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Thread: I want Paul, but w Nash I think we could win it all too.

  1. #16
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    I don't think Shumpert would've fallen into the second round. I don't see an excellent defender and monster athlete like Shumpert falling into the second round when defense is at such a premium nowadays.

    I do think that Shumpert was picked because he'd actually get minutes in NY as opposed to Singleton and Faried who probably would've played 6 minutes a game off the bench at best.

    In any case I think he's good to have if we dump Fields or Douglas in a trade for CP3 and/or D12 (I've given up on Deron even though we all know Mike D has a huge hardon for Deron, plus CP3 is better).

    With Nash? I think we could sign Nash as a free agent. I think Nash would take the minimum or close to it in order to win a title and play near his home (he lives in NY in the off-season), and with the money we save by getting Nash instead of going after a superstar we could pick up a good defensive center since those guys do not come cheap.

    Imagine this:

    PG - Nash
    SG - Shumpert
    SF - Carmelo
    PF - Amar'e
    C - (say someone of Dalembert's caliber).

    That's a pretty damned awesome starting 5.

  2. #17
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    I dunno. I know what you mean by a frontcourt guy but I don't really think there was anybody in this draft worth having, really. I think the Shumpert pick was definitely made with the idea of trading him to Phoenix in mind, but I also think it works on a higher level - if we have Shumpert play the SG position for us that allows Landry Fields to move into the 6th man G/F role for us which is something that we really need, a good scorer to back up Carmelo off the bench, since Fields profiles more as a 6th man than as a starting SG anyway. We still don't really have a backup at PF unless we re-sign Jared Jeffries, but we can't deny that Shumpert certainly DOES fit a need that we have (backcourt defense - let's be real, our backcourt defense was a joke this season).

  3. #18
    Member NYallDay's Avatar
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    agree. plus i dont believe drafting undersized (6'8) "power forwards' with no offensive skill whatsoever qualifies as 'shore'ing up our frontline'. on another note, we cant keep gutting out team out....as another poster said in this thread, CP3, DWill or D12 have no incentive to demand a trade or get to their desired team during mid-season. they'll get the same money regardless. plus they need to understand that if the get traded, the team they go to will be filled with 3 stars and scrubs. and no one in their right mind wants that.


    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    I dunno. I know what you mean by a frontcourt guy but I don't really think there was anybody in this draft worth having, really. I think the Shumpert pick was definitely made with the idea of trading him to Phoenix in mind, but I also think it works on a higher level - if we have Shumpert play the SG position for us that allows Landry Fields to move into the 6th man G/F role for us which is something that we really need, a good scorer to back up Carmelo off the bench, since Fields profiles more as a 6th man than as a starting SG anyway. We still don't really have a backup at PF unless we re-sign Jared Jeffries, but we can't deny that Shumpert certainly DOES fit a need that we have (backcourt defense - let's be real, our backcourt defense was a joke this season).

  4. #19
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NYallDay
    agree. plus i dont believe drafting undersized (6'8) "power forwards' with no offensive skill whatsoever qualifies as 'shore'ing up our frontline'. on another note, we cant keep gutting out team out....as another poster said in this thread, CP3, DWill or D12 have no incentive to demand a trade or get to their desired team during mid-season. they'll get the same money regardless. plus they need to understand that if the get traded, the team they go to will be filled with 3 stars and scrubs. and no one in their right mind wants that.
    Well if we get a third star, we're going to have to surround them with affordable contracts anyway. People have to understand that we can't have our cake and eat it too. Like in the Melo trade...some people swear we gave up too much while ignoring the fact that Felton, Wilson, and Gallo all had to go anyway so it was a matter of lose them now, or lose them later. There was never a scenario where we built a championship contender and kept all of those guys.

    If the new CBA still has the Larry Bird exception, then there's an extra year of salary and the player's Bird Rights which would allow us to exceed the cap to resign those guys in the future. That would be more than enough of a reason for them to try to get traded.

    But personally, I believe the competition to fill that last spot is all the reason any one of those dudes need to try to get traded here ASAP. If one sits back and says "oh I'll just sign there in the summer" while another is trying to be traded here...do you really want to have to deal with the Heat and the Knicks?

    Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm a survivalist or something. But ****....one team has LeBron James AND Dwyane Wade....another team has Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire....and room for one more, and there's a feasible reason that I don't try my damnedest to be that 3rd piece added? **** would I be doing sitting back and saying "oh well...I'll just wait it out" and let someone else take that spot? Then it's LBJ, and Wade on one team....Amar'e, Carmelo, and [insert superstar] on another team...and where am I going? How am I getting past either of those teams? Why was I so stupid?

