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Thread: Kwame Brown... Are we serious?!

  1. #46
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Although Kwame wouldn't be first on my list, the important point that people keep ignoring is that he would only be a 1 year stopgap. We need SOMEONE over 6'10 to man the 5 next season. Kwame playing 25-30 minutes a night wouldn't really be the end the of world for one season, on a cheap contract.

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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    So your plan is to pass up on a proven superstar like CP3 who fills a need for some draft picks and prayers that we find a decent center!? Brilliant!

    Of course Kurt Thomas or Kwame aren't the "key" but they are steps towards adding size and depth picking from the very limited pool of attainable big men.
    We have been down this road already with David Lee, Chandler, and Gallo. That being comparing theory with praticallity.

    Yes, in theory CP3 is the best, makes people better, will fit nicely etc... and it's infered ANY team would love to have him.

    REALISTICALLY though, outside of the vacuum, there are many factors which denote this as unrealistic. Consider...

    1. If MIA (or BOS)'s "big 3" is your arguing point- They WEREN'T max contracts, thus allowing for complimentary parts to be added (and trades if necessary due to matching/market valued contracts

    2. If the above (having to add to Stat & Melo) is your stance, then with those TWO already being at max $, what does that say about our FO? Signing TWO max's but needing another

    3. Our REAL situation dictates we need more than one player. That equates to realizng there is limited money. Limited money means spending what's left on one very good player or spreading it out to fill all needs with less than the best.

    4. Again, yes in theory we go after the best- but that makes sense when you have nothing but $. THAT isn't our situation. Our situation is we go after the best AFFORDABLE players who compliment what we have. How can an argument be made to appropriate all remaining funds towards ONE invididule who doesn't fit a (or multiple) need(s). That's ineffiecient and counter productive.

    MIA, DAL along with the league historically has proven...

    A. If pairing the "best" players, salaries MUST be limited (MIA, BOS, LAL, SA)

    B. If competing for a chip MORE than likely (due to A.) major contributions MUST be made by drafted players see: Bynum, Rondo, at a point Wade & Duncan even Kobe

    C. The front court of said chip competitor MUST be solid regardless of "stars"

    Can you name ANY team historically with 3 Max contract players who won?

    Without solid front court contributions?

    Not for nothing but even in NBA2K IF you could acquire CP3 (which more than likely will take drafting/trading multpile pics- I've done so), and that with extra picks granted to the Knicks, can you field a serviceable center. Maybe D-league bottom of the barrell types. And maybe you are that good and can win, but it's not realistic.

    I'd suggest at the least CONSIDER exploring other options with our limited funds and needs assesed. History has dictated we can never plan on the hopes of a player taking less, or teams trading for our mediocre players without setting us back (Melo).

    It's a pipe-dream at best, and getting caught up in that after doing so for multiple years is asinine. This while dismissng the need for a quality big (which market observence suggets will cost $) after having 2 max's on board is not only the least likely, but one of the worst approaches we can take.

    The draft is our only real hope and is more likely than thinking CP3 will take less and allow us to get a serviceable center.

  3. #48
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    I'd still add CP3 to a core of Melo and STAT and offer part or all of the MLE and get an affordable big like Pryzbilla or wait until Oden becomes a FA and see if he can be had for the MLE next summer.

    I don't know who this big is that we should target this year over CP3, other than Dwight there aren't any. If I have to choose between overpaying for Tyson Chandler or Dalembert and then filling out the roster with vet min, contracts; or getting CP3, or Deron by either trade or FA, and then throwing the MLE at a center than can be had...I choose option B.

    This was Donnie's plan, if you look at it, it's 3 years of superstars. 2010 (STAT), 2011 (Melo by either trade or FA), 2012 (CP3/Deron/Dwight by either trade or FA.)

    It is what it is, and it's not gonna change. There is no center that we can acquire right now that'll make us contenders because we're not offering multi-year deals, and neither Tyson or Sammy D, are gonna take one year deals. Both guys are gonna cash in with multiple years.

    Billups is old and will have to go soon, there's no viable reason to not target CP3. Getting a center now, messing up the books, then watching Billups leave/retire, and having no viable option for his replacement and not having a draft pick high enough to get an NBA ready guard, is much worst than getting CP3 and a big body to bang around in the paint at a later date.

