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Thread: 3 Roster Spots Remain - 2 Cs + 1 PF: A List Of Panic Button Questions

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Question Mark 3 Roster Spots Remain - 2 Cs + 1 PF: A List Of Panic Button Questions

    A list of questions por vous.

    What the F are we going to do?

    Why did we try and trade For Omri Casspi with this obvious, gaping hole?

    Is Jefferies return inevitable?

    Are we going to retain our 'Small Ball' mentality? Trial and error?

    Are we still talking about Steve Nash and CP3 when our 5 spot consists of an arthritic Ronny T and a late 2nd pick.

    Is a 3rd star even within the realms of intelligent thinking?

    With Nene and Chandler testing FA, was re-signing Billups a good call?


    Who hates the Andy Rautins signing more than me? Rhetoric/pointless.

    3 spots and a giant mess. Who has what it takes to tackle this dilemma, here on knicksonline.com?

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    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    I think to be perfectly honest the front office did not see us making serious noise this season, hence why we kept Billups player option, so we would have a large expiring which may tempt some teams (especially if the cap is lowered) and also he would potentially feel loyal to us to sign a cheap deal in 2012 to stick around.

    The only real possibility to make serious roster improvements is via trades and most teams that have a decent center also have decent guards, it's front office 101 that you need a solid C and a solid backcourt. We are one of the few teams who fails to subscribe to this notion.

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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    A list of questions por vous.

    What the F are we going to do?


    Good question. Not many options unfortunately.

    Why did we try and trade For Omri Casspi with this obvious, gaping hole?
    Because our head coach values 3 pt shooting a lot more than he does interior defense.

    Is Jefferies return inevitable?
    If he's a Knick again next season I'm gonna hurt somebody. Seriously hurt somebody.

    Are we going to retain our 'Small Ball' mentality?
    As long as MDA is our head coach, the answer is likely yes.

    Are we still talking about Steve Nash and CP3 when our 5 spot consists of an arthritic Ronny T and a late 2nd pick.
    Don't forget, we're talking about signing Kwame Brown.

    Is a 3rd star even within the realms of intelligent thinking?
    That all depends on what the other options are.

    With Nene and Chandler testing FA, was re-signing Billups a good call?
    Face it, as long as Dolan is our owner, he's gonna want the big name stars in NY. That's what brings the fans to the games & sells the most jerseys. He was never going to kill any chance at names like CP3, Deron or Dwight to sign up someone like Nene.

    Who hates the Andy Rautins signing more than me? Rhetoric/pointless.
    *raises hand*

    3 spots and a giant mess. Who has what it takes to tackle this dilemma, here on knicksonline.com?
    Kwame Brown
    Jerome Jordan
    Jared Jeffries


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    why is it we take 2 steps forward and 5 steps back with this owner/president....is it me

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    (1) I'm split on TD -- Very quietly I think I'd shop Douglas just to see what I could get for him. Sounds like we could've gotten Omri Casspi for him if we wanted. That wouldn't have been terrible. Casspi would've been pretty good value in return..With Shumpert, I'm not sure where Toney fits now -- with Billups/Shumpert at the 1 and Fields/Walker at the 2, we're pretty much set in the backcourt. Not saying we couldn't use more depth, I know we could. Which is why I'd be OK with TD returning as a 3rd PG. Thing is, he's shown that he's not really a PG and he's an undersized 2. If I could get a team to trade a 2012 1st round pick for him (we currently don't have one), maybe that's the way to go. Then I'd look to bring in another guard on the cheap, arguably more talented than TD anyway --- I'd consider Curtis Jerrells, Curtis Stinson, Matt Bouldin or Sherron Collins as my extra ball-handling guard---there's upside with all 4 guys. Bouldin can even play 2 positions. Sylven Landesberg's out there too if they wanted another legit 2 to go along with Fields and Walker (or instead of Walker). Give Andy Rautins a shot -- maybe he could be that guy. Ben Hansbrough really would've been perfect. Too bad we didn't show enough interest -- I would've jumped all over him. Very similar player to Jimmer Fredette only it wouldn't have taken a lottery pick to get him. Just a training camp invite.

    (2) They need to figure out what they wanna do at backup 3. I'd be OK with Shawne Williams returning as long as he doesn't look to hold us up for too much money. If he and his agent get together and decide to play games with us, he can walk for all I care. Notre Dame's Tim Abromaitis and Arizona's Jamelle Horne both went undrafted and could slide right into that role for less money.

