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Thread: I want Paul, but w Nash I think we could win it all too.

  1. #31
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    How dominating would it be to have Nash, too? Let's not forget that Steve Nash is probably both the best shooter in the NBA AND the best passer in the NBA.

    If we picked up Nash and got a bunch of good roleplayers along with him, why couldn't that team be better than one with Chris Paul? Yes, we give up A LITTLE offense on the outside and a ton of defense on the outside, but we'd then have the cap space to sign more roleplayers who can play defense as well as a big body in the middle.

    Let's not forget that the biggest reason the Mavericks won the title this year was not Dirk Nowitzki's shooting on Jason Kidd's passing but rather TYSON CHANDLER who was the main reason they were able to get past the teams who normally beat them by owning them in the paint.
    Yup.

    *Guy Gets Past Paul And His Teammates Stare At Opposing Players Looking At His Shoes*

  2. #32
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    How dominating would it be to have Nash, too? Let's not forget that Steve Nash is probably both the best shooter in the NBA AND the best passer in the NBA.

    If we picked up Nash and got a bunch of good roleplayers along with him, why couldn't that team be better than one with Chris Paul? Yes, we give up A LITTLE offense on the outside and a ton of defense on the outside, but we'd then have the cap space to sign more roleplayers who can play defense as well as a big body in the middle.

    Let's not forget that the biggest reason the Mavericks won the title this year was not Dirk Nowitzki's shooting on Jason Kidd's passing but rather TYSON CHANDLER who was the main reason they were able to get past the teams who normally beat them by owning them in the paint.
    I hear what your saying and I'm obviously I'm open to it, I just think it's more important to have that larger window to win it all. You get that by acquiring a younger Paul.

  3. #33
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I hear what your saying and I'm obviously I'm open to it, I just think it's more important to have that larger window to win it all. You get that by acquiring a younger Paul.
    Exactamuno.

    We're going to have a good team, which = low draft picks. So let's only get Nash if we're 100% confident that CP3 will sign as an FA next summer. Because if we strike out on CP3, and Nash leaves/retires in a season or two and we're sitting at 24+ in the first round of the draft....while also over the salary cap and only have the MLE to offer....well....we're ****ed. Cause we'd need a PG and really have very few options.

    Or we go get CP3.

    One of those scenarios looks a lot bleaker than the other.

  4. #34
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I hear what your saying and I'm obviously I'm open to it, I just think it's more important to have that larger window to win it all. You get that by acquiring a younger Paul.
    Well think of this way. Let's say if we get Nash, let's give him two years of being a top PG. Third year he either retires (hope not ) or he can't play much.

    Nash's knees are in better shape than Paul's. Paul looked like he didn't even try a lot in the regular season he was so cautious of it. In the Playoffs when he turned it on it was mesmerizing because it was so long since he played that way. I was hoping for that to come back, didn't know if he had it in him or not at the time.

    So, I'm gonna guess if you paired him with Amar'e and Carmelo, he wouldn't need to be trying as hard in he regular season, but still, we don't know how bad his knees really are.

    Right now, Nash is flat out a superstar, and THE best offensive PG in the game. Money and team, he's a better option imo.

  5. #35
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Well think of this way. Let's say if we get Nash, let's give him two years of being a top PG. Third year he either retires (hope not ) or he can't play much.

    Nash's knees are in better shape than Paul's. Paul looked like he didn't even try a lot in the regular season he was so cautious of it. In the Playoff when he turned it on it was mesmerizing because it was so long long he played that way. I was hoping for that to come back, didn't know if he had it in him or not at the time.

    So, I'm gonna guess if you paired him with Amar'e and Carmelo, he wouldn't need to be trying as hard in he regular season, but still, we don't know how bad his knees really are.

    Right now, Nash is flat out a superstar, and THE best offensive PG in the game. Money and team, he's a better option imo.
    Then what happens in 2014 when we're over the cap (if there's no hard cap...which there won't be), sitting at like 26th in the draft, and only have a $5M MLE?

    Paul is the safer option, without a doubt. We're not trying to win in all this year, and next and saying "well that was fun while it lasted....let's blow this up."

    CP3 is younger, as a GM...that's all you need. If the medical staff clears him, you go get him. There's no sane reason not to. STAT had micro-fracture surgery on both knees ages ago and he got $100M.

    Steve Nash was born in 1974. Stop it.

