I want Paul, but w Nash I think we could win it all too.

keyser soze

Benchwarmer
Like in the Melo trade...some people swear we gave up too much while ignoring the fact that Felton, Wilson, and Gallo all had to go anyway so it was a matter of lose them now, or lose them later. There was never a scenario where we built a championship contender and kept all of those guys.
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This is the biggest single reason why all of the people against the Melo trade have no case.
 

keyser soze

Benchwarmer
We just play the waiting game. We're in no hurry to make a move, I don't think.

We could also sign Nash as a free agent after the end of this season. If we signed Nash, we could sign him to much less than we could sign CP3 and that would allow us to use some money to get some good defensive roleplayers like a solid C and backup PF that we've been lacking.
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The Rock says he liked your post, as well.
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
Seriously imagine how good this team would be if we signed a player like Tyson Chandler or something like that and then we picked up Steve Nash on a minimum contract so he could play at home and finally win a championship ring.

Nash, Carmelo, Amar'e, AND a really good defensive center, all on the same team?

Nobody could beat us.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
I could really see that happening tbh.

Nash
Shumpert
Melo
STAT
Dalembert

Pretty solid starting 5 if you ask me

How do we get Nash without trading Shumpert? Billups, Fields, and another player? I think that might be too much for a one year rental. I'd rather give up those kind of assets for a CP3 who signs an extension for us, like Melo.

And Dalembert would probably mess with our ability to make a run at a CP3, Dwight, or Deron, cause he's not taking a one year deal. That's why the Knicks are eyeing guys the likes of Kwame.

Our core is not done yet, patience people, Donnie had it planned so we could get a superstar every year starting in 2010. We got STAT, and instead of signing Melo we traded for him, and we have one to go. We'll either trade for him at the deadline, or sign him next season. Then we'll probably use the MLE for a big and give him a long term contract.

I know people want us to be contenders now, and I would like it too...but look at the Bulls. They went all in during the summer of 2010 and when it didn't work...now they have issues. How do they get their much needed 2? Trade? Who do they trade? Boozer, and then start Taj? Is there a team out there in need of a PF so much that they'd trade a OJ Mayo type player? No? Three team trade then? With who and for what? Do they throw the MLE at a guy like Jamal Crawford? Will he take it?

You know what questions we have? Who wants to join STAT and Melo and dominate this league? You, you, or you? And those three guys are all legit superstars. It's a great position to be in. As opposed to the Bulls, who even tho they had the MVP, aren't a title contender until they acquire another key piece along side of Rose in the backcourt, and getting that guy is gonna involve compromising their front-court, or compromising their bench. They put together what they thought would win a ring....and when it didn't...there's all sorts of issues now. Lets not make that mistake and fill out our roster with contracts that may or may not work and then have very little trade value in the future.
 

smokes

Huge Member
How do we get Nash without trading Shumpert? Billups, Fields, and another player? I think that might be too much for a one year rental. I'd rather give up those kind of assets for a CP3 who signs an extension for us, like Melo.

And Dalembert would probably mess with our ability to make a run at a CP3, Dwight, or Deron, cause he's not taking a one year deal. That's why the Knicks are eyeing guys the likes of Kwame.

Our core is not done yet, patience people, Donnie had it planned so we could get a superstar every year starting in 2010. We got STAT, and instead of signing Melo we traded for him, and we have one to go. We'll either trade for him at the deadline, or sign him next season. Then we'll probably use the MLE for a big and give him a long term contract.

I know people want us to be contenders now, and I would like it too...but look at the Bulls. They went all in during the summer of 2010 and when it didn't work...now they have issues. How do they get their much needed 2? Trade? Who do they trade? Boozer, and then start Taj? Is there a team out there in need of a PF so much that they'd trade a OJ Mayo type player? No? Three team trade then? With who and for what? Do they throw the MLE at a guy like Jamal Crawford? Will he take it?