    (3) I'd like another skill F behind Melo and STAT. I think Joe Alexander or DeShawn Sims would be perfect. Both can play either 3 or 4 in certain matchups. Both guys have very good talent and had exceptional seasons in the DL last year. I'd be OK with either guy -- not much difference talent-wise between either of these guys and the Morris brothers from Kansas if you ask me (esp. Marcus who's more similar to Alexander/Sims than Markieff).

    (4) I don't think we need a star in the middle. Just enough size and steady production. We should be OK with a Jerome Jordan/Jorts/Turiaf mix. If Jorts doesn't make the team and we wind up looking for an extra big, I'd look for size and rebounding above all else. Dwayne Jones would be perfect. The guy's big enough at 6'11" 250 and has rebounded at a monster clip wherever he's been and gotten playing time (St. Joseph's, the NBDL, China). The perfect lunch-pail player to put in there next to Amar'e if you ask me. He'd clog the lane, rotate well on defense, keep Amar'e out of foul trouble, block a shot or 2 and grab every rebound in sight. Plus he wouldn't require the ball on offense at all but unlike a Jared Jeffries he can score it in close if need be without looking like a complete fool.

    (5) Two guys I'd keep a close eye on are PF Jeff Adrien and C Marcus Cousin. I think both are under contract with NBA teams (Adrien with GS, Cousin with Houston) though either could get cut by the time the season starts. Their contracts may not be fully guaranteed..Adrien would add toughness and rebounding and Cousin's definitely skilled enough to play 5 in the NBA. If he becomes available, I'd scoop him up in a heartbeat. He'd automatically become the best C option for this team, ahead of Jordan, Jorts and Turiaf imo.
    Last edited by finestrg; Jul 12, 2011 at 13:07.

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    Originally Posted by STAT1


    Good question. Not many options unfortunately.

    Because our head coach values 3 pt shooting a lot more than he does interior defense.

    If he's a Knick again next season I'm gonna hurt somebody. Seriously hurt somebody.

    As long as MDA is our head coach, the answer is likely yes.

    Don't forget, we're talking about signing Kwame Brown.

    That all depends on what the other options are.

    Face it, as long as Dolan is our owner, he's gonna want the big name stars in NY. That's what brings the fans to the games & sells the most jerseys. He was never going to kill any chance at names like CP3, Deron or Dwight to sign up someone like Nene.

    *raises hand*

    Kwame Brown
    Jerome Jordan
    Jared Jeffries

    All so disgustingly true and well put.

    Originally Posted by finestrg
    (1) I'm split on TD -- Very quietly I think I'd shop Douglas just to see what I could get for him. Sounds like we could've gotten Omri Casspi for him if we wanted. That wouldn't have been terrible. Casspi would've been pretty good value in return..With Shumpert, I'm not sure where Toney fits now -- with Billups/Shumpert at the 1 and Fields/Walker at the 2, we're pretty much set in the backcourt. Not saying we couldn't use more depth, I know we could. Which is why I'd be OK with TD returning as a 3rd PG. Thing is, he's shown that he's not really a PG and he's an undersized 2. If I could get a team to trade a 2012 1st round pick for him (we currently don't have one), maybe that's the way to go. Then I'd look to bring in another guard on the cheap, arguably more talented than TD anyway --- I'd consider Curtis Jerrells, Curtis Stinson, Matt Bouldin or Sherron Collins as my extra ball-handling guard---there's upside with all 4 guys. Bouldin can even play 2 positions. Sylven Landesberg's out there too if they wanted another legit 2 to go along with Fields and Walker (or instead of Walker). Give Andy Rautins a shot -- maybe he could be that guy. Ben Hansbrough really would've been perfect. Too bad we didn't show enough interest -- I would've jumped all over him. Very similar player to Jimmer Fredette only it wouldn't have taken a lottery pick to get him. Just a training camp invite.

    (2) They need to figure out what they wanna do at backup 3. I'd be OK with Shawne Williams returning as long as he doesn't look to hold us up for too much money. If he and his agent get together and decide to play games with us, he can walk for all I care. Notre Dame's Tim Abromaitis and Arizona's Jamelle Horne both went undrafted and could slide right into that role for less money.

    (3) I'd like another skill F behind Melo and STAT. I think Joe Alexander or DeShawn Sims would be perfect. Both can play either 3 or 4 in certain matchups. Both guys have very good talent and had exceptional seasons in the DL last year. I'd be OK with either guy -- not much difference talent-wise between either of these guys and the Morris brothers from Kansas if you ask me (esp. Marcus who's more similar to Alexander/Sims than Markieff).