  6. #36
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    Then what happens in 2014 when we're over the cap (if there's no hard cap...which there won't be), sitting at like 26th in the draft, and only have a $5M MLE?

    Paul is the safer option, without a doubt. We're not trying to win in all this year, and next and saying "well that was fun while it lasted....let's blow this up."

    CP3 is younger, as a GM...that's all you need. If the medical staff clears him, you go get him. There's no sane reason not to. STAT had micro-fracture surgery on both knees ages ago and he got $100M.

    Steve Nash was born in 1974. Stop it.
    Well, I can't comment on the cap thing since I don't understand much of it, nor have I heavily looked into it.

    Really think about this though. Would we have enough offensive firepower? Yeah. Would the flow of the offense not only be fluent, it would also be fun to watch and for them to play? Yeah. Answer me this though. What if we run into a team such as the Lakers? Did you see Okafor try and stop Pau and Bynum? He's a solid defensive center and, even though the refs were being stupid, they were a load to handle regardless. Please don't say him being two inches under seven foot has anything to do with it. We're not finding anyone that good if we get Paul unless we strike gold.

    Do you see Chris Paul getting Stoudemire to lock down Pau, Bynum?

    Scoring isn't our problem, I really do think we should NOT WAIT for a new coach. I mean, you guys want Paul to improve our offensive, watch what would happen with Adelman on our team.

  7. #37
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Well, I can't comment on the cap thing since I don't understand much of it, nor have I heavily looked into it.

    Really think about this though. Would we have enough offensive firepower? Yeah. Would the flow of the offense not only be fluent, it would also be fun to watch and for them to play? Yeah. Answer me this though. What if we run into a team such as the Lakers? Did you see Okafor try and stop Pau and Bynum? He's a solid defensive center and, even though the refs were being stupid, they were a load to handle regardless. Please don't say him being two inches under seven foot has anything to do with it. We're not finding anyone that good if we get Paul unless we strike gold.

    Do you see Chris Paul getting Stoudemire to lock down Pau, Bynum?

    Scoring isn't our problem, I really do think we should NOT WAIT for a new coach. I mean, you guys want Paul to improve our offensive, watch what would happen with Adelman on our team.
    That's not really fair tho, you have to understand the cap stuff when it comes to building a team, otherwise you're setting yourself back and you dig a hole you can't get out of.

    There are no worthy centers that we can afford this year. Tyson Chandler is gonna get paid, and Dalembert is gonna look for a multiyear deal, and unless he takes the full MLE (which is 5 million dollars) he's gonna go elsewhere and get more money. So, that leaves us with the likes of Kwame Brown and Joel Przybilla. We can get those guys, whether we have Paul or not....so there's no reason to not get him.

    It makes no sense to sacrifice two positions. Because this center that everyone keeps talking about...doesn't seem to exist, at least not this year. So then we exchange a mid-30s PG and assets for a late-30s PG and a backup center (let's be real, Lopez isn't locking down Pau either), and then have no viable way to replace our PG when Nash retires at like 38-39. Neither Brandon Knight, nor Kemba fell to us @ 17 in this past draft, where are we going with mid to late 20s picks? Then we'd have to move STAT or Melo to get a PG or move up in the draft....or we can just add CP3 to those guys and then still get a 7 footer on the team.

  8. #38
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    That's not really fair tho, you have to understand the cap stuff when it comes to building a team, otherwise you're setting yourself back and you dig a hole you can't get out of.

    There are no worthy centers that we can afford this year. Tyson Chandler is gonna get paid, and Dalembert is gonna look for a multiyear deal, and unless he takes the full MLE (which is 5 million dollars) he's gonna go elsewhere and get more money. So, that leaves us with the likes of Kwame Brown and Joel Przybilla. We can get those guys, whether we have Paul or not....so there's no reason to not get him.

    It makes no sense to sacrifice two positions. Because this center that everyone keeps talking about...doesn't seem to exist, at least not this year. So then we exchange a mid-30s PG and assets for a late-30s PG and a backup center (let's be real, Lopez isn't locking down Pau either), and then have no viable way to replace our PG when Nash retires at like 38-39. Neither Brandon Knight, nor Kemba fell to us @ 17 in this past draft, where are we going with mid to late 20s picks? Then we'd have to move STAT or Melo to get a PG or move up in the draft....or we can just add CP3 to those guys and then still get a 7 footer on the team.
    You confused me, wouldn't having Chris Paul make things even worse for our cap situation? You're talking about 2014 (when Amar'e and/or Melo's contracts are up?) which confuses me more.