You know what questions we have? Who wants to join STAT and Melo and dominate this league? You, you, or you? And those three guys are all legit superstars. It's a great position to be in. As opposed to the Bulls, who even tho they had the MVP, aren't a title contender until they acquire another key piece along side of Rose in the backcourt, and getting that guy is gonna involve compromising their front-court, or compromising their bench. They put together what they thought would win a ring....and when it didn't...there's all sorts of issues now. Lets not make that mistake and fill out our roster with contracts that may or may not work and then have very little trade value in the future.

To be fair, I think the Bulls problems are not that big. Keep Boozer because they need that inside scoring presence and use Gibson to get an SG. Gibson has great upside great energy he is a beast IMO and has easily enough trade value to land them a good SG. You may be right that there aren't many teams with a huge lack at PF and I can't be bothered to look around to see where that trade might work but for someone with Gibsons age and game they should be able to land a good SG.

Point being, Bulls are a lot closer than we are, if you ask me.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
To be fair, I think the Bulls problems are not that big. Keep Boozer because they need that inside scoring presence and use Gibson to get an SG. Gibson has great upside great energy he is a beast IMO and has easily enough trade value to land them a good SG. You may be right that there aren't many teams with a huge lack at PF and I can't be bothered to look around to see where that trade might work but for someone with Gibsons age and game they should be able to land a good SG.

Point being, Bulls are a lot closer than we are, if you ask me.

Only problem is, the Bulls seem to be higher on Gibson than they are on Boozer. They'd rather keep Gibson's talent at the pay range of a dude taken in the mid-late first round, as opposed to Boozer's wildly inconsistent play in the playoffs at a much higher pay range.

Plus, I say when you're relying on other teams to part with their talent as opposed to just waiting for one o three guys to occupy a spot....you're not that far ahead of the game.

Everything the Bulls can do is based on another team agreeing with whatever they're willing to trade, their destiny is in other teams' hands. Unless they get a J-Rich or Jamal Crawford for the MLE. If the Bulls don't get a shooter, who can also occasionally create for himself and others in the starting lineup with Rose, they're not quite as close as you think. It would be the Cavs all over again. The MVP, who controls the ball, and when teams gameplan for him in the playoffs...there are no alternatives. The Bulls success begins and ends with Rose, and it's gonna mostly end in the playoffs with this current, failing, model. It's not even about which teams need a PF, it's about which teams have what the Bulls need, as well as being willing to accept what the Bulls want to trade.

Our "not so close" situation is having 2 legit superstars and room for a third. There are three candidates for that third spot. Our destiny lies in the connected braincells of at least one of those three individuals.

The Mavs had their success because Barea, Terry, and occasionally Marion got their shots in their spots (Dirk is a given)....because they could. They benefitted from ball movement and just from being good enough to get what they wanted when they needed to. That's what the Bulls, and every other championship hopeful wants to achieve...right now the Bulls have defense and rebounding on lock, and they have one guy on offense who can get his and create for others. If the Knicks get CP3 or Deron...we'd have two superstar who we can run the offense thru...inside/out, and Amar'e who can operate 15 feet and down. If we got Dwight....well the NBA would just cease to exist.

I'll still take a scenario of "we have Melo and STAT....wanna join us and win?"
over "pllllllleeeeeeeeeaaaasssssse give us Mayo....so what if you have Zach and Arthur, plllleeeeeeeaaaaaasssssseee we need Mayo, we'll give you...yet another PF, PLLLEEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEE."
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
And Dalembert would probably mess with our ability to make a run at a CP3, Dwight, or Deron, cause he's not taking a one year deal. That's why the Knicks are eyeing guys the likes of Kwame.

See, I've been flirting with getting Nash on a small contract INSTEAD of those three and then using the remaining money to pursue a free agent C.

I think NASH + Free Agent Center who can block shots and rebound is way better than simply having CP3 by himself. CP3 is better than Nash but he's not better to the point where the gap between the two is worth giving up a roleplaying center who can protect the paint which is what EVERY single NBA Champion has had in the past 20 years.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
See, I've been flirting with getting Nash on a small contract INSTEAD of those three and then using the remaining money to pursue a free agent C.