    (4) I don't think we need a star in the middle. Just enough size and steady production. We should be OK with a Jerome Jordan/Jorts/Turiaf mix. If Jorts doesn't make the team and we wind up looking for an extra big, I'd look for size and rebounding above all else. Dwayne Jones would be perfect. The guy's big enough at 6'11" 250 and has rebounded at a monster clip wherever he's been and gotten playing time (St. Joseph's, the NBDL, China). The perfect lunch-pail player to put in there next to Amar'e if you ask me. He'd clog the lane, rotate well on defense, keep Amar'e out of foul trouble, block a shot or 2 and grab every rebound in sight. Plus he wouldn't require the ball on offense at all but unlike a Jared Jeffries he can score it in close if need be without looking like a complete fool.

    (5) Two guys I'd keep a close eye on are PF Jeff Adrien and C Marcus Cousin. I think both are under contract with NBA teams (Adrien with GS, Cousin with Houston) though either could get cut by the time the season starts. Their contracts may not be fully guaranteed..Adrien would add toughness and rebounding and Cousin's definitely skilled enough to play 5 in the NBA. If he becomes available, I'd scoop him up in a heartbeat. He'd automatically become the best C option for this team, ahead of Jordan, Jorts and Turiaf imo.
    Regarding #4, I don't see a night on, night off PF/C and 2 late round firsts as an amendable option for this team, simply because I don't think the 3 headed 5 will be used appropriately - or with any sense of worth - by D'Antoni.

    Marcus Cousin is a good call.

    Thanks for your in depth look at it, squire.

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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    A list of questions por vous.

    What the F are we going to do?

    Why did we try and trade For Omri Casspi with this obvious, gaping hole?

    Is Jefferies return inevitable?

    Are we going to retain our 'Small Ball' mentality? Trial and error?

    Are we still talking about Steve Nash and CP3 when our 5 spot consists of an arthritic Ronny T and a late 2nd pick.

    Is a 3rd star even within the realms of intelligent thinking?

    With Nene and Chandler testing FA, was re-signing Billups a good call?


    Who hates the Andy Rautins signing more than me? Rhetoric/pointless.

    3 spots and a giant mess. Who has what it takes to tackle this dilemma, here on knicksonline.com?
    Seriously.

    We are so terrible at the Center position right now it's unbelievable. We have Turiaf, a guy who can only play 15 minutes a night, as our best option at the 5. He's good when he plays, but that's WHEN HE PLAYS.

    THIS is why we've resorted to seeking out help such as Kwame Brown in order to fix our rebounding woes. We desperately need someone who can block shots, and quite frankly, as much as I'd love to see Jorts and Jerome Jordan on this team, there's nothing that says Jorts will ever be a D-League level player let alone a capable NBA player. Jordan I have my hopes but I just haven't seen his game so I can't say anything. In truth, Turiaf is more of a PF anyway - he'd serve better as a backup to Amar'e than he would as a starting Center, in an ideal world.

    If we pick up Jerome Jordan's contract and sign Kwame Brown we can have this rotation:

    PG - Billups/Toney Douglas
    SG - Shumpert/Bill Walker
    SF - Carmelo/Landry Fields
    PF - Amar'e/Turiaf
    C - Kwame Brown/Jerome Jordan

    That's not half bad for a 10-man rotation, is it? Keep Shawne Williams on as well, he's been good for us.

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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Seriously.

    We are so terrible at the Center position right now it's unbelievable. We have Turiaf, a guy who can only play 15 minutes a night, as our best option at the 5. He's good when he plays, but that's WHEN HE PLAYS.

    THIS is why we've resorted to seeking out help such as Kwame Brown in order to fix our rebounding woes. We desperately need someone who can block shots, and quite frankly, as much as I'd love to see Jorts and Jerome Jordan on this team, there's nothing that says Jorts will ever be a D-League level player let alone a capable NBA player. Jordan I have my hopes but I just haven't seen his game so I can't say anything. In truth, Turiaf is more of a PF anyway - he'd serve better as a backup to Amar'e than he would as a starting Center, in an ideal world.

