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Thread: Kwame Brown... Are we serious?!

  1. #106
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    CP3 already had that toast with Amar'e and Carmelo, though.

    He's never denied it. He's deflected it, but he's never denied saying that.

    If we have a Big 3 all we need is some C's and we'll be good, but let's be real UNTIL the new CBA comes out we don't know WHAT the best move to make is. If the new CBA prevents us from signing a 3rd max then we're essentially screwed and have to go to Plan B which is Steve Nash on a veterans' minimum and signing some big men.

    In any case...
    The new CBA probably won't do that tho. That'll force the Heat to break up, and the NBA loves the revenue that these "super teams" bring in. It's a business first and a sports league second; if they can get better revenue sharing for the owners in small markets (pooling a certain percentage of money earned from ticket sales, concessions, merchandise, ad revenue, etc. and then divvying the money up between the teams) so that way the richer shares with the poorer, instead of the current model of the richer getting richer...I think there can be some compromises made with the salary cap to allow 3 max contracts on one team going forward. Teams in smaller markets might not like it, but with better revenue sharing, they're also benefitting from it...so it might make it more palpable.

    It's about give and take. The large market teams who also have exclusive TV deals and such...shares that money with the small market teams who are on Comcast Sports networks, and those small market teams agree to a salary cap where you can still have your superstars on one team.

  2. #107
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    You call it hyperbole. I call it knowing what I'm talking about. And yes I did change the argument up as I was talking about Amare not really being a max player.

    I think Trill is really on point w his recent post about you. You don't want us to get the great PG because you know it will propel us to unseen heights w this coach and his system. W Melo on this team there's no telling how far we could as MDA has never had a swingman of his caliber.

    You're just a hater Red. Plain and simple
    .

    LMAO....!



    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Well with Amar'e and Melo, he wouldn't need to do as much.

    AND, aside from Suns fans, I don't remember anyone aside from me that has noticed he isn't a bad defender now. He's decent or solid. In professional wrestling, although not a sport, they do crazy stunts a lot, and guys in their 40s (recently retired Shawn Michaels) was/are still doing amazingly athletic, and painful, stunts, many years after a BACK injury that people, including himself, thought ended his career. So, while it has yet to be proven that somebody who has played as long as Nash, aside from Jordan, and that age can still be fast enough and be in great condition, we're in a day and age where guys like Grant Hill can play great on a consistent basis.

    The points made in this thread that you made, rono, along with nuckles and maybe others is good about the available centers. We have to attempt to get Dalembert though imo. With Nash, he would give us a chance to spend more than we have now on a center for at least two years while STILL having Turiaf.

    That Phoenix medical staff, you gotta love them, changing perspective on things...
    Any wonder why athletes of today have seemed to extend their shelf life?

    it's called...
    HGH
    or possibly stem cell treatment.

    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    I think it speaks as much about Nash's own work ethic as it does Phoenix's conditioning squad but I see your point.

    My point was we need roleplayers. As beautiful as it would be to think that tons of players would take the minimum to play in NY, the reality is that if you maxed our our cap space by signing CP3, we'd be left with Kwame Brown-level players - fringe players trying to win a championship before they lose their game completely. We don't have any draft picks - let's be real, Jorts is never going to be that good, and if we get any better than we are right now our picks are going to be later picks and we all know how hard it is to get a big man later in the draft - hell, in this day and age, it's impossible to get a decent big man ANYWHERE in the draft.

    And some folks here have gotten so pissed at the idea of signing Kwame as it is that there's no real reason to think we could make a strong title run with him as our center. The Mavericks had Tyson Chandler, the Lakers had Pau and Bynum, the Celtics had Garnett, the Spurs had Duncan/Robinson, the Lakers and Heat had Shaq, the Pistons had Ben Wallace...it goes on. We desperately need a center if we want to win.

    That being said the best solution is to sign Dwight Howard and then we've got not only the most dominant big man in the game but two of the game's elite scorers. If we have D12, Melo, and Amar'e, then we could throw Shumpert and Fields at PG/SG and probably win a championship.
    Love this post.