I think NASH + Free Agent Center who can block shots and rebound is way better than simply having CP3 by himself. CP3 is better than Nash but he's not better to the point where the gap between the two is worth giving up a roleplaying center who can protect the paint which is what EVERY single NBA Champion has had in the past 20 years.

Only problem w that is CP3 gives us a longer window to win a title. We'd have probably 4-6 yrs worth of contention versus having Nash and a higher caliber C.. and 1-2 yrs to win one. Who's to say once we get CP3 we don't get lucky w a solid draft pick or a discount signing that we couldn't normally pull off w'out being so close to winning a chip.

Let me just say this again.. if you're team is overwhelming at a level teams can't contain.. and you can defend the perimeter you can get away w not having a serious role-playing center. But you do need at least three serviceable guys to hang w teams. I believe we'd be fine w a three-headed combo of something like Aaron Gray, Dalembert and Turiaf, or Gray, Jerome Jordan (if he can play) and Okeafor. W a combo of Paul , Amare and Melo that would be enough in my opinion.

Remember the Bulls of the 90's? I always think of them when I hear people talking about how we need this or that center. They, at a later point in the dynasty, had a combo of Longley, Wennington and Bison Dele (formerly known as Brian Carson Williams) ;) during the 96-97 season, and later Longley, Wennington and Joe Klein during the 97-98 season. Those are two pretty awful looking three-headed monsters right there fellas.. Those Bulls teams could get away w having that caliber center because they were too good on offense, due to having two ultra efficient and dominant players, and also because they could flat out defend the perimeter. None of the centers listed above were great shotblockers or rebounders. They simply clogged the paint and were a presence.

W the awesome combo of Paul, Melo and Amare. I believe we would be somewhere near that level of Pippen and Jordan, ie championship level (not saying they'd be as good). We'd only need to find serviceable pieces to go around them during our 4-6 yr window of contention. I also believe Melo would have to make a commitment to focus more on defending his position at a high level. I think if we got Paul his consistency would be better because Paul always gives at a high level defensively and he'll call you out if he doesn't think your bringing it. Maybe w a player like Melo, an all-star type he just gives a glare.. not exactly sure how it would go. But Paul fumes at shet like that.. Melo knows this going into this whole three-star prospect and I think would just make the personal commitment once Paul signed. Who knows maybe he'll just start playing better D this year to get himself in the mode. Point is he knows what it takes to win a championship and what he brings on the defensive end right now aint enough (alot of speculation right there I know).

Too many people on the board still underestimate how dominating those three will be. That needs to change.
 
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SSj4Wingzero

All Star
How dominating would it be to have Nash, too? Let's not forget that Steve Nash is probably both the best shooter in the NBA AND the best passer in the NBA.

If we picked up Nash and got a bunch of good roleplayers along with him, why couldn't that team be better than one with Chris Paul? Yes, we give up A LITTLE offense on the outside and a ton of defense on the outside, but we'd then have the cap space to sign more roleplayers who can play defense as well as a big body in the middle.

Let's not forget that the biggest reason the Mavericks won the title this year was not Dirk Nowitzki's shooting on Jason Kidd's passing but rather TYSON CHANDLER who was the main reason they were able to get past the teams who normally beat them by owning them in the paint.
 

RunningJumper

Super Moderator
How dominating would it be to have Nash, too? Let's not forget that Steve Nash is probably both the best shooter in the NBA AND the best passer in the NBA.

If we picked up Nash and got a bunch of good roleplayers along with him, why couldn't that team be better than one with Chris Paul? Yes, we give up A LITTLE offense on the outside and a ton of defense on the outside, but we'd then have the cap space to sign more roleplayers who can play defense as well as a big body in the middle.

Let's not forget that the biggest reason the Mavericks won the title this year was not Dirk Nowitzki's shooting on Jason Kidd's passing but rather TYSON CHANDLER who was the main reason they were able to get past the teams who normally beat them by owning them in the paint.
Yup.

