talk of a bunch of posturing suits. We are already speculating on Balkman's attire on the bench.

  3. #18
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    Blah blah blah blah...

    You're right...we don't know what would have come...

    So don't bother telling me how things would be different for him were he here...it's useless DRIVEL (if you are going to insult my writing, at least use the right word...drivel).

    So how do you know things wouldn't be the same? How do you know they would be different if we drafted him? How do you know he wouldn't still be the soft center that he currently is on the Nets?

    I'm going by the only facts we have:

    That right now, in this moment, Lopez is a soft-center with little to no rebounding capabilities.

    Everything else you posit is mere speculation, unprovable...so explain to me: If I can't say how things would be similar if we drafted him b/c it's too speculative, how can you say in the same breath things would be entirely different and that's not too speculative?

    Lopez's numbers aren't just low.

    They are ABYSMAL for a starting center in this league.

    I'm not saying we don't need a center. I'm saying Brook Lopez wouldn't have solved our problems.
    Word?

    Tue 11/30

    Brook Lopez drops 36pts on 44% shooting versus the New York Knicks. Throws in 6 rebounds, one block (and change), while hitting 84+% from the line.

    Sat 02/12

    Lopez drops 19 & 4 against us in 34 minutes.

    Wed 03/30

    Brook drops 26 & 9 on 52% shooting. Threw in a block and 3 assists to go along with that.

    Fri 04/08

    He drops another double digit score on us with 27. Granted he only had 2 rebounds but shot 64% in 32 minutes of action.

    Do I need to contrast this with what our center(s) dropped? Don't think so.

    _____________________________________

    Again, Lopez isn't the end all be all, and quite frankly the larger point is that a serviceable big is paramount when building a winner.

    We don't talk about a second year player and say "what has he done"- we talk about his potential. At 7'0 240lbs he avg. 15.5 & 7 in college- more than serviceable, plenty of potential.

    As I've said the center position takes longer to develop in comparison to others. Hence why he should of and could of been a project when we decided to rebuild. And as a rookie his acquisition can be looked at from a financially strategic perspective. Its better to acquire a big body and mold him through the draft and reduce the risk and cost involved by doing so via trade or free agency.

    When "building a team" is decided, and considering the historic time table as well as abundant costs of this vital cog, it becomes apparent that a team should take advantage if said player becomes available in the draft, if only for size and depth.

    At 6'10 220 Gallo avg. 13 & 3 in Italy. So who was softer? And what does soft have to do with anything? Is this boxing or MMA?

    The fact remains that in player valuation the bigger picture suggests Gallinari types are more attainable than Lopez types. Added Lopez types become more in demand, more expensive, and less available over time. They appreciate whether by demand, performance, or lack of supply.

    When we agree that "we need a center"- we agree that "we had access to a center". Thats all. Dribble or drivel, it all equates to mistakes in valuation.

    The same mistake you make by presenting this "soft" angle. What's soft is our defense along with Jared Jeffries. What's soft is our ability to recognize we had a fine center available two years ago and realize now we are still paying for that mistake. And what's "hard" and another unmentioned fact is the "hard" Gallo broke his back early and played in 28 games, was replaced, and we still are having this discussion.

    I wonder why?

  4. #19
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    WORD?

    11-30-2010 Brook Lopez drops a staggering 36 with FIVE REBOUNDS (!!) in a Nets loss v. a Knicks team who can't rebound.

    12-03-2010 Brook Lopez lights up the board again with THIRTEEN points and an (oh my goodness) TWO rebounds in 38 minutes in a Nets loss v. a Charlotte team with no center.

    12-22-2010 Brook Lopez ripping up the paint dropping 16 points with FOUR REBOUNDS, unbelievable performance!

    01-07-2011 Brook Lopez does the unthinkable, in 28 minutes dropping 14 points with an unreal 4 rebounds...

    01-14-2011 + 01-15-2011 Brook Lopez shows the West Coast how it's done, where in two games he gets just under 70ish total points, and, wait for it...NINE REBOUNDS TOTAL over TWO GAMES!

    I could go on and on but you get the point...what does Lopez give us...a scorer (at best) who can't rebound. This team doesn't need scorers. It needs rebounders.


    Exactly...

    We have a soft center in Jared Jeffries. Nobody said Jeffries was great.

    And here we are.

    Still looking for a center.

    So what would Lopez do? We'd be in the same situation. Looking for a center. With a soft center who can't rebound.

    This has nothing to do with Gallinari. Gallinari might be soft, he also doesn't play center. You can survive with a soft swingman. You can't survive with a center who can't rebound. Which is what Lopez is.
    Last edited by KBlack25; Jun 27, 2011 at 18:11.

  5. #20
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    The things we're forced to live with, eh? Sigh.

    Who would have ever thought it would come to this at the start of last season?

    I'd like to know what you and others would attempt with Billups' expiring. Needless to say, it's our one chip as we chase a 'chip. That wanting to know is, of course, with the exclusion of Chris Paul, who I don't think we can afford to obtain considering our comparative salary scape against Miami's. We'll be fighting tooth and nail with them for EC supremacy, hopefully.

