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Thread: Kwame Brown... Are we serious?!

  1. #61
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    Originally Posted by keyser soze
    Totally agree. I think people are grossly underestimating us coming into this season (if there is a season).

    1) People are underestimating the value of a full training camp and its beneficial effect on the team's cohesion as a hole.

    2) People are underestimating how much we will improve our rebounding and defense if we sign even ONE more big body who Mike D is willing to play. As much of a bust as he has been, a guy like Kwame would improve our interior presence So much it's not even funny.

    3) People are forgetting that we were playing pretty well at the end of the season and if BOTH Amare and Billups don't get hurt early in the Boston series, that's a very different series.
    bingo. i see us making a decent run in the playoffs and it would be unimaginable if we eventually get cp3. we got vets who know the game well and 2 superstars in their prime to help. Only thing is i don't know about d antonie coaching. Like him as a person but i don't think his style of play is suited for us if we plan on being contenders for years to come.

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    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by keyser soze
    Although Kwame wouldn't be first on my list, the important point that people keep ignoring is that he would only be a 1 year stopgap. We need SOMEONE over 6'10 to man the 5 next season. Kwame playing 25-30 minutes a night wouldn't really be the end the of world for one season, on a cheap contract.
    Last year it was "Jared Jeffries on a 1 year contract won't really hurt us"... this year it's Kwame Brown. Why Knick fans want to target scrubs like this boggles my mind.

  3. #63
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Ok then so why the need for CP3 IF a Kwame Brown can improve us so?

    Why would we need him over a say Ray Felton?

    If a big of Kwame's caliber makes us that good with the whole training camp and stuff, what will a Nene do for us?

    See my point? IF we fill our center NEEDS, CP3 is a luxury not a NEED. Just think we saw Ray Felton do what he did, not GREAT but not bad, and that was without a center in his first year.

    How much of a difference will CP3 make compared to a less expensive Felton missing a center... not much if any. No one would complain if we had Stat Melo and Felt. No one. We would say we need size.

    Well get that size and again, almost any good passing pg can flourish to an acceptable level.

    GET THE BIG. Now or later, CP3 or not, we will still need a big. They are a rare commodity.
    Your post indicates that you're still lacking in a clear comprehension of basketball logic. I cannot understand how you still don't see the importance of getting the best player available. Paul is that player... and he wants to come here and play with your Allstar PF and SF. It's simple.

    What can you not see this??

    Originally Posted by keyser soze
    I agree with you about getting the big but my point was and remains that to get a big the caliber of say, Tyson Chandler, makes no sense because we would have to grossly overpay him (as someone most certainly will). I'd MUCH rather pay CP3 a max (which he deserves) than pay Chandler 12-14 million (which he doesn't). In other words, because centers are scarce commodities and inherently overpriced in today's NBA market, it makes no sense to spend a lot on one unless you are landing a true elite center (and Howard is the only one out there). If Howard is worth 16M, there is no way that Chandler is worth 12-14 but I absolutely guarantee you that he will get that much.

    So, instead of overpaying Chandler, Nene, Marc Gasol, or someone else with almost all of the money that could have netted us a 3rd max player, let's go get CP3 AND a guy like Kwame (who I maintain would improve our interior presence drastically, all by himself). This way, we hand out fair, equitable contracts AND we fill our needs.
    Even if we could have Chandler and Felton w our current core. I'd still take CP3 and a serviceable group at center. You always get the great/best player first, although your logic is sound w re: to overpaying for centers. It's still beside the point.

  4. #64
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drpapi23
    bingo. i see us making a decent run in the playoffs and it would be unimaginable if we eventually get cp3. we got vets who know the game well and 2 superstars in their prime to help. Only thing is i don't know about d antonie coaching. Like him as a person but i don't think his style of play is suited for us if we plan on being contenders for years to come.
    Jermaine O'Neal did what for the Celtics?

  5. #65
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Even if we could have Chandler and Felton w our current core. I'd still take CP3 and a serviceable group at center. You always get the great/best player first, although your logic is sound w re: to overpaying for centers. It's still beside the point.
    Why wouldn't you take Chandler and Felton over CP3? In either scenario we will probably attract good veterans. Getting the center we need and a good PG who's in good condition along with our two superstars would be just as much attractive.

    Felton wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd take him and Chandler.

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    Again, you would take CP3 the superstar if it weren't for the fact that you already have Carmelo and Amar'e on this team.

    EVERY team needs good roleplayers. Yes, Scottie and Michael were ridiculous but guys like Toni Kukoc and Dennis Rodman were just as critical in those title runs.

  7. #67
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Why wouldn't you take Chandler and Felton over CP3? In either scenario we will probably attract good veterans. Getting the center we need and a good PG who's in good condition along with our two superstars would be just as much attractive.

    Felton wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd take him and Chandler.
    Nah dude.. you take the great player in every instance. You never pass up on greatness. That's basketball 101.

    I shouldn't have to explain this. It's a luxury you don't pass on.



    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Again, you would take CP3 the superstar if it weren't for the fact that you already have Carmelo and Amar'e on this team.