*Guy Gets Past Paul And His Teammates Stare At Opposing Players Looking At His Shoes*
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
How dominating would it be to have Nash, too? Let's not forget that Steve Nash is probably both the best shooter in the NBA AND the best passer in the NBA.

If we picked up Nash and got a bunch of good roleplayers along with him, why couldn't that team be better than one with Chris Paul? Yes, we give up A LITTLE offense on the outside and a ton of defense on the outside, but we'd then have the cap space to sign more roleplayers who can play defense as well as a big body in the middle.

Let's not forget that the biggest reason the Mavericks won the title this year was not Dirk Nowitzki's shooting on Jason Kidd's passing but rather TYSON CHANDLER who was the main reason they were able to get past the teams who normally beat them by owning them in the paint.

I hear what your saying and I'm obviously I'm open to it, I just think it's more important to have that larger window to win it all. You get that by acquiring a younger Paul.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
I hear what your saying and I'm obviously I'm open to it, I just think it's more important to have that larger window to win it all. You get that by acquiring a younger Paul.

Exactamuno.

We're going to have a good team, which = low draft picks. So let's only get Nash if we're 100% confident that CP3 will sign as an FA next summer. Because if we strike out on CP3, and Nash leaves/retires in a season or two and we're sitting at 24+ in the first round of the draft....while also over the salary cap and only have the MLE to offer....well....we're ****ed. Cause we'd need a PG and really have very few options.

Or we go get CP3.

One of those scenarios looks a lot bleaker than the other.
 

RunningJumper

Super Moderator
I hear what your saying and I'm obviously I'm open to it, I just think it's more important to have that larger window to win it all. You get that by acquiring a younger Paul.
Well think of this way. Let's say if we get Nash, let's give him two years of being a top PG. Third year he either retires (hope not :() or he can't play much.

Nash's knees are in better shape than Paul's. Paul looked like he didn't even try a lot in the regular season he was so cautious of it. In the Playoffs when he turned it on it was mesmerizing because it was so long since he played that way. I was hoping for that to come back, didn't know if he had it in him or not at the time.

So, I'm gonna guess if you paired him with Amar'e and Carmelo, he wouldn't need to be trying as hard in he regular season, but still, we don't know how bad his knees really are.

Right now, Nash is flat out a superstar, and THE best offensive PG in the game. Money and team, he's a better option imo.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Well think of this way. Let's say if we get Nash, let's give him two years of being a top PG. Third year he either retires (hope not :() or he can't play much.

Nash's knees are in better shape than Paul's. Paul looked like he didn't even try a lot in the regular season he was so cautious of it. In the Playoff when he turned it on it was mesmerizing because it was so long long he played that way. I was hoping for that to come back, didn't know if he had it in him or not at the time.

So, I'm gonna guess if you paired him with Amar'e and Carmelo, he wouldn't need to be trying as hard in he regular season, but still, we don't know how bad his knees really are.

Right now, Nash is flat out a superstar, and THE best offensive PG in the game. Money and team, he's a better option imo.

Then what happens in 2014 when we're over the cap (if there's no hard cap...which there won't be), sitting at like 26th in the draft, and only have a $5M MLE?

Paul is the safer option, without a doubt. We're not trying to win in all this year, and next and saying "well that was fun while it lasted....let's blow this up."

CP3 is younger, as a GM...that's all you need. If the medical staff clears him, you go get him. There's no sane reason not to. STAT had micro-fracture surgery on both knees ages ago and he got $100M.

Steve Nash was born in 1974. Stop it.
 

RunningJumper

Super Moderator
Then what happens in 2014 when we're over the cap (if there's no hard cap...which there won't be), sitting at like 26th in the draft, and only have a $5M MLE?

Paul is the safer option, without a doubt. We're not trying to win in all this year, and next and saying "well that was fun while it lasted....let's blow this up."

CP3 is younger, as a GM...that's all you need. If the medical staff clears him, you go get him. There's no sane reason not to. STAT had micro-fracture surgery on both knees ages ago and he got $100M.