    There's no way these dudes aren't mulling over these scenarios. They'll never say it publicly, the media won't report on it....but they're human, and they're not dumb.

  5. #20
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    A few thoughts:

    1) I don't buy the notion that the Suns covet Shumpert enough to make them change their inclination to hang on to their uber-popular, franchise player. Sure, they may have been impressed with his physical prowess during his pre-draft workouts just as much as the Knicks were, but it's quite a leap of faith to surmise that they would be willing to part with their meal ticket in a struggling economy just to acquire his services. The reason the Suns have been so hesitant to trade Nash has very little to do with basketball and everything to do with the fact that he is, perhaps, the most popular player in the history of their franchise (Sir Charles being the only possible exception). He sells jerseys and fills the arena, and for a small-market team just trying to tread water in these uncertain times, that is the top priority.

    2) Even if the Suns would be willing to give us Nash, let's say for Billups, Shumpert, and either Fields or Toney D, I'm not sure I would be interested. Don't get me wrong, I love Nash and still view him as an elite pg, even at his advanced age. But the guy is 37. Melo and Amare will be 27 and 29 next season, respectively. We want a pg who can team up with those guys over the next 5 years or so. Not someone who (maybe) has two years left. Now, the counterargument is that landing Nash would immediately make us a contender and we become a win-now team with a 2-3 year window to win a ring. Unfortunately, this simply isn't the case, because, without a legit starting center, we aren't winning a ring, regardless of who the pg is. And the earliest we can acquire a legit 5 is next offseason. So, in other words, Nash will be 38 going on 39 before we will truly be ready to contend for a ring with him. I'm sorry but giving up Shumpert, Billups contract, and other assets is a bit steep for (maybe) 1-2 years of contention.

  6. #21
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    Like in the Melo trade...some people swear we gave up too much while ignoring the fact that Felton, Wilson, and Gallo all had to go anyway so it was a matter of lose them now, or lose them later. There was never a scenario where we built a championship contender and kept all of those guys.
    .


    This is the biggest single reason why all of the people against the Melo trade have no case.

  7. #22
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    We just play the waiting game. We're in no hurry to make a move, I don't think.

    We could also sign Nash as a free agent after the end of this season. If we signed Nash, we could sign him to much less than we could sign CP3 and that would allow us to use some money to get some good defensive roleplayers like a solid C and backup PF that we've been lacking.
    .


    The Rock says he liked your post, as well.

  8. #23
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    Seriously imagine how good this team would be if we signed a player like Tyson Chandler or something like that and then we picked up Steve Nash on a minimum contract so he could play at home and finally win a championship ring.

    Nash, Carmelo, Amar'e, AND a really good defensive center, all on the same team?

    Nobody could beat us.

  9. #24
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    I could really see that happening tbh.

    Nash
    Shumpert
    Melo
    STAT
    Dalembert

    Pretty solid starting 5 if you ask me

  10. #25
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    I could really see that happening tbh.

    Nash
    Shumpert
    Melo
    STAT
    Dalembert

    Pretty solid starting 5 if you ask me
    How do we get Nash without trading Shumpert? Billups, Fields, and another player? I think that might be too much for a one year rental. I'd rather give up those kind of assets for a CP3 who signs an extension for us, like Melo.

    And Dalembert would probably mess with our ability to make a run at a CP3, Dwight, or Deron, cause he's not taking a one year deal. That's why the Knicks are eyeing guys the likes of Kwame.

    Our core is not done yet, patience people, Donnie had it planned so we could get a superstar every year starting in 2010. We got STAT, and instead of signing Melo we traded for him, and we have one to go. We'll either trade for him at the deadline, or sign him next season. Then we'll probably use the MLE for a big and give him a long term contract.

    I know people want us to be contenders now, and I would like it too...but look at the Bulls. They went all in during the summer of 2010 and when it didn't work...now they have issues. How do they get their much needed 2? Trade? Who do they trade? Boozer, and then start Taj? Is there a team out there in need of a PF so much that they'd trade a OJ Mayo type player? No? Three team trade then? With who and for what? Do they throw the MLE at a guy like Jamal Crawford? Will he take it?