    If we pick up Jerome Jordan's contract and sign Kwame Brown we can have this rotation:

    PG - Billups/Toney Douglas
    SG - Shumpert/Bill Walker
    SF - Carmelo/Landry Fields
    PF - Amar'e/Turiaf
    C - Kwame Brown/Jerome Jordan

    That's not half bad for a 10-man rotation, is it? Keep Shawne Williams on as well, he's been good for us.
    That is not a bad 10-man rotation....although we could do much
    better if our first move in August is to swallow (eat) Dantoni remaining
    year contract.
    I do not see any NBA veteran center willing to come to the Knicks
    with Mike Dantoni as the headcoach. Hanging-on to Dantoni we let
    to many better coaches slip by us.
    Giving Herb Williams the interim headcoaching job with Chuancy Billups
    orchestrating the offense/defense scheme would be a fresh start for a
    new winning Knick-Team.
    Rather than sign Kwame Brown we could give D.League Sean Williams a
    one year contract to "Defend our open Paint area" with shotblocking,
    rebounds, and put-backs. Plus sign Jerome Jordan so injury-prone (arthritic)
    Ronny Turiaf will have two young athletic understudy practicing hard to
    take his playingtime minutes.

    We have to sign the best starting SG in the 2011 FA market to put with
    Billups to give a great backcourt tutorship to our young guards of
    "Shumpert/ Fields/and Toney Douglas". So far the best available player
    for the role is combo-guard Arron Brooks.....his quick mentality of
    creating teamenship-skills of sharing the ball under any circumstance
    would go great with Billups leadership of this new Knick team.
    We will have to move fast before Phoenix Suns sign both Brooks & Sean...

    PG-Billups & TD
    SG-Brooks & Fields
    SF-Melo & Shawn
    PF-Amare & Turiaf
    C-Sean & Jordan
    Reserves: Walker, Shumpert, Brown, ???, ???

    Our number-one main objective is having a headcoach that will give playingtime to 10+ players per-game (win or lose) by playing each
    player to their best stregnth so their teammates know how to gell
    with each other.
    We have no 2012 first-round draft pick....so we have to raise the
    trading-value of all 15-players on the 2011-12 roster.
    Mike Dantoni and Brother Dan are not capable of completing half of
    this task...


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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Seriously.

    We are so terrible at the Center position right now it's unbelievable. We have Turiaf, a guy who can only play 15 minutes a night, as our best option at the 5. He's good when he plays, but that's WHEN HE PLAYS.

    THIS is why we've resorted to seeking out help such as Kwame Brown in order to fix our rebounding woes. We desperately need someone who can block shots, and quite frankly, as much as I'd love to see Jorts and Jerome Jordan on this team, there's nothing that says Jorts will ever be a D-League level player let alone a capable NBA player. Jordan I have my hopes but I just haven't seen his game so I can't say anything. In truth, Turiaf is more of a PF anyway - he'd serve better as a backup to Amar'e than he would as a starting Center, in an ideal world.

    If we pick up Jerome Jordan's contract and sign Kwame Brown we can have this rotation:

    PG - Billups/Toney Douglas
    SG - Shumpert/Bill Walker
    SF - Carmelo/Landry Fields
    PF - Amar'e/Turiaf
    C - Kwame Brown/Jerome Jordan

    That's not half bad for a 10-man rotation, is it? Keep Shawne Williams on as well, he's been good for us.
    I'd sign for that 10-man rotation right now. The only thing is, I suspect that the Knicks are going to try and develop Sumpert as a pure PG (or at least predominantly as a PG), so, I would switch Toney D and Shumpert (I could actually envision lineups with a Shumpert and Billups backcourt where billups mans the 2).

    If you think about it, though, that 10 man rotation is a perfect compromise in that :
    1) It gives us much needed size by adding a "starting" (I use this term rather loosely) center over 6'10 who can rebound and block shots.

    2) It keeps the CP3 hopes alive and well.

    3) It gives Turiaf a reduced role so that we don't have to rely on his chronically injured ass.

    4) It allows Amare to play his natural position full-time.

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    Heres what I would like to see:

    C-Kwame
    PF-Amare
    SF-Melo
    SG-Fields
    PG-Billups

    Bench:
    Shumpert
    Douglas
    *Vet Signing*
    Shawne Williams
    Turiaf
    Harrelson
    Bill Walker

    Not much of an upgrade but still an upgrade. Jerome Jordan and Rautins with our D-League Affiliate. The vet signing I would really love is Shane Battier but he needs starter minutes and not sure if he would accept playing SG.

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    A 10-man rotation should consist of scorers & stoppers....

    The Knicks biggest weakness with David Lee, then Amare, then Amare & Melo
    has all been the same....No bigmen frontcourt to stop or defend
    the easy layup line in the paint.
    A weak team area that couldve been resolved by 4 defensive-fouls
    each from players "Jordan Hill, Darko, Mozgov, AR, and Wilson Chandler"
    if the Knicks make-believe headcoach had a team-defensive plan in his
    mentality.