    The reality is...
    1. If we are going to target anyone (which already was a mistake) there is someone better... D Howard, and no on is clamoring for him like CP3 (because they are gassed again regarding a wedding toast and believe D12 doesn't want to be here, although they claim players want to be here, and for cheap... go figure)

    2. No quality big = no chip. We aren't into making horizontal moves.

    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    I agree. Let's not forget that the Hornets made it as far as they did because they had DEFENSE.

    We need Amar'e to work on his defense so he can hold his own against the likes of Pau Gasol and other high-level PFs. And then we need Carmelo to work his ASS OFF so he can have a chance in hell of stopping opposing swingmen.

    To that end I think a coaching change is just as important as adding a max level player and some roleplayers, but that's another story entirely.

    Let's not forget that we wasted whatever draft picks we had in the trades we've been making. We need to pick up FA roleplayers at C in order to keep this team going. No team is going to to the finals with Jared Jeffries at C.
    There's that word again. The TEAM-MOA Kryptonite. They have all the answers on how to bait a fan base into "hoping" years down the line for some miracle player player, a miraculous defensive turn around, with a cycle of scrap heap players... and no real data to suggest why the issues we've faced justify their arguments for a player who doesn't impact the weakness we've EXCUSED for years.

    SMH... is an understatement.

    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    This past season, the cap was $58M, let's assume the cap stays somewhere around there, give or take a few mil. Next year, STAT and Melo make up $39M of our salary...43 mil the year after. That's just those two alone, not counting the coveted role players, and this phantom center that we're gonna get. Let's say those players collectively equal another $12M, you're now in 2013 with a payroll of $55M and no point guard.
    Those remaining players have a cap hold equivalent to rookie scale contracts calculated based on remaining open spots. So the figure is higher than that.

    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I almost created a new thread for this...but I won't. I'll ask this question here and hope it's answered.

    To all of those who think we should forgo another max and get a center, I need you to answer a few questions.

    Who is this center that you want? Can he be acquired right now? Can he also be acquired with the MLE?
    I would love for you to create this thread (thought the same too) as this will probably be discussed until next year. Many facets to consider and we can start with your question...

    The argument as you stated is really putting our eggs in one basket (PG), or spreading the wealth to acquire possibly more than one player- starting with a center.

    We can name centers who are available through FA, centers who we covet based on their skill set, and future projected FA.

    IT's about the approach. Once we decide on the approach (really priorities) then choices can be made.

    CP3 is NOT worth standing pat would mean...

    We can shop/trade for a center who matches contracts either alone or combined between Billups, Fields, TD, Turiaf, Rautins, Shump, Balkman, or Jorts.

    In effect it saying (admitting) NONE of these players is a keeper. EVERYONE of theses players (including a 2nd round pick if we still have that) is expendable and SHOULD be prioritized less than A STARTING CENTER.

    You see? Then like ALL THE CP3 supporters are willing to concede... we will have to fill out our roster with cheap role players/vets.

    THE DIFFERENCE IS: by sacrificing an EXPENDABLE player for a STARTER the replacement can be another expendable player (non starter).

    SO the list of possible centers is longer than you think. BUT the point is it starts by ADMITTING a starting center minus ANYONE but STat & Melo would be better both long and short term.

    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Thank you. I keep hearing all these names being bandied about. Nene, Gasol, Deandre Jordan, etc., etc. I don't think a lot of people understand that we have no cap space to spend this summer on any free agent that wants more than a MLE contract.
    I've covered this above your post. Again it's about prioritizing. Right now with Stat & Melo (and all the historical quantitative data available) we are arguing what's best for them NOW...

    A Starting Center
    A Max Starting PG on the horizon.

    Both have built-in sacrifices.

    The last point I would like to make is this...

    Earlier this year before we traded Felton Gallo and co. we were proposing trades.

    I proposed trading Gallo, Curry, (maybe Chandler and more)- whoever matched contracts $, but basically the same trade we made BUT FOR ANDREW BYNUM.

    I know some were/are saying the Lakers wouldn't do it etc... I offered reasons why they might consider it. Gallo was emerging, Chandler could help, maybe Felton could replace Fisher, they still had Pau, Bynum's contract was ending, etc...

    People said he was injury prone, some LIKE TRILL considered it.