    You bring up a good point in the sense that we pretty much have a low chance of getting a good enough center in free agency. What we should do if we don't get somebody such as Dalembert is get a good bench. Let's face it, Chris Paul's defense isn't gonna change the lack of defense near the basket.

    To give a clearer picture, if there wasn't even Dalembert available, I'd still go for the bench. Just because a center isn't available doesn't mean you go for the best available player at a position that would be best used for a flow in offense in an already high scoring team. The only significant flaw to our offense is D'Antoni.

    People forget we have STAT and Melo. We're not in a desperate need to get another max over a bench.
    Last edited by RunningJumper; Jul 15, 2011 at 10:20.

  9. #39
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    You confused me, wouldn't having Chris Paul make things even worse for our cap situation? You're talking about 2014 (when Amar'e and/or Melo's contracts are up?) which confuses me more.

    You bring up a good point in the sense that we pretty much have a low chance of getting a good enough center in free agency. What we should do if we don't get somebody such as Dalembert is get a good bench. Let's face it, Chris Paul's defense isn't gonna change the lack of defense near the basket.

    To give a clearer picture, if there wasn't even Dalembert available, I'd still go for the bench. Just because a center isn't available doesn't mean you go for the best available player at a position that would be best used for a flow in offense in an already high scoring team. The only significant flaw to our offense is D'Antoni.

    People forget we have STAT and Melo. We're not in a desperate need to get another max over a bench.
    We have the Bird Right for both Amar'e and Carmelo, we can resign both guys. We'd also have other monies on the books as well. If we're a solid team...with low draft picks...and over the cap...and no point guard, we. are. in. trouble. Then actually, we might lose one of those two guys to FA if they go chasing a ring because they're in their early 30s and their current team can't put the proper talent around them because of the cap situation and lack of maneuverability.

    CP3's money on the books is only "bad" if you'd rather give that money to Shane Battier, Grant Hill, Peja, and some other old bodies to fill out the roster not realizing that those same dudes can be had for less money if they're joining CP3, Amar'e, and Melo. We'd have $18M, give or take, if Billups' and Turiaf's money comes of the books at season's end. (it's actually less than that with the annual increase of STAT and Melo's salaries) Who is so enticing that we'd have to actually give them real long term, probably untradable, deals? I still don't understand why you wouldn't get CP3. It's a position of need, and a player under the age of 28 who's the best in the game at that position. If it doesn't work....you can trade him for what you need....it's Chris freaking Paul.

    There really is no excuse for not adding CP3 to complete the core of him, Amar'e and Carmelo. Absolutely no reason. You can still draft players for the supporting cast, use the MLE every. single. year. for the supporting cast, and sign free agents for the supporting cast.

    Dwight, CP3, or Deron, in that order. If we can get one, we're going to dominate. Don't look at the Heat's struggles and say "see....it's not needed" because there's a difference between "ball dominate wing + ball dominate wing" and "top 3 PG in the game + most versatile scorer in the game + unguardable big" or "most versatile scorer + unguardable big + Dwight Howard"

    There's no sane reason to pass up either one of those scenarios. And a handful of "forget-me-nots" is silly.

  10. #40
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Pretty much, what I'm saying is this....the dudes you want us to get...the bench and the center to protect the paint....are the same caliber of guys we're going to have to target whether or not we have CP3. Unless we throw the majority of the $14-16M at one guy.

    The list of the best unrestricted free agents in 2012 not named Deron, CP3, or Dwight is something like this: Ramon Sessions, Hinrich, Ray Allen, Garnett, Diaw, Baron Davis, Mo Williams, Jason Terry, Kidd, Andre Miller, Maxiell, Ben Wallace, Posey, Kaman, House, Big Z, Farmar, and Elton Brand.

    Some of those guys have player options and might not hit the market, but I threw their name in there anyway. I don't see your center in there, and I don't know why we wouldn't give Paul his deal, maybe sign a rotation guy like a Diaw or Posey, and then throw the MLE at someone else and hope they take it.

  11. #41
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    Pretty much, what I'm saying is this....the dudes you want us to get...the bench and the center to protect the paint....are the same caliber of guys we're going to have to target whether or not we have CP3. Unless we throw the majority of the $14-16M at one guy.

