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Thread: Kwame Brown... Are we serious?!

  1. #91
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Also he played most of last season and went all out. Yeah, he was TRYING to make the Playoffs, but it shows how good of shape he's in and how hard he plays. Even if he was with us two-three years, that would mean when he's not with us anymore, or can't play enough, we'll have money to spend on maybe a very good PG that becomes available. Who knows? Stephen Curry?
    We wouldn't have enough money for Steph. Things are set up for us to have a little bit of spending money next summer (or trade value in Billups' contract this season.) Annual increase in salary (mainly STAT and Melo) makes things tougher in the future. You have to have the pieces you want on the roster, now, not later.

    That's why you have to be damn sure you want role players over a third star, because once you get up against the cap...that's it. From there on it's the MLE and trades. That's why the Lakers got Pau, and then Shannon Brown, and Ron Artest, Steve Blake, Matt Barnes, etc. If they flesh out their roster around Kobe, Lamar, and Bynum...there is no Pau. But since they got Pau and his Bird Rights, they have him and all of those other guys too.

    If we get Nash, let him stay here for a few years, and STAT and Melo's salaries go from $18M a piece, to $21-22M a piece, that's an extra 6 to 7 million dollar's you don't have to spend. If you're over the cap, and remain over the cap because of annual increase, it doesn't matter who's money/contract comes off the books...you don't have money to spend. That means no Steph Curry, no anyone.

    Or you can have CP3, Melo, and Amar'e, some MLE guys, drafted players, and vet min contracts.

  2. #92
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    We wouldn't have enough money for Steph. Things are set up for us to have a little bit of spending money next summer (or trade value in Billups' contract this season.) Annual increase in salary (mainly STAT and Melo) makes things tougher in the future. You have to have the pieces you want on the roster, now, not later.

    That's why you have to be damn sure you want role players over a third star, because once you get up against the cap...that's it. From there on it's the MLE and trades. That's why the Lakers got Pau, and then Shannon Brown, and Ron Artest, Steve Blake, Matt Barnes, etc. If they flesh out their roster around Kobe, Lamar, and Bynum...there is no Pau. But since they got Pau and his Bird Rights, they have him and all of those other guys too.

    If we get Nash, let him stay here for a few years, and STAT and Melo's salaries go from $18M a piece, to $21-22M a piece, that's an extra 6 to 7 million dollar's you don't have to spend. If you're over the cap, and remain over the cap because of annual increase, it doesn't matter who's money/contract comes off the books...you don't have money to spend. That means no Steph Curry, no anyone.

    Or you can have CP3, Melo, and Amar'e, some MLE guys, drafted players, and vet min contracts.
    What if we got Nash for vet. minimum though after his last year? We wouldn't be over the cap then, unless you mean something else. It seems like we'd have more than the MLE even if we lost the extra 6 to 7 compared to spending the max, but that's how it seems. You'll have to help me out on that.

    On a side note, I hope the NBA allowing teams like the Lakers with that money stops being possible. No team should be that over the cap.

  3. #93
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    I think it speaks as much about Nash's own work ethic as it does Phoenix's conditioning squad but I see your point.

    My point was we need roleplayers. As beautiful as it would be to think that tons of players would take the minimum to play in NY, the reality is that if you maxed our our cap space by signing CP3, we'd be left with Kwame Brown-level players - fringe players trying to win a championship before they lose their game completely. We don't have any draft picks - let's be real, Jorts is never going to be that good, and if we get any better than we are right now our picks are going to be later picks and we all know how hard it is to get a big man later in the draft - hell, in this day and age, it's impossible to get a decent big man ANYWHERE in the draft.

    And some folks here have gotten so pissed at the idea of signing Kwame as it is that there's no real reason to think we could make a strong title run with him as our center. The Mavericks had Tyson Chandler, the Lakers had Pau and Bynum, the Celtics had Garnett, the Spurs had Duncan/Robinson, the Lakers and Heat had Shaq, the Pistons had Ben Wallace...it goes on. We desperately need a center if we want to win.

    That being said the best solution is to sign Dwight Howard and then we've got not only the most dominant big man in the game but two of the game's elite scorers. If we have D12, Melo, and Amar'e, then we could throw Shumpert and Fields at PG/SG and probably win a championship.

  4. #94
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    I think it speaks as much about Nash's own work ethic as it does Phoenix's conditioning squad but I see your point.

    My point was we need roleplayers. As beautiful as it would be to think that tons of players would take the minimum to play in NY, the reality is that if you maxed our our cap space by signing CP3, we'd be left with Kwame Brown-level players - fringe players trying to win a championship before they lose their game completely. We don't have any draft picks - let's be real, Jorts is never going to be that good, and if we get any better than we are right now our picks are going to be later picks and we all know how hard it is to get a big man later in the draft - hell, in this day and age, it's impossible to get a decent big man ANYWHERE in the draft.