    BUT HERE'S MY POINT.

    WE acquired MELO for basically that exact same trade (!!!!!), and I know partly because MELO forced his way, but look at it like this....

    A team would rather get rid of a top prolific scorer and get depth and some scoring in return than a big like Bynum who is still very young. Not exactly cheap but cheaper than Melo.

    In effect, if you argued that the Lakers wouldn't do this... then you are arguing the point that a CENTER is probably the most coveted position on WINNING squads- short of being led by Michael Jordan.

    Think about that.

    Prioritize the center, get creative, sacrifice whoever/whatever besides STAT & MELO to continue building our core with a less than MAX center and let the rest follow.

    Open your eyes to the possibility to a viable center to continue our positive direction. All we need is a team to bite. we have time, so don't assume its CP3 or bust just yet.

    Think about that.

  3. #108
    Veteran STAT1's Avatar
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    Red, I would have taken Melo over Bynum too. Look, when you have a chance to get an ELITE talent in the NBA, you go for it. Those types of players are the hardest to come by. Bynum would have been a very nice acquisition, but for the price we gave up for Melo I wouldn't have even considered it, & I wager neither would have the NY Knicks or any other NBA team. If we were talking about choosing between either Dwight Howard or Melo, then I would have taken Dwight Howard, but all we're doing here is talking in dream scenario hypotheticals here. What we DO know is that we got 1 of the best players in the NBA on our roster now to partner with STAT to build the foundation of our franchise. If I had to do that trade over again I would have done it everytime. I'm happy with that.

    As for the issue about targetting CP3 in 2012 or going after a C now, once again, what C's are we talking about here? We don't have the cap space to target any C's that are even worthwhile at this point. We're talking about choosing between someone like Sam Dalembert at the absolute best right now over waiting out a season for names like Deron, CP3, D12, Nash, Bynum, etc. in 2012. Is that even worth debating at this point? Not for me. & My guess is the Knicks aren't even considering bypassing a chance at stars like that next year just so they can lock up a role playing C now.

    Now if you want to argue that we'd be better off using up our cap space in 2012 for 2 guys like Nash & Bynum over investing it all on CP3, then you have a much more interesting argument. I could see a lot of valid reasons why it might be better using up cap space next summer on 2 very good players to fill more holes than just 1 elite one, but we're not at that point yet where we can even have that discussion until we know exactly what the next CBA will entail.

  4. #109
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Red, I would have taken Melo over Bynum too. Look, when you have a chance to get an ELITE talent in the NBA, you go for it. Those types of players are the hardest to come by. Bynum would have been a very nice acquisition, but for the price we gave up for Melo I wouldn't have even considered it, & I wager neither would have the NY Knicks or any other NBA team. If we were talking about choosing between either Dwight Howard or Melo, then I would have taken Dwight Howard, but all we're doing here is talking in dream scenario hypotheticals here. What we DO know is that we got 1 of the best players in the NBA on our roster now to partner with STAT to build the foundation of our franchise. If I had to do that trade over again I would have done it everytime. I'm happy with that.

    As for the issue about targetting CP3 in 2012 or going after a C now, once again, what C's are we talking about here? We don't have the cap space to target any C's that are even worthwhile at this point. We're talking about choosing between someone like Sam Dalembert at the absolute best right now over waiting out a season for names like Deron, CP3, D12, Nash, Bynum, etc. in 2012. Is that even worth debating at this point? Not for me. & My guess is the Knicks aren't even considering bypassing a chance at stars like that next year just so they can lock up a role playing C now.

    Now if you want to argue that we'd be better off using up our cap space in 2012 for 2 guys like Nash & Bynum over investing it all on CP3, then you have a much more interesting argument. I could see a lot of valid reasons why it might be better using up cap space next summer on 2 very good players to fill more holes than just 1 elite one, but we're not at that point yet where we can even have that discussion until we know exactly what the next CBA will entail.

    Great post. I pretty much agree on all fronts.