    We want a dynasty, not a perennial playoff team.

  4. #49
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I'd still add CP3 to a core of Melo and STAT and offer part or all of the MLE and get an affordable big like Pryzbilla or wait until Oden becomes a FA and see if he can be had for the MLE next summer.

    I don't know who this big is that we should target this year over CP3, other than Dwight there aren't any. If I have to choose between overpaying for Tyson Chandler or Dalembert and then filling out the roster with vet min, contracts; or getting CP3, or Deron by either trade or FA, and then throwing the MLE at a center than can be had...I choose option B.

    This was Donnie's plan, if you look at it, it's 3 years of superstars. 2010 (STAT), 2011 (Melo by either trade or FA), 2012 (CP3/Deron/Dwight by either trade or FA.)

    It is what it is, and it's not gonna change. There is no center that we can acquire right now that'll make us contenders because we're not offering multi-year deals, and neither Tyson or Sammy D, are gonna take one year deals. Both guys are gonna cash in with multiple years.

    Billups is old and will have to go soon, there's no viable reason to not target CP3. Getting a center now, messing up the books, then watching Billups leave/retire, and having no viable option for his replacement and not having a draft pick high enough to get an NBA ready guard, is much worst than getting CP3 and a big body to bang around in the paint at a later date.

    We want a dynasty, not a perennial playoff team.
    Yeah, I have to agree. If we have a chance at adding CP3 or Deron Williams, we have to take it. The problem with scrapping the 3rd max plan in favor of a more balanced approach is that our biggest current hole (by far) is at center. And as we all know, centers are easily the most expensive players to go out and buy because quality centers in today's NBA are easily the hardest players to find. Therefore, even if we decided not to go after CP3 or Deron Williams (this is all assuming that Howard has no interest in coming - I think we'd all pick him first, otherwise), we will have to spend MOST OF OUR MONEY TO ACQUIRE A DECENT CENTER, ANYWAY. And the problem with this is that, after Dwight Howard is out of the picture, CP3 and Deron Williams are considerably better than anyone else out there.

    So, if we are going to have to spend most of our money to attain the services of even a decent quality center, we may as well spend just about all of our money on either CP3 or Deron Williams, both of whom being considerably dominant and valuable than any average center we could sign. I understand the reservations about this leaving us with little opportunity to sign an above average center, but hey, you can't have everything. Every team has weaknesses - the point is that you form a core of Melo, Amare, and CP3 and worry about everything else later.
    Last edited by keyser soze; Jul 14, 2011 at 11:20.

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    Originally Posted by keyser soze
    Yeah, I have to agree. If we have a chance at adding CP3 or Deron Williams, we have to take it. The problem with scrapping the 3rd max plan in favor of a more balanced approach is that our biggest current hole (by far) is at center. And as we all know, centers are easily the most expensive players to go out and buy because quality centers in today's NBA are easily the hardest players to find. Therefore, even if we decided not to go after CP3 or Deron Williams (this is all assuming that Howard has no interest in coming - I think we'd all pick him first, otherwise), we will have to spend MOST OF OUR MONEY TO ACQUIRE A DECENT CENTER, ANYWAY. And the problem with this is that, after Dwight Howard is out of the picture, CP3 and Deron Williams are considerably better than anyone else out there.

    So, if we are going to have to spend most of our money to attain the services of even a decent quality center, we may as well spend just about all of our money on either CP3 or Deron Williams, both of whom being considerably dominant and valuable than any average center we could sign. I understand the reservations about this leaving us with little opportunity to sign an above average center, but hey, you can't have everything. Every team has weaknesses - the point is that you form a core of Melo, Amare, and CP3 and worry about everything else later.
    You are partly correct, here is where the issue lies...

    We are approaching this CP3 thing AS IF ITS: we have money and the opportunity to either acquire CP3 vs Center X (and more), as in he (they) are available now. This is false.

    He isn't available now & we are speculating not only he will be available but earlier before FA.

    The TRUTH is...

    He ISN'T currently available, and IF he were we realistically would HAVE to sign him because realistically we DON'T have talent to entice a trade.

    Therefore, INSTEAD of banking on speculative notions we should understand a CONTENGENCY is our best plan. In that case IF we adopt a ready to go all out stance, we can acquire who is needed NOW and not worry about what will come.