    And some folks here have gotten so pissed at the idea of signing Kwame as it is that there's no real reason to think we could make a strong title run with him as our center. The Mavericks had Tyson Chandler, the Lakers had Pau and Bynum, the Celtics had Garnett, the Spurs had Duncan/Robinson, the Lakers and Heat had Shaq, the Pistons had Ben Wallace...it goes on. We desperately need a center if we want to win.

    That being said the best solution is to sign Dwight Howard and then we've got not only the most dominant big man in the game but two of the game's elite scorers. If we have D12, Melo, and Amar'e, then we could throw Shumpert and Fields at PG/SG and probably win a championship.
    Yeah, definitely, Nash, Amar'e, Hill, all have the work ethic needed.

    See, the Hornets had Okafor. He's a good defender. If they had a starting shooting guard, maybe that team would have been enough to beat the Lakers, but still, we saw how tough it was for even a good center to beat a team with Pau and Bynum on the floor at the same time. The Hornets were a defensive minded team too. On the Hornets, along with Chris Paul being this kind of player, all they might have needed is a shooting guard who could handle the ball....actually, the Hornets didn't have West either.

    We didn't wait for Paul to be our second max player, we went with what was available in Melo. While they don't give the open looks Paul would give us, they're still two players who need to be double-teamed. I think the two superstars we got means we're gonna need to get defensive players who aren't max players, or get Dwight Howard. Chris Paul on the Hornets has help on the defensive side, for all we know they might have been a David West and/or shooting guard away from the Finals/championship.

    We're not in that position though, unless we get a defensive coach, and in that case, we should see how that goes before spending the max.

    Forgot to ask, nuckles, or anyone, what happens if there is no next season? Does the contracts change or does it still stay the same regardless? As in, the 2012 free agents before the lockout will they still be free agents?

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    I agree. Let's not forget that the Hornets made it as far as they did because they had DEFENSE.

    We need Amar'e to work on his defense so he can hold his own against the likes of Pau Gasol and other high-level PFs. And then we need Carmelo to work his ASS OFF so he can have a chance in hell of stopping opposing swingmen.

    To that end I think a coaching change is just as important as adding a max level player and some roleplayers, but that's another story entirely.

    Let's not forget that we wasted whatever draft picks we had in the trades we've been making. We need to pick up FA roleplayers at C in order to keep this team going. No team is going to to the finals with Jared Jeffries at C.

  6. #96
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    What if we got Nash for vet. minimum though after his last year? We wouldn't be over the cap then, unless you mean something else. It seems like we'd have more than the MLE even if we lost the extra 6 to 7 compared to spending the max, but that's how it seems. You'll have to help me out on that.

    On a side note, I hope the NBA allowing teams like the Lakers with that money stops being possible. No team should be that over the cap.
    This past season, the cap was $58M, let's assume the cap stays somewhere around there, give or take a few mil. Next year, STAT and Melo make up $39M of our salary...43 mil the year after. That's just those two alone, not counting the coveted role players, and this phantom center that we're gonna get. Let's say those players collectively equal another $12M, you're now in 2013 with a payroll of $55M and no point guard.

    You mentioned Steph Curry...he's only eligible to become a restricted free agent after the 2012 season. To sign him, we'd have to outbid Golden State (assuming he doesn't sign a new deal with them before he hits the market) but how do we do that with limited funds?

    If you take on contracts that put you up against the cap when Billups and Ronnie leave, you have to know for a fact that they're going to get you a ring. Because if you're up against the cap with untradeable contracts...you're now in "blow it up" territory. Your case in point is the Orlando Magic. They F'ed themselves in the A with all of those trades they made to "win it all"....now they have contracts they can't move, can't sign anyone, and guess who's leaving? Their GM? Maybe, but so is Dwight Howard.

    If you have CP3, Melo, and STAT, or Melo, STAT, and Dwight, you're always in it....always. You can always draft a player to give you the same tangible results a "well condition, in shape" 39 year old Grant Hill would give you...and even if you have to have that old *****...the MLE would let you.

    Steve Nash and Grant Hill.....what the ****?

  7. #97
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    I almost created a new thread for this...but I won't. I'll ask this question here and hope it's answered.

    To all of those who think we should forgo another max and get a center, I need you to answer a few questions.

    Who is this center that you want? Can he be acquired right now? Can he also be acquired with the MLE?

  8. #98
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I almost created a new thread for this...but I won't. I'll ask this question here and hope it's answered.

    To all of those who think we should forgo another max and get a center, I need you to answer a few questions.

    Who is this center that you want? Can he be acquired right now? Can he also be acquired with the MLE?
    Thank you. I keep hearing all these names being bandied about. Nene, Gasol, Deandre Jordan, etc., etc. I don't think a lot of people understand that we have no cap space to spend this summer on any free agent that wants more than a MLE contract.

  9. #99
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I almost created a new thread for this...but I won't. I'll ask this question here and hope it's answered.

    To all of those who think we should forgo another max and get a center, I need you to answer a few questions.

    Who is this center that you want? Can he be acquired right now? Can he also be acquired with the MLE?
    People against pulling out all the stops to acquire a 3rd max will never have satisfactory answers to your questions because satisfactory answers to your questions don't exist without conceding the point.