    And btw, I can't even take a Melo vs. Bynum discussion seriously. Yes, Bynum has serious potential, but you simply can't rely on him to stay healthy. The guy is a 24 year old 7-footer with MULTIPLE knee surgeries under his belt and an average of LESS than 60 Games played per season. On the other hand, Melo is a proven, durable, 27 year old all-pro NBA player who is widely considered one of, if not the best all-around one-on-one scorer in the world.
    Last edited by keyser soze; Jul 17, 2011 at 12:52.

  5. #110
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    I only think we should pass up on CP3 if we can pick up a quality replacement at guard for him. Nash, in my mind, is more than a quality replacement.

    Do you get the best pass-first overall PG in the entire league and a bunch of scrubs?

    Or do you get the third-best pass-first overall PG in the entire league and a JaVale McGee type Center who can block shots and actually stop people?

    If Nash weren't comparable to CP3 on offense I wouldn't consider it, but I honestly think Nash might be BETTER than CP3 on offense, especially in a system when we have an elite wing player like Carmelo and an elite PF like Amar'e. Nash is a better shooter than CP3, in fact Nash might be the best shooter in the entire NBA, and on a team where we don't really have THAT much outside shooting (especially if we have Iman Shumpert at SG, Carmelo at SF, and Amar'e at PF), Nash adds an extra threat for us considering he might be the best 3-point shooter in the league.

    Imagine the amount of damage we have on offense. Nash can hit the transition 3 extremely well. He has Carmelo to pass to on the wing. He can run Pick and Roll with Amar'e. If we pick up an elite rebounder to work with Steve Nash I think our transition game might turn into the most scary one in the entire NBA because of how versatile it would be.

    Yes I know we could be just as good with CP3 but if you can pick up an elite rebounder too then why not?

    Again this isn't a matter of picking up two roleplayers instead of a superstar. This is a matter of picking up a slightly (ever so slightly) crappier superstar and adding an elite roleplayer instead of just picking up a single superstar. Yes, I do believe that Nash has reached superstar level, what with the 2 MVPs and the amazing shooting and the ridiculous passing and all that.

  6. #111
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    I only think we should pass up on CP3 if we can pick up a quality replacement at guard for him. Nash, in my mind, is more than a quality replacement.

    Do you get the best pass-first overall PG in the entire league and a bunch of scrubs?

    Or do you get the third-best pass-first overall PG in the entire league and a JaVale McGee type Center who can block shots and actually stop people?

    If Nash weren't comparable to CP3 on offense I wouldn't consider it, but I honestly think Nash might be BETTER than CP3 on offense, especially in a system when we have an elite wing player like Carmelo and an elite PF like Amar'e. Nash is a better shooter than CP3, in fact Nash might be the best shooter in the entire NBA, and on a team where we don't really have THAT much outside shooting (especially if we have Iman Shumpert at SG, Carmelo at SF, and Amar'e at PF), Nash adds an extra threat for us considering he might be the best 3-point shooter in the league.

    Imagine the amount of damage we have on offense. Nash can hit the transition 3 extremely well. He has Carmelo to pass to on the wing. He can run Pick and Roll with Amar'e. If we pick up an elite rebounder to work with Steve Nash I think our transition game might turn into the most scary one in the entire NBA because of how versatile it would be.

    Yes I know we could be just as good with CP3 but if you can pick up an elite rebounder too then why not?

    Again this isn't a matter of picking up two roleplayers instead of a superstar. This is a matter of picking up a slightly (ever so slightly) crappier superstar and adding an elite roleplayer instead of just picking up a single superstar. Yes, I do believe that Nash has reached superstar level, what with the 2 MVPs and the amazing shooting and the ridiculous passing and all that.
    Nash and Dalembert?

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    ...Yes, in a perfect world. Except I wouldn't want to trade any of our assets for Nash. I want to give this Iman Shumpert kid a chance.

  8. #113
    Member keyser soze's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    ...Yes, in a perfect world. Except I wouldn't want to trade any of our assets for Nash. I want to give this Iman Shumpert kid a chance.
    yeah, the only way landing Nash makes any sense is if we sign him next summer.

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    Yes indeed. I do think our best solution would be to sign D12 at C. Then convince Steve Nash to take the minimum salary to play close to home (lives in NY) with Amar'e, Carmelo, and D12.