    IF one chooses to think "with a star in CP3- he will compensate for front court dificiencies" THEN one must also think OUR 2 MAX's will compensate for a less than CP3 PG.

    So let's be real and stop the theoretics. Really speaking we may NEED a PG&C, but we don't NEED CP3 with our roster. We Do NEED a quality center regardless of who our PG is.

    Just like when we "offered" contracts (for less) to Jason Kidd and Grant Hill to no avail... sure we can offer CP3 a contract but realistically we can't afford him and expect to field a well rounded team. A rounded team has been proven to win.

    Teams with major voids don't win. IF WE CAN'T acquire a serviceable center NOW given our current state, we can assume the pickens will be LESS by over spending on one player NOT needed.

    This point has been made, illustarted and demonstrated time after time. This is why the cba was the way it was. This isn't baseball where caps don't exist. The point is to field the best complimentary team with limited resources.

    That can only be accomplished by either drafting players who contribute or negotiating for less (MIA- who lost)

    To even target CP3 in our current state is absolutely a fantasy. Yeah make an offer but looking at recent history- even when we had the ROOM to pair two max's together through FA WE COULDN'T DO IT! Imagine thinking we can add a third with no ramifications...

    Smmfh!! Really!

  6. #51
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    CP3 -vs Other options (more thank likely a combo)

    Imo CP3 is not impossible BUT improbable.

    One can argue acquiring Nash & Lopez would be of more benefit than CP3 alone given our current roster.

    If anything that's comparing (speculating) our +/- wins/losses in either case along with future cap flexibility.

    Its a gamble and a long shot at best to add CP3 not worth scuttling another season for.

  7. #52
    Member knicksman20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Ben Wallace negates this.
    One of the few exceptions but where is he now that his athletic ability has dropped lower? See what I mean. You can't learn height. That's why true big men have longer NBA career's than most smaller players.

  8. #53
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    CP3 -vs Other options (more thank likely a combo)

    Imo CP3 is not impossible BUT improbable.

    One can argue acquiring Nash & Lopez would be of more benefit than CP3 alone given our current roster.

    If anything that's comparing (speculating) our +/- wins/losses in either case along with future cap flexibility.

    Its a gamble and a long shot at best to add CP3 not worth scuttling another season for.
    Unless the Knicks are working the back channels and their affiliations with CAA, and know that CP3 wants to come here.

    NO's options would be: get something/anything in return for him, or watch him walk. They have no power in the scenario like Denver, because Melo had to be moved before the deadline under the old CBA to get his money, so his preferred destination had to break the bank for him.

    There is no such pressure on CP3, if he wants to come here, he's free to do it by either forcing a trade with the threat of walking, or actually just walking.

    It's literally impossible to deem getting him, improbable, or anything else, unless you know him personally and have spoken to him about his wishes, and plans for the rest of his NBA career. Because if he wants to be a Knick, he will be a Knick. That's why the Knicks aren't going to jeopardize the ability to get him until something happens with his situation.

    Our core is still incomplete. We're not scuttling anything away until we actually have our foundation in place. We only have 2/3 of it. Patience was what Donnie was preaching, we still have to have some.

  9. #54
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    I honestly don't feel like we are "scuttling" a season with Kwame brown/KT + amar'e, melo, fields/iman and billups.

    That seems like a competitive team to me, and a threat for the ECF for sure. I think we have a real chance to land in the playoffs as high as #3 in the east with this team.

    If the option is to either go with this team and hope for a shot at CP3 next season, or to scuttle the cp3 option and sign a david west caliber player to make a run this year, then I think we are better off gambleing on CP3 and playing the guys we have.

  10. #55
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    Ok I'll give it to you...
    IF CP3 wants to be a Knick, he can wait and be one. That entails a) playing this year out (however short it may be) & b) him not forcing us to break the bank for him

    Which equates to scuddling a season in hopes this comes to fruicion. My point is the only realistic chance at him includes a less than probable assumption. One that he will wait, two take less, not be offered and accept more from somewhere else.

    Then guess what? IF that happened which is unlikely, we will have to sign the Kurt Thomas's of the world. Now look at where we are at... having to sign the Kurt Thomas's of the world. So in effect- we are thinking a CP3 can take the same monies as A Billups, Fields, TD, AND turiaf combined, leaving us with who?