  10. #100
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by keyser soze
    People against pulling out all the stops to acquire a 3rd max will never have satisfactory answers to your questions because satisfactory answers to your questions don't exist without conceding the point.
    Exactly. Ty sir.....

  11. #101
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    This past season, the cap was $58M, let's assume the cap stays somewhere around there, give or take a few mil. Next year, STAT and Melo make up $39M of our salary...43 mil the year after. That's just those two alone, not counting the coveted role players, and this phantom center that we're gonna get. Let's say those players collectively equal another $12M, you're now in 2013 with a payroll of $55M and no point guard.

    You mentioned Steph Curry...he's only eligible to become a restricted free agent after the 2012 season. To sign him, we'd have to outbid Golden State (assuming he doesn't sign a new deal with them before he hits the market) but how do we do that with limited funds?

    If you take on contracts that put you up against the cap when Billups and Ronnie leave, you have to know for a fact that they're going to get you a ring. Because if you're up against the cap with untradeable contracts...you're now in "blow it up" territory. Your case in point is the Orlando Magic. They F'ed themselves in the A with all of those trades they made to "win it all"....now they have contracts they can't move, can't sign anyone, and guess who's leaving? Their GM? Maybe, but so is Dwight Howard.

    If you have CP3, Melo, and STAT, or Melo, STAT, and Dwight, you're always in it....always. You can always draft a player to give you the same tangible results a "well condition, in shape" 39 year old Grant Hill would give you...and even if you have to have that old *****...the MLE would let you.
    Appreciate the response.

    Yeah, I'd love Steph Curry, but I was throwing him out than it just being about him. There could be several other players to help us out enough.

    Hey, I have no beef with Howard as a third max. Nothing to argue with that.

  12. #102
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I almost created a new thread for this...but I won't. I'll ask this question here and hope it's answered.

    To all of those who think we should forgo another max and get a center, I need you to answer a few questions.

    Who is this center that you want? Can he be acquired right now? Can he also be acquired with the MLE?
    Well I haven't looked at the the list for the next two years, so I'm gonna say someone who might cost less than the MLE, Chuck Hayes. Say what you ask?

    Well, he has experience as the Rockets' center, they won more games than us, and he'd be backing up (and resting) Turiaf. Turiaf to me is a good starting center, he needs defensive help and rest.

    No matter how much anyone says his height is what makes him not a good option, he has been said to lock down Dwight and others. I don't see how Turiaf/Hayes for a few year, and for the next year or two the third center being Kurt Thomas can't work.

    We then will have money to spend on a shooting guard, defensive back-up to Amar'e, Reggie Evans, whatever.

    I COMPLETELY understand your feelings about the limited options and why you think Paul is the best for us. What makes this not sound like the better option to me is Melo and Amar'e's inconsistent defense.

    Coaching is important. D'Antoni hasn't shown he's even good at offense. The coach might be the key here.

    Speaking of shooting guards, I think we should, without getting into a bidding war with the Celtics or whoever, go after Delonte West. Worth the risk, and he's been out of trouble lately. He plays good on both sides of the court.

  13. #103
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Also, I'd love to get Beno Udrih if money wise we can get him in 2012 if he decides to become a free agent or whatever

    PG-Beno Udrih
    SG- Delonte West
    PF-Reggie Evans
    C-Chuck Hayes

    We would have a very good and efficient starting PG and SG there, and two great back-ups for Amar'e and Turiaf.

    Udrih would cost the most, not bad...

    Add in veterans like T-Mac, and add in our off the ball player Fields, then we might really have a heck of a team.

    And, a good coach.

  14. #104
    Member knicksman20's Avatar
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    I would welcome CP3 if we got him but as for myself I'm being realistic. There's a slim chance we can land him or D12. There's some posters here that think it's a great possibility or a foregone conclusion one of them are signing; just like alot thought LBJ would sign here. For me I want the Knicks to take a realistic approach & plug the HUGE hole we have & that's defense & rebounding. I'm tired of watching opposing teams pound us on the glass & rolling out the red carpet & giving up layups. Target big men like:

    Javale Mcgee - Obvious reasons

    Sean Williams - He's 24 & playing well in the D-League averaging 13.7 pts 9.1 reb & 3 blks. He's low risk & high reward.

    Amir Johnson

    Drew Naymick - Good defender & decent rebounder from the D-League. He played for Michigan State & is a big body.

    Scott VanderMeer - Another D-Leaguer. 7 footer with a decent post game & a good rebounder.

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    CP3 already had that toast with Amar'e and Carmelo, though.

    He's never denied it. He's deflected it, but he's never denied saying that.

    If we have a Big 3 all we need is some C's and we'll be good, but let's be real UNTIL the new CBA comes out we don't know WHAT the best move to make is. If the new CBA prevents us from signing a 3rd max then we're essentially screwed and have to go to Plan B which is Steve Nash on a veterans' minimum and signing some big men.

    In any case...

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