Steve Nash was born in 1974. Stop it.
Well, I can't comment on the cap thing since I don't understand much of it, nor have I heavily looked into it.

Really think about this though. Would we have enough offensive firepower? Yeah. Would the flow of the offense not only be fluent, it would also be fun to watch and for them to play? Yeah. Answer me this though. What if we run into a team such as the Lakers? Did you see Okafor try and stop Pau and Bynum? He's a solid defensive center and, even though the refs were being stupid, they were a load to handle regardless. Please don't say him being two inches under seven foot has anything to do with it. We're not finding anyone that good if we get Paul unless we strike gold.

Do you see Chris Paul getting Stoudemire to lock down Pau, Bynum?

Scoring isn't our problem, I really do think we should NOT WAIT for a new coach. I mean, you guys want Paul to improve our offensive, watch what would happen with Adelman on our team.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Well, I can't comment on the cap thing since I don't understand much of it, nor have I heavily looked into it.

Really think about this though. Would we have enough offensive firepower? Yeah. Would the flow of the offense not only be fluent, it would also be fun to watch and for them to play? Yeah. Answer me this though. What if we run into a team such as the Lakers? Did you see Okafor try and stop Pau and Bynum? He's a solid defensive center and, even though the refs were being stupid, they were a load to handle regardless. Please don't say him being two inches under seven foot has anything to do with it. We're not finding anyone that good if we get Paul unless we strike gold.

Do you see Chris Paul getting Stoudemire to lock down Pau, Bynum?

Scoring isn't our problem, I really do think we should NOT WAIT for a new coach. I mean, you guys want Paul to improve our offensive, watch what would happen with Adelman on our team.

That's not really fair tho, you have to understand the cap stuff when it comes to building a team, otherwise you're setting yourself back and you dig a hole you can't get out of.

There are no worthy centers that we can afford this year. Tyson Chandler is gonna get paid, and Dalembert is gonna look for a multiyear deal, and unless he takes the full MLE (which is 5 million dollars) he's gonna go elsewhere and get more money. So, that leaves us with the likes of Kwame Brown and Joel Przybilla. We can get those guys, whether we have Paul or not....so there's no reason to not get him.

It makes no sense to sacrifice two positions. Because this center that everyone keeps talking about...doesn't seem to exist, at least not this year. So then we exchange a mid-30s PG and assets for a late-30s PG and a backup center (let's be real, Lopez isn't locking down Pau either), and then have no viable way to replace our PG when Nash retires at like 38-39. Neither Brandon Knight, nor Kemba fell to us @ 17 in this past draft, where are we going with mid to late 20s picks? Then we'd have to move STAT or Melo to get a PG or move up in the draft....or we can just add CP3 to those guys and then still get a 7 footer on the team.
 

RunningJumper

Super Moderator
That's not really fair tho, you have to understand the cap stuff when it comes to building a team, otherwise you're setting yourself back and you dig a hole you can't get out of.

There are no worthy centers that we can afford this year. Tyson Chandler is gonna get paid, and Dalembert is gonna look for a multiyear deal, and unless he takes the full MLE (which is 5 million dollars) he's gonna go elsewhere and get more money. So, that leaves us with the likes of Kwame Brown and Joel Przybilla. We can get those guys, whether we have Paul or not....so there's no reason to not get him.

It makes no sense to sacrifice two positions. Because this center that everyone keeps talking about...doesn't seem to exist, at least not this year. So then we exchange a mid-30s PG and assets for a late-30s PG and a backup center (let's be real, Lopez isn't locking down Pau either), and then have no viable way to replace our PG when Nash retires at like 38-39. Neither Brandon Knight, nor Kemba fell to us @ 17 in this past draft, where are we going with mid to late 20s picks? Then we'd have to move STAT or Melo to get a PG or move up in the draft....or we can just add CP3 to those guys and then still get a 7 footer on the team.
You confused me, wouldn't having Chris Paul make things even worse for our cap situation? You're talking about 2014 (when Amar'e and/or Melo's contracts are up?) which confuses me more.