    EVERY team needs good roleplayers. Yes, Scottie and Michael were ridiculous but guys like Toni Kukoc and Dennis Rodman were just as critical in those title runs.
    No, in the context of Amare and Carmelo, I think you need that third guy.

    Jordan and Pippen were good enough to buck most historical winning traits of Championship teams. They had some good role guys like Rodman and Kukoc who they got at discount because they were dynasty type team. We could get a guy or two like that too imo. We're not as good w just Amare and Melo tho. I think for this reason you go and get that third high caliber player. Now you can go the Dallas route by stacking roll guys and hoping the team gels around our two stars. But does anyone look at Dallas as team that will win again next yr? Are they a multi-title type of team? I don't see it. I think the East is going to win the next few titles and I want our team to be included in that kind of contention. W a big 3 including Paul we could win multiple chips imo.

  8. #68
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Your post indicates that you're still lacking in a clear comprehension of basketball logic. I cannot understand how you still don't see the importance of getting the best player available. Paul is that player... and he wants to come here and play with your Allstar PF and SF. It's simple.

    What can you not see this??



    Even if we could have Chandler and Felton w our current core. I'd still take CP3 and a serviceable group at center. You always get the great/best player first, although your logic is sound w re: to overpaying for centers. It's still beside the point.
    Really? Show us your comprehension by answering this:

    1. What CHAMPIONSHIP team had 3 players under MAX contracts?

    2. What championship team won without the contribution of their front court?

    3. What CHAMPIONSHIP team (in recent memory) has won without a player they drafted making a major contribution (including draft day trades- Kobe)?

    4. Estimate for us by wins and losses the difference between fielding the SAME team with CP3 vs Ray Felton.

    Thanks.

    What you can't comprehend is your approach is flawed and its revealed in your argument> getting "the best" is what's best.

    When building from scratch- yep everyone agrees.
    When ALREADY having 2 MAX players- nope "the best" isn't what's necessarily what's best for a team

    The situation, as I've explained, becomes the best complimentary AFFORDABLE players should be signed. Simply because the players added after acquiring 2 max's MUST compliment and accentuate our previous investment(s).

    Cp3 does exactly THE OPPOSITE IF he costs max $. HE prevents us from finising what we started 3 years ago. That's counter intuitive.

    I understand what you don't. Your idea is one used to sell tickets.

    My position is one that increases likely hood of championship success and is fiscally responsible enough to consider forward flexibility.

    Again its simple... no team feels they need to add another MAX contract after they already (recently) added 2- if so its considered back tracking from a mistake.

    Looking forward to your answers.

    Thanks again.

  9. #69
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    i cant seem to fathom how people are not getting you!
    the freakin heat came 2 wins within winning a championship and guaranteed will be favored to win it all whenever next season starts.
    dont gimme that bs about how dallas won and all that, dallas won after like 10 tries. Aside from D12, no only is CP3 the best player we can get, but his skillset will have the GREATEST IMPACT!


    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Nah dude.. you take the great player in every instance. You never pass up on greatness. That's basketball 101.

    I shouldn't have to explain this. It's a luxury you don't pass on.





    No, in the context of Amare and Carmelo, I think you need that third guy.

    Jordan and Pippen were good enough to buck most historical winning traits of Championship teams. They had some good role guys like Rodman and Kukoc who they got at discount because they were dynasty type team. We could get a guy or two like that too imo. We're not as good w just Amare and Melo tho. I think for this reason you go and get that third high caliber player. Now you can go the Dallas route by stacking roll guys and hoping the team gels around our two stars. But does anyone look at Dallas as team that will win again next yr? Are they a multi-title type of team? I don't see it. I think the East is going to win the next few titles and I want our team to be included in that kind of contention. W a big 3 including Paul we could win multiple chips imo.

  10. #70
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Really? Show us your comprehension by answering this:

    1. What CHAMPIONSHIP team had 3 players under MAX contracts?

    Sooo... I guess the Celtics don't qualify?? I could go on. There have plenty of teams throughout history that have players that would be considered "max types", and many teams that have won a chip w 3 stars.

    2. What championship team won without the contribution of their front court?

    This question doesn't apply to us. We would have contribution from our front court at PF. Did you mean contribution from the center position?

    3. What CHAMPIONSHIP team (in recent memory) has won without a player they drafted making a major contribution (including draft day trades- Kobe)?

    This is a dumb question. If your team is dominant enough it doesn't matter how you acquired the talent. And I think it's safe to say we'll have somebody on the team w drafted if and when we finally win one.


    4. Estimate for us by wins and losses the difference between fielding the SAME team with CP3 vs Ray Felton.

    I'm not even going to entertain this question. Felton is not in Paul's stratosphere. You do not comprehend (u and Running J) fully what Paul would bring to this team. Plain and simple. I just have to accept that.

    Thanks.

    What you can't comprehend is your approach is flawed and its revealed in your argument> getting "the best" is what's best.

    Nope, it's always the approach.

    When building from scratch- yep everyone agrees.
    When ALREADY having 2 MAX players- nope "the best" isn't what's necessarily what's best for a team.