    You know what questions we have? Who wants to join STAT and Melo and dominate this league? You, you, or you? And those three guys are all legit superstars. It's a great position to be in. As opposed to the Bulls, who even tho they had the MVP, aren't a title contender until they acquire another key piece along side of Rose in the backcourt, and getting that guy is gonna involve compromising their front-court, or compromising their bench. They put together what they thought would win a ring....and when it didn't...there's all sorts of issues now. Lets not make that mistake and fill out our roster with contracts that may or may not work and then have very little trade value in the future.

  11. #26
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    How do we get Nash without trading Shumpert? Billups, Fields, and another player? I think that might be too much for a one year rental. I'd rather give up those kind of assets for a CP3 who signs an extension for us, like Melo.

    And Dalembert would probably mess with our ability to make a run at a CP3, Dwight, or Deron, cause he's not taking a one year deal. That's why the Knicks are eyeing guys the likes of Kwame.

    Our core is not done yet, patience people, Donnie had it planned so we could get a superstar every year starting in 2010. We got STAT, and instead of signing Melo we traded for him, and we have one to go. We'll either trade for him at the deadline, or sign him next season. Then we'll probably use the MLE for a big and give him a long term contract.

    I know people want us to be contenders now, and I would like it too...but look at the Bulls. They went all in during the summer of 2010 and when it didn't work...now they have issues. How do they get their much needed 2? Trade? Who do they trade? Boozer, and then start Taj? Is there a team out there in need of a PF so much that they'd trade a OJ Mayo type player? No? Three team trade then? With who and for what? Do they throw the MLE at a guy like Jamal Crawford? Will he take it?

    You know what questions we have? Who wants to join STAT and Melo and dominate this league? You, you, or you? And those three guys are all legit superstars. It's a great position to be in. As opposed to the Bulls, who even tho they had the MVP, aren't a title contender until they acquire another key piece along side of Rose in the backcourt, and getting that guy is gonna involve compromising their front-court, or compromising their bench. They put together what they thought would win a ring....and when it didn't...there's all sorts of issues now. Lets not make that mistake and fill out our roster with contracts that may or may not work and then have very little trade value in the future.
    To be fair, I think the Bulls problems are not that big. Keep Boozer because they need that inside scoring presence and use Gibson to get an SG. Gibson has great upside great energy he is a beast IMO and has easily enough trade value to land them a good SG. You may be right that there aren't many teams with a huge lack at PF and I can't be bothered to look around to see where that trade might work but for someone with Gibsons age and game they should be able to land a good SG.

    Point being, Bulls are a lot closer than we are, if you ask me.

  12. #27
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smokes
    To be fair, I think the Bulls problems are not that big. Keep Boozer because they need that inside scoring presence and use Gibson to get an SG. Gibson has great upside great energy he is a beast IMO and has easily enough trade value to land them a good SG. You may be right that there aren't many teams with a huge lack at PF and I can't be bothered to look around to see where that trade might work but for someone with Gibsons age and game they should be able to land a good SG.

    Point being, Bulls are a lot closer than we are, if you ask me.
    Only problem is, the Bulls seem to be higher on Gibson than they are on Boozer. They'd rather keep Gibson's talent at the pay range of a dude taken in the mid-late first round, as opposed to Boozer's wildly inconsistent play in the playoffs at a much higher pay range.

    Plus, I say when you're relying on other teams to part with their talent as opposed to just waiting for one o three guys to occupy a spot....you're not that far ahead of the game.

    Everything the Bulls can do is based on another team agreeing with whatever they're willing to trade, their destiny is in other teams' hands. Unless they get a J-Rich or Jamal Crawford for the MLE. If the Bulls don't get a shooter, who can also occasionally create for himself and others in the starting lineup with Rose, they're not quite as close as you think. It would be the Cavs all over again. The MVP, who controls the ball, and when teams gameplan for him in the playoffs...there are no alternatives. The Bulls success begins and ends with Rose, and it's gonna mostly end in the playoffs with this current, failing, model. It's not even about which teams need a PF, it's about which teams have what the Bulls need, as well as being willing to accept what the Bulls want to trade.

    Our "not so close" situation is having 2 legit superstars and room for a third. There are three candidates for that third spot. Our destiny lies in the connected braincells of at least one of those three individuals.

    The Mavs had their success because Barea, Terry, and occasionally Marion got their shots in their spots (Dirk is a given)....because they could. They benefitted from ball movement and just from being good enough to get what they wanted when they needed to. That's what the Bulls, and every other championship hopeful wants to achieve...right now the Bulls have defense and rebounding on lock, and they have one guy on offense who can get his and create for others. If the Knicks get CP3 or Deron...we'd have two superstar who we can run the offense thru...inside/out, and Amar'e who can operate 15 feet and down. If we got Dwight....well the NBA would just cease to exist.