    Nash
    Shumpert
    Carmelo
    Amar'e
    D12

    would be the best team ever in the history of basketball.

  10. #115
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Yes indeed. I do think our best solution would be to sign D12 at C. Then convince Steve Nash to take the minimum salary to play close to home (lives in NY) with Amar'e, Carmelo, and D12.

    Nash
    Shumpert
    Carmelo
    Amar'e
    D12

    would be the best team ever in the history of basketball.
    We'd seriously put an end to the league. It would become the NKA...every game would be a formality and the end result would always be the same...Jordan would consider a come back.

    And I'm not overstating a single thing, that would seriously be the nastiest ****ing team ever assembled.

  11. #116
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Yes indeed. I do think our best solution would be to sign D12 at C. Then convince Steve Nash to take the minimum salary to play close to home (lives in NY) with Amar'e, Carmelo, and D12.

    Nash
    Shumpert
    Carmelo
    Amar'e
    D12

    would be the best team ever in the history of basketball.
    O________O

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    You have to admit, even if it doesn't have a great chance of happening, the idea of having Melo, STAT, D12, and Nash is probably enough to make any Knicks fan jizz in his pants. We have rebounding (D12), post play (D12, Carmelo, Amar'e), interior toughness (D12, Amar'e if he actually tries), an elite wing player (Carmelo), excellent shooting (Carmelo, Nash), excellent 3-point shooting (Carmelo, Nash), and if we keep Shumpert then we also have excellent defense in the backcourt and D12 being the monster that he is will guard our frontcourt to the death.

    Best of all is Carmelo is a great off the ball player so he can do great with Nash as the primary ballhandler and Amar'e has already worked to dominate while on the same team as Nash. D12 and Carmelo played together in 2008 so that team would be so good on offense that it could dominate anyone. Seriously, FOUR out of FIVE players on that roster demand a double team. Think about that for a second.

    Imagine D12 grabbing a rebound on the break and passing to Nash who now has 4 options. He can run the pick and roll with Amar'e or D12, he can get it to D12 or Carmelo in the post, he can give it to Carmelo if he sees an open lane, he can take the pull-up 3 and make it...goodness.

  13. #118
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    You have to admit, even if it doesn't have a great chance of happening, the idea of having Melo, STAT, D12, and Nash is probably enough to make any Knicks fan jizz in his pants. We have rebounding (D12), post play (D12, Carmelo, Amar'e), interior toughness (D12, Amar'e if he actually tries), an elite wing player (Carmelo), excellent shooting (Carmelo, Nash), excellent 3-point shooting (Carmelo, Nash), and if we keep Shumpert then we also have excellent defense in the backcourt and D12 being the monster that he is will guard our frontcourt to the death.

    Best of all is Carmelo is a great off the ball player so he can do great with Nash as the primary ballhandler and Amar'e has already worked to dominate while on the same team as Nash. D12 and Carmelo played together in 2008 so that team would be so good on offense that it could dominate anyone. Seriously, FOUR out of FIVE players on that roster demand a double team. Think about that for a second.

    Imagine D12 grabbing a rebound on the break and passing to Nash who now has 4 options. He can run the pick and roll with Amar'e or D12, he can get it to D12 or Carmelo in the post, he can give it to Carmelo if he sees an open lane, he can take the pull-up 3 and make it...goodness.
    Yeah, it truly would be scary. That team would be so good that even if opposing teams step up their game for us it would be extremely tough for them.

    Also, think about our bench. Imagine we got T-Mac as our back-up PG, a player who used to play at a superstar level. He hasn't played at that level a lot in a while, but he's in much better condition and would be huge for a contending team. Imagine him on that team.

    And Landry. He's already shown he's good off the ball, imagine him with Nash.

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    Two high-IQ players in Nash and Landry Fields playing together would truly be catastrophic for the rest of the league. Fields made great cuts when everyone else on our team was stinking it up IQ-wise...imagine if Nash is on his team.

    I'm still saying that the Knicks need to make D12 priority #1 and Steve Nash #2. I'd gladly pass up the proposed Melo-wedding toast CP3 trio to get D12 and Nash. We could easily get Nash to sign here for the minimum considering he's never won a title yet, so...

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