    We don't already have two max players. Melo is max Amare isn't. We overpaid for Amare. W Paul we'd have our two legit max players. If we had Paul and Melo I'd say fine, go and round out the team w a fine role playing center and whatever else we could afford. But we don't already, so we need Paul. Paul and Melo are both better than Amare imo. Paul is better than either of them.

    The situation, as I've explained, becomes the best complimentary AFFORDABLE players should be signed. Simply because the players added after acquiring 2 max's MUST compliment and accentuate our previous investment(s).

    Cp3 does exactly THE OPPOSITE IF he costs max $. HE prevents us from finising what we started 3 years ago. That's counter intuitive.

    This all depends on the new CBA. We don't know if gettting him will prevent us from finishing what we started yet. Do we?

    I understand what you don't. Your idea is one used to sell tickets.

    Nice try. But Paul combined w Melo and Amare would produce dominance and wins while giving us a legit shot at beating Miami and ultimately getting to the pinnacle of the sport. And yes, we could do this w a serviceable three headed beast at center and solid role players. Just look at Miami they got all of the way the finals w the crap they had at center. You fail to acknowledge this. Miami will add to what they have and continue to get better.

    My position is one that increases likely hood of championship success and is fiscally responsible enough to consider forward flexibility.

    Unfortunately in the real basketball world you can't always do both. Just take a look at the Lakers and Dallas. Both went well over the cap to accomplish what they did.

    And contrary to what most people on this board and elsewhere say, Chandler wasn't as important as people think. It was the collective, the totality of talent in Dallas that made them a Championship team. They had three guards play great for them in Barea, Kidd and Terry, which is unbelievable and rare. Deshawn locking down other 2's and stroking 3s when needed. Marion is awesome and a bigtime contributor. Peja would come in and score too. And Dirk just took his game to another kind of level. He is at the height of his greatness, having completely mastered the mental nuances of the game. They had a better overall collection of players than everybody else. I didn't think so at first but it just makes sense when you look at the contributions and the result. They also gelled at the right time.

    Again its simple... no team feels they need to add another MAX contract after they already (recently) added 2- if so its considered back tracking from a mistake.

    Really?? So we're just gonna turn Paul away and say "no you can't come here we can't scarifice cap flexibilty.. Even though your the best PG of this generation and you'll give us more flexibility talent-wise that most can comprehend". You need to stop.

    Looking forward to your answers.

    Thanks again.
    There you go Red..
    Last edited by ronoranina; Jul 15, 2011 at 15:07.

  11. #71
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    Rono,

    What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument. It's about them wanting THEIR idea of 3 max players.

    This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!
    Last edited by TR1LL10N; Jul 15, 2011 at 15:17.

  12. #72
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Rono,

    What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument.

    This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!
    Not necessarily. I don't like MDA's system, I think it's flawed, I would prefer a more conventional inside/out system that produces higher percentage looks as opposed to the multitude of "open" lower percentage looks. As long as we're taking low percentage shots, we're going to have to be a gang offensive rebounding team, which leads to poor transition defense. Unless we have a team of sharpshooters...

    But all of that being said...I'll take CP3, Dwight, or Deron...you don't pass up on that kind of talent, ever. Doesn't matter who the coach is, when you have three complimentary starters from the last All-Star game (assuming we get CP3 or Dwight, Deron ain't half bad tho.)

  13. #73
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Plus those three guys all fill positions of need anyway, unless the likes of Turiaf and Billups will be our starting 1s and 5s going forward.

  14. #74
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    Not necessarily. I don't like MDA's system, I think it's flawed, I would prefer a more conventional inside/out system that produces higher percentage looks as opposed to the multitude of "open" lower percentage looks. As long as we're taking low percentage shots, we're going to have to be a gang offensive rebounding team, which leads to poor transition defense. Unless we have a team of sharpshooters...

    But all of that being said...I'll take CP3, Dwight, or Deron...you don't pass up on that kind of talent, ever. Doesn't matter who the coach is, when you have three complimentary starters from the last All-Star game (assuming we get CP3 or Dwight, Deron ain't half bad tho.)
    You are entitled to not like his system but I am glad you are not willing to pass up on talent just to see the system fail .

  15. #75
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Rono,

    What you fail to realize is that the issue of CP3 and people on this board not wanting him ultimately boils down to their hatred of MDA. Subconsciously or consciously they want MDA to fail to vindicate their stance therefore do not want to see us acquire players that possibly could compliment his system. Red and others would have no problem obtaining D12 over CP3 because that fits their prejudice and desire for size so don't be fooled by this 3 Max argument. It's about them wanting THEIR idea of 3 max players.

    This hatred leads to absurd stances that would have us forgo a legit superstar for draft picks!!
    Not true. I'm against getting a max PG. I'm not opposed to getting Nash, who is still a superstar and probably the best offensive PG in the game. Has NOTHING to do with D'Antoni. It's about money and rounding out the team for me.

    I've admitted this before, aesthetically I rather not get three maxes. That's not why I'm saying I want other players instead of a max PG. So you can't hold that against me. Whatever I say is my opinion.

    And I must say this again, DO I think a max PG would mean no championship for us? No. I'm not as confident in it as I would be rounding out the team.

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