    I'll still take a scenario of "we have Melo and STAT....wanna join us and win?"
    over "pllllllleeeeeeeeeaaaasssssse give us Mayo....so what if you have Zach and Arthur, plllleeeeeeeaaaaaasssssseee we need Mayo, we'll give you...yet another PF, PLLLEEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEE."

  13. #28
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    And Dalembert would probably mess with our ability to make a run at a CP3, Dwight, or Deron, cause he's not taking a one year deal. That's why the Knicks are eyeing guys the likes of Kwame.
    See, I've been flirting with getting Nash on a small contract INSTEAD of those three and then using the remaining money to pursue a free agent C.

    I think NASH + Free Agent Center who can block shots and rebound is way better than simply having CP3 by himself. CP3 is better than Nash but he's not better to the point where the gap between the two is worth giving up a roleplaying center who can protect the paint which is what EVERY single NBA Champion has had in the past 20 years.

  14. #29
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    See, I've been flirting with getting Nash on a small contract INSTEAD of those three and then using the remaining money to pursue a free agent C.

    I think NASH + Free Agent Center who can block shots and rebound is way better than simply having CP3 by himself. CP3 is better than Nash but he's not better to the point where the gap between the two is worth giving up a roleplaying center who can protect the paint which is what EVERY single NBA Champion has had in the past 20 years.
    Only problem w that is CP3 gives us a longer window to win a title. We'd have probably 4-6 yrs worth of contention versus having Nash and a higher caliber C.. and 1-2 yrs to win one. Who's to say once we get CP3 we don't get lucky w a solid draft pick or a discount signing that we couldn't normally pull off w'out being so close to winning a chip.

    Let me just say this again.. if you're team is overwhelming at a level teams can't contain.. and you can defend the perimeter you can get away w not having a serious role-playing center. But you do need at least three serviceable guys to hang w teams. I believe we'd be fine w a three-headed combo of something like Aaron Gray, Dalembert and Turiaf, or Gray, Jerome Jordan (if he can play) and Okeafor. W a combo of Paul , Amare and Melo that would be enough in my opinion.

    Remember the Bulls of the 90's? I always think of them when I hear people talking about how we need this or that center. They, at a later point in the dynasty, had a combo of Longley, Wennington and Bison Dele (formerly known as Brian Carson Williams) during the 96-97 season, and later Longley, Wennington and Joe Klein during the 97-98 season. Those are two pretty awful looking three-headed monsters right there fellas.. Those Bulls teams could get away w having that caliber center because they were too good on offense, due to having two ultra efficient and dominant players, and also because they could flat out defend the perimeter. None of the centers listed above were great shotblockers or rebounders. They simply clogged the paint and were a presence.

    W the awesome combo of Paul, Melo and Amare. I believe we would be somewhere near that level of Pippen and Jordan, ie championship level (not saying they'd be as good). We'd only need to find serviceable pieces to go around them during our 4-6 yr window of contention. I also believe Melo would have to make a commitment to focus more on defending his position at a high level. I think if we got Paul his consistency would be better because Paul always gives at a high level defensively and he'll call you out if he doesn't think your bringing it. Maybe w a player like Melo, an all-star type he just gives a glare.. not exactly sure how it would go. But Paul fumes at shet like that.. Melo knows this going into this whole three-star prospect and I think would just make the personal commitment once Paul signed. Who knows maybe he'll just start playing better D this year to get himself in the mode. Point is he knows what it takes to win a championship and what he brings on the defensive end right now aint enough (alot of speculation right there I know).

    Too many people on the board still underestimate how dominating those three will be. That needs to change.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Jul 14, 2011 at 23:07.

  15. #30
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    How dominating would it be to have Nash, too? Let's not forget that Steve Nash is probably both the best shooter in the NBA AND the best passer in the NBA.

    If we picked up Nash and got a bunch of good roleplayers along with him, why couldn't that team be better than one with Chris Paul? Yes, we give up A LITTLE offense on the outside and a ton of defense on the outside, but we'd then have the cap space to sign more roleplayers who can play defense as well as a big body in the middle.

    Let's not forget that the biggest reason the Mavericks won the title this year was not Dirk Nowitzki's shooting on Jason Kidd's passing but rather TYSON CHANDLER who was the main reason they were able to get past the teams who normally beat them by owning them in the paint.

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