You bring up a good point in the sense that we pretty much have a low chance of getting a good enough center in free agency. What we should do if we don't get somebody such as Dalembert is get a good bench. Let's face it, Chris Paul's defense isn't gonna change the lack of defense near the basket.

To give a clearer picture, if there wasn't even Dalembert available, I'd still go for the bench. Just because a center isn't available doesn't mean you go for the best available player at a position that would be best used for a flow in offense in an already high scoring team. The only significant flaw to our offense is D'Antoni.

People forget we have STAT and Melo. We're not in a desperate need to get another max over a bench.
 
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nuckles2k2

Superstar
You confused me, wouldn't having Chris Paul make things even worse for our cap situation? You're talking about 2014 (when Amar'e and/or Melo's contracts are up?) which confuses me more.

You bring up a good point in the sense that we pretty much have a low chance of getting a good enough center in free agency. What we should do if we don't get somebody such as Dalembert is get a good bench. Let's face it, Chris Paul's defense isn't gonna change the lack of defense near the basket.

To give a clearer picture, if there wasn't even Dalembert available, I'd still go for the bench. Just because a center isn't available doesn't mean you go for the best available player at a position that would be best used for a flow in offense in an already high scoring team. The only significant flaw to our offense is D'Antoni.

People forget we have STAT and Melo. We're not in a desperate need to get another max over a bench.

We have the Bird Right for both Amar'e and Carmelo, we can resign both guys. We'd also have other monies on the books as well. If we're a solid team...with low draft picks...and over the cap...and no point guard, we. are. in. trouble. Then actually, we might lose one of those two guys to FA if they go chasing a ring because they're in their early 30s and their current team can't put the proper talent around them because of the cap situation and lack of maneuverability.

CP3's money on the books is only "bad" if you'd rather give that money to Shane Battier, Grant Hill, Peja, and some other old bodies to fill out the roster not realizing that those same dudes can be had for less money if they're joining CP3, Amar'e, and Melo. We'd have $18M, give or take, if Billups' and Turiaf's money comes of the books at season's end. (it's actually less than that with the annual increase of STAT and Melo's salaries) Who is so enticing that we'd have to actually give them real long term, probably untradable, deals? I still don't understand why you wouldn't get CP3. It's a position of need, and a player under the age of 28 who's the best in the game at that position. If it doesn't work....you can trade him for what you need....it's Chris freaking Paul.

There really is no excuse for not adding CP3 to complete the core of him, Amar'e and Carmelo. Absolutely no reason. You can still draft players for the supporting cast, use the MLE every. single. year. for the supporting cast, and sign free agents for the supporting cast.

Dwight, CP3, or Deron, in that order. If we can get one, we're going to dominate. Don't look at the Heat's struggles and say "see....it's not needed" because there's a difference between "ball dominate wing + ball dominate wing" and "top 3 PG in the game + most versatile scorer in the game + unguardable big" or "most versatile scorer + unguardable big + Dwight Howard"

There's no sane reason to pass up either one of those scenarios. And a handful of "forget-me-nots" is silly.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Pretty much, what I'm saying is this....the dudes you want us to get...the bench and the center to protect the paint....are the same caliber of guys we're going to have to target whether or not we have CP3. Unless we throw the majority of the $14-16M at one guy.

The list of the best unrestricted free agents in 2012 not named Deron, CP3, or Dwight is something like this: Ramon Sessions, Hinrich, Ray Allen, Garnett, Diaw, Baron Davis, Mo Williams, Jason Terry, Kidd, Andre Miller, Maxiell, Ben Wallace, Posey, Kaman, House, Big Z, Farmar, and Elton Brand.

Some of those guys have player options and might not hit the market, but I threw their name in there anyway. I don't see your center in there, and I don't know why we wouldn't give Paul his deal, maybe sign a rotation guy like a Diaw or Posey, and then throw the MLE at someone else and hope they take it.
 
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