    CP3
    Shump
    Melo
    Stat
    Jorts
    And Rautins

    And I believe Rautins and Fields contract expire after next year. TD also. Leaving us with multiple roster spots to cover with 3 max's on the books...

    So we "vet min" and draft the rest attempting to provide depth?

    Donnies plan wasn't to acquire a max every year, it was to make room for two after the first 2 years. It was supposed to be LBJ and someone else plus fill in the rest. Not this 3 star sh*t.

    Again, I agree IF he falls in our lap (takes less) perfect. But the reality is once we acquired 2 max's we took ourselves out of the CP3 mix because filling out a roster with what's needed after that is unheard of.

    With Stat and Melo I don't even know why we are targeting CP3... seriously. And to say that's because there are no centers so we mind as well makes no sense. We could trade for a center just as we could trade for Cp3 as intimated.

    With these two almost any serviceable pg will do. Any center won't do because Stat and Melo can't stop centers without more likely fouling. Its about priorities. Right now with two scorers and lackluster defense, they need help in the middle. They don't need a guard to get them the ball. They need size.

    IF we can get to see them NOW with the size I suggest (no homo) it will become clear the PG to replace Billups will be a dime a dozen. Think of all the pgs we had and could of had... much more available draft and all than a serviceable center.

    Get the center now and worry about CP3 later. And if its true he wants to be here, fine let him take less to do so. But thinking a center will be readily available after we have yet to acquire a valued one since Camby is just dumb. Sh*t I'll take a Nene or a Chandler Now and wait for a f*cking Ray Felton any day of the week.

    Chandler, Bynum, Perkins, Duncan's... don't come cheap or easy because when that trophy is hoisted they are there. They make the difference. A team with depth makes the difference and that's who I see winning it all...

    Teams with Size and depth featuring clutch scorers. CP3 will prevent us from achievng this attainable goal.

  11. #56
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by p0nder
    I honestly don't feel like we are "scuttling" a season with Kwame brown/KT + amar'e, melo, fields/iman and billups.

    That seems like a competitive team to me, and a threat for the ECF for sure. I think we have a real chance to land in the playoffs as high as #3 in the east with this team.

    If the option is to either go with this team and hope for a shot at CP3 next season, or to scuttle the cp3 option and sign a david west caliber player to make a run this year, then I think we are better off gambleing on CP3 and playing the guys we have.
    Totally agree. I think people are grossly underestimating us coming into this season (if there is a season).

    1) People are underestimating the value of a full training camp and its beneficial effect on the team's cohesion as a hole.

    2) People are underestimating how much we will improve our rebounding and defense if we sign even ONE more big body who Mike D is willing to play. As much of a bust as he has been, a guy like Kwame would improve our interior presence So much it's not even funny.

    3) People are forgetting that we were playing pretty well at the end of the season and if BOTH Amare and Billups don't get hurt early in the Boston series, that's a very different series.
    Last edited by keyser soze; Jul 14, 2011 at 19:10.

  12. #57
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    Originally Posted by keyser soze
    Totally agree. I think people are grossly underestimating us coming into this season (if there is a season).

    1) People are underestimating the value of a full training camp and it's beneficial effect on the team's cohesion as a hole.

    2) People are underestimating how much we will improve our rebounding and defense if we sign even ONE more big body who Mike D is willing to play. As much of a bust as he has been, a guy like Kwame would improve our interior presence So much it's not even funny.

    3) People are forgetting that we were playing pretty well at the end of the season and if BOTH Amare and Billups don't get hurt early in the Boston series, that's a very different series.
    Ok then so why the need for CP3 IF a Kwame Brown can improve us so?

    Why would we need him over a say Ray Felton?

    If a big of Kwame's caliber makes us that good with the whole training camp and stuff, what will a Nene do for us?

    See my point? IF we fill our center NEEDS, CP3 is a luxury not a NEED. Just think we saw Ray Felton do what he did, not GREAT but not bad, and that was without a center in his first year.

    How much of a difference will CP3 make compared to a less expensive Felton missing a center... not much if any. No one would complain if we had Stat Melo and Felt. No one. We would say we need size.