    The list of the best unrestricted free agents in 2012 not named Deron, CP3, or Dwight is something like this: Ramon Sessions, Hinrich, Ray Allen, Garnett, Diaw, Baron Davis, Mo Williams, Jason Terry, Kidd, Andre Miller, Maxiell, Ben Wallace, Posey, Kaman, House, Big Z, Farmar, and Elton Brand.

    Some of those guys have player options and might not hit the market, but I threw their name in there anyway. I don't see your center in there, and I don't know why we wouldn't give Paul his deal, maybe sign a rotation guy like a Diaw or Posey, and then throw the MLE at someone else and hope they take it.
    Well, I would take Kaman.

    To your previous, you can add an MLE every year? So the Heat could still keep Miller and another MLE? (depending on the CBA).

    Either way, I think we can both agree we're going to be better whoever we get. What I disagree with is our PG position needing to be filled. Billups might have a few years left, and we DO need the defense in the paint. We won't be slightly better with the players I mention. We need a PASSER for STAT and Melo, we don't need everything in a large part.

    I might be able to type more on this, but I've been awake over twenty four hours because of a no sleep contest (that I won).

  12. #42
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Well, I would take Kaman.

    To your previous, you can add an MLE every year? So the Heat could still keep Miller and another MLE? (depending on the CBA).

    Either way, I think we can both agree we're going to be better whoever we get. What I disagree with is our PG position needing to be filled. Billups might have a few years left, and we DO need the defense in the paint. We won't be slightly better with the players I mention. We need a PASSER for STAT and Melo, we don't need everything in a large part.

    I might be able to type more on this, but I've been awake over twenty four hours because of a no sleep contest (that I won).
    If you're gonna take Kaman at about $9-11M a season...why not add 4 more and hit Dwight up with the max?

    The MLE is the value of the average NBA contract and every team over the salary cap gets it and can give it to one player, or slit it up between multiple FAs. So...if Tyson sets the market high, and Kaman can get lets say...$10M, you have another 4 to spend. (if we ultimately end up with $14M to spend this summer) Or you can give Dwight/CP3/Deron that entire $14M, and still get whoever you were going to acquire before. Now you can have your cake and eat it too.

    The problems arise in the future from the annual increase in salaries, after a while, the 3 max players becomes almost the entire payroll and it'll make things extremely tight. But I think the new CBA will do something to take care of that tho, the NBA loves these super teams because they bring in the revenue. The Celtics (in 2008), Heat, and Lakers sold out nearly every arena they went to, and raked in the cash for a league already losing money. Stern, the League brass, and owners in large markets want these super teams. Owners in smaller media markets don't want these teams. We'll see who wins that battle, but my money is on LBJ, Wade, and Bosh not being forced apart in the future due to the CBA and salary cap structure, just a hunch I have.

  13. #43
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    If you're gonna take Kaman at about $9-11M a season...why not add 4 more and hit Dwight up with the max?

    The MLE is the value of the average NBA contract and every team over the salary cap gets it and can give it to one player, or slit it up between multiple FAs. So...if Tyson sets the market high, and Kaman can get lets say...$10M, you have another 4 to spend. (if we ultimately end up with $14M to spend this summer) Or you can give Dwight/CP3/Deron that entire $14M, and still get whoever you were going to acquire before. Now you can have your cake and eat it too.

    The problems arise in the future from the annual increase in salaries, after a while, the 3 max players becomes almost the entire payroll and it'll make things extremely tight. But I think the new CBA will do something to take care of that tho, the NBA loves these super teams because they bring in the revenue. The Celtics (in 2008), Heat, and Lakers sold out nearly every arena they went to, and raked in the cash for a league already losing money. Stern, the League brass, and owners in large markets want these super teams. Owners in smaller media markets don't want these teams. We'll see who wins that battle, but my money is on LBJ, Wade, and Bosh not being forced apart in the future due to the CBA and salary cap structure, just a hunch I have.
    Well from a basketball perspective, I do think Dwight is the best choice period, but I don't see it happening. Who knows though.

    Appreciate the explanation for the MLE. I still don't understand it much, but your post is a good start/reference. The part that threw me off, and still does is the every year thing with the MLE. Sounds unfair, but I don't know much about it.

    I think James, Wade, an Bosh will be staying too, and that's with me not understanding much of the CBA. I don't see them being split, something will be done by the Heat and/or the NBA.

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