    Kwame Brown, btw, would be my choice out of those players. He smells, but he's as close to what we need as we could possibly obtain.
    Billups is a winner. He is respected. He has enough credibility that he can decide who gets the ball: Carmelo or Stoudemire. Remember the end of game 2? Douglas failed to give Amar'e a look down the stretch... Any rookie, or young player, will struggle to make the correct decisions. I want the ball in Billups' hands at the end of the game. He knows what to do with the rock.

    Billups will benefit from the lockout. This will be a shortened season (ala 1999). The extra rest will help his body and mind, and allow him to get even more comfortable running D'antoni's offense.

    Finally, his contract will come in handy if/when we need to make a mid-season move. It's not like there's a salary-dump somewhere we could exchange him for. Chris Kaman work for you? Not like last year when DAL scooped up Tyson Chandler. AND, if we do dump him then we don't have a PG.

    Sure. I think the option to let him walk was something we thought about. But the only "attractive" free agents on the market, whom we could use, were of the restricted variety. Marc Gasol and DeAndre Jordan (too bad Walsh didn't buy an extra pick for this cat) are sort of still under the control of their respective clubs. So why risk letting Billups walk and then have 2 holes if we couldn't pry one of those bigs away.

    Here's the plan, I assume:

    1- You have to preserve 2012 flexibility because the free agents are too good. Chances are Deron or Paul or Howard or something will join forces with our dynamic duo. The 2011 f/a class is just not as good. PLUS, Knicks really do not have much cap space this year.

    Trade Douglas for Ridnour; spend cash for Jordan or Gasol; convince a Crawford or Richardson to take less money. Is this a much better route? Who knows.

    2- Knicks realize a lockout is coming and this will actually benefit NY, b/c of Amar'e and Billups. It hurt us in the draft b/c a few players decided to stay in school, meaning we really didn't have much talent left when our pick arrived... But otherwise all is good.

    If there is a lockout, the good news is what will happen in free agency. There will be a frenzy when f/a begins. We can only hope this makes it more likely that players accept 1-yr deals. Knicks play at MSG in NYC, which is a good thing. We have plenty of minutes for any PF/C, shooter, PG who want playing time; AND, best of all, we offer a chance to win with our BIG-3, along with a player-friendly system.

    I THINK THE GOAL... the roll of the dice... is that we should be able to field a viable rotation going this direction... as good as if we decided to spend our capital this offseason. Too much uncertainty now, and not enough room to work with under the cap.

    We will hope to lure a starting C, who will take less to come here. Kwame Brown, Aaron Gray or Nazr Muhammed probably targets we'll look at for a starter. If this doesn't work, Knicks will turn there attention to safety in numbers and look at Foster, Kurt Thomas, T-Battie, Troy Murphy, Josh McRoberts, Reggie Evans type.

    IF we can get 1 or 2 from the above group, add this to Turiaf and either Jorts or Jerome Jordan... We should be fine.

    If it were me... Murphy or McRoberts would thrive in D'ant's system. Rebound and shoot the 3. Add a bruiser with that: A Kurt Thomas or Jeff Foster. I'm cool with that. Who is going to give any of these 4 more than a 1 yr deal?

    THEN... bring in the next Shawne Williams. IS this B-Wells or M-Redd? Who knows. But find that diamond-in-the-rough again.

    THEN... try to convinve a J-Crawford, Grant Hill, Jason Richards or Shane Battier to come to NY for a chance to win a title. They've earned enough money in their careers... Can we nab a vet like this?

    Finally... I would think long and hard about trading a Douglas &/or Fields... I would look for a backup PG who can run the pick and roll (Luke Ridnour) or a Lebron stopper (Dahntay Jones). If I felt I was better off keeping those 2 young players b/c the alternative doesn't make us significantly better... would think long and hard about signing a DeShaun Stevenson. Sure, there is baggage, but he proved he could get in Lebron's head and he definitely did his job defending the guy.


    Billups (Douglas, Shumpert)
    Grant Hill (Fields, Rautins)
    Carmelo (Shawne Williams, Wells)
    Amar'e (Troy Murphy)
    Brown (Turiaf, Jordan or Jorts)

    This could be our 15-man roster. Which 12 would be active? Well, Rautins and Jordan or Jorts would be 2 inactive. Wells probably starts off inactive as well.

    We probably wont have enough cash to sign so many free agents... So maybe we have to make some deals. This means what? Turiaf gets dealt? Balkman for sure. Bill Walker likely. But Walker-Balkman combine for less than 3 mil. Toss in Turiaf, and there's 7 mil we could probably shed.

    That money could be used to resign Williams, grab Murphy and Wells, with barely enough left over the comvince Brown and Hill to come here.

    We'll see.

    SIDE NOTE: Would you deal Turiaf for Jeff Foster and Josh McRoberts? They have Hibbert and need to free up cap space to make a run at David West. We send Turiaf, Balkman & Walker. We get back two 7-footers, both of whom have expiring contracts. THEN, we can use (we hope) mid-level and vet exemptions (?) to sign a Brown & Grant Hill. Or just sign 1 guy (Crawford or Richardson)?

    Billups
    Crawford
    Melo
    Amar'e
    Brown

    Foster, McRoberts & Jerome Jordan give us size.
    Douglas, Fields, Williams & Shumpert provide some offense off the bench.

    I think this would be the dream scenario, but would take some charity on the part of Jamaal & Kwame.
    Last edited by mafra; Jun 28, 2011 at 09:46.

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