    Well get that size and again, almost any good passing pg can flourish to an acceptable level.

    GET THE BIG. Now or later, CP3 or not, we will still need a big. They are a rare commodity.

  13. #58
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Ok then so why the need for CP3 IF a Kwame Brown can improve us so?

    Why would we need him over a say Ray Felton?

    If a big of Kwame's caliber makes us that good with the whole training camp and stuff, what will a Nene do for us?

    See my point? IF we fill our center NEEDS, CP3 is a luxury not a NEED. Just think we saw Ray Felton do what he did, not GREAT but not bad, and that was without a center in his first year.

    How much of a difference will CP3 make compared to a less expensive Felton missing a center... not much if any. No one would complain if we had Stat Melo and Felt. No one. We would say we need size.

    Well get that size and again, almost any good passing pg can flourish to an acceptable level.

    GET THE BIG. Now or later, CP3 or not, we will still need a big. They are a rare commodity.
    I agree with you about getting the big but my point was and remains that to get a big the caliber of say, Tyson Chandler, makes no sense because we would have to grossly overpay him (as someone most certainly will). I'd MUCH rather pay CP3 a max (which he deserves) than pay Chandler 12-14 million (which he doesn't). In other words, because centers are scarce commodities and inherently overpriced in today's NBA market, it makes no sense to spend a lot on one unless you are landing a true elite center (and Howard is the only one out there). If Howard is worth 16M, there is no way that Chandler is worth 12-14 but I absolutely guarantee you that he will get that much.

    So, instead of overpaying Chandler, Nene, Marc Gasol, or someone else with almost all of the money that could have netted us a 3rd max player, let's go get CP3 AND a guy like Kwame (who I maintain would improve our interior presence drastically, all by himself). This way, we hand out fair, equitable contracts AND we fill our needs.
    Last edited by keyser soze; Jul 14, 2011 at 18:06.

  14. #59
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    CP3 -vs Other options (more thank likely a combo)

    Imo CP3 is not impossible BUT improbable.

    One can argue acquiring Nash & Lopez would be of more benefit than CP3 alone given our current roster.

    If anything that's comparing (speculating) our +/- wins/losses in either case along with future cap flexibility.

    Its a gamble and a long shot at best to add CP3 not worth scuttling another season for.
    Unfortunately, I agree with the bolded (which is why I think we'll end up pursuing a plan more along the lines of what you have in mind). People who are talking about CP3 like he is a given are conveniently ignoring that we have very little to offer New Orleans. There are MANY teams out there who will be interested in acquiring CP3's services and most of them have better assets than we do. And there are at least a couple of them who I think could convince him to sign with them long term.

    The Lakers are a prime example. Consider the following:

    1) The Lakers have substantially more enticing assets than we will ever acquire over the next few months. Even though I think he's incredibly overvalued, Bynum alone destroys any package we could conceivably put together. Throw in the possibility of Odom and it's all over.

    2) The Lakers have just as desirable destination as we do. (Don't tell me the Lakers couldn't convince CP3 to sign with them long term if they are willing to trade for him)

    3) They have a need at pg. Derek Fisher is no longer a starting caliber PG (especially in a non-triangle offense) IF Dwight Howard makes it clear he is going to stay in Orlando, I can't imagine that they wouldn't be interested in CP3 or Deron Williams.
    Last edited by keyser soze; Jul 14, 2011 at 19:10.

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    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    One of the few exceptions but where is he now that his athletic ability has dropped lower? See what I mean. You can't learn height. That's why true big men have longer NBA career's than most smaller players.
    I'd say it has more to do with his injuries. Of course his athleticism helped, but I don't like the athleticism argument. People say the same things for Iverson and Carter, when in reality they couldn't do half the things they did without skill. Also, Ben Wallace and these guys have the IQ.

    But anyway, yes he's one of the few to be that good at that height, but still, it negates it because, come on! lol Chuck Hayes was the Rockets (starting?) center and they won more games than us.

    Also there's guys who are much less athletic than the players they're defending, and they find a way to put good/great defense on them.

    Turiaf is good because he knows how to defend and puts his heart into it. I rather have a team with 4'3 guys who gets the job done than "big bodies" who aren't skilled and don't put in the effort. It's not like we even have Rick Adelman who might get something out of Kwame.

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