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    Just my two cents:

    5 - Dwayne Jones (1st choice is Marcus Cousin if Houston cuts him loose)
    4 - STAT
    3 - Melo
    2 - Fields
    1 - Billups
    --------------
    • Shumpert
    • Douglas
    • Shawne Williams (Jamelle Horne or Tim Abromaitis if Williams and his agent demand too much money.)
    • Joe Alexander or DeShawn Sims (I want 1 more skill forward coming off this bench.)
    • Walker (I would've went in a different direction at backup 2 but it looks like Walker will be back.)
    • Turiaf
    • J. Jordan
    • Jorts (Is he an NBA player or not? We need to find out. Summer league would've been enormous for us this year..If Harrellson really can't play, don't waste the roster spot.)
    • Rautins (They need to figure out what to do with this kid -- is he part of the plans or not? He either needs to play and they develop him or they need to trade him/cut him. Make use of that shooting stroke for Christ's sake. If he shows he can contribute more than Walker, he plays ahead of Walker. Simple.)
    • Balkman (first taker to come along can have him. If we can't unload him, buy him out and open up the roster spot.)

    *Jeff Adrien was cut by the Warriors btw. Confirmed. If we really want to tighten up the rebounding (and say we aren't interested in Dwayne Jones which, knowing our stubborn, close-minded coach we probably aren't), I'd scoop Adrien up ASAP. Gimmie Dwayne Jones and/or Jeff Adrien to solve the rebounding problem at a good cost. Simple as that. Esp. if Jorts can't contribute at this level.

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    Question on Derrick Brown -- unless I'm mistaken, I think we picked up his QO at some point before the lockout. What does that mean exactly? If no team comes along and tenders him an offer sheet, are we stuck with him now?

    I personally think we could do better. I don't think D'Antoni's that enamoured with him anyway to be honest. There's some nice athleticism & raw talent there for sure but it's gonna take awhile to develop it. As of now, no real outside shot, shaky handle and no real position--this guy's stuck between the 3 & 4 without the overall game for either spot...I don't see him developing here under our coach..I think either Joe Alexander or DeShawn Sims each have a higher skill level and would be better options. This is what I want out of my reserve forwards: One guy has to be able to play close to the basket - post up and rebound a little bit; the other guy I want to be a shooter -- either we bring back Shawne Williams or we replace him with someone similar i.e. Jamelle Horne, Tim Abromaitis, maybe bring in Matt Bouldin as an extra big guard where Bill Walker inherits S. Williams' old role, etc. Brown doesn't fit either role really..

    So what's the deal -- did we extend the QO with the intention of keeping Brown or just to control him for the time being for some reason? Will he be part of the 15-man roster coming up? It'd be a complete waste for everyone involved, Brown & the Knicks, if we retained him and then didn't play him and give him the development time he needs..I personally think he needs ample time in the DL to develop a game and an identity.
    Last edited by finestrg; Jul 15, 2011 at 08:41.

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    Originally Posted by keyser soze
    I'd sign for that 10-man rotation right now. The only thing is, I suspect that the Knicks are going to try and develop Sumpert as a pure PG (or at least predominantly as a PG), so, I would switch Toney D and Shumpert (I could actually envision lineups with a Shumpert and Billups backcourt where billups mans the 2).

    If you think about it, though, that 10 man rotation is a perfect compromise in that :
    1) It gives us much needed size by adding a "starting" (I use this term rather loosely) center over 6'10 who can rebound and block shots.

    2) It keeps the CP3 hopes alive and well.

    3) It gives Turiaf a reduced role so that we don't have to rely on his chronically injured ass.

    4) It allows Amare to play his natural position full-time.
    With regards to Shumpert I read Alan Hahn say that they would play Shumpert at the 1 on offense but at the 2 on defense. Of course I assume this would change if we went up against a team with a lightning quick PG like Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo but I think for the most part they went Shumpert guarding SGs and Billups guarding slower PGs. Shumpert is basically going to always be guarding the best backcourt player on the other team - in fact, I think the Knicks got him for the sole purpose of containing Wade, Rose, Rondo, D-Will, CP3, Kobe, etc.

    I intentionally went with that rotation because I think what we need if we don't buy into the Steve Nash hype is more rebounding and shotblocking (and even if we do get Nash we still need those things). We don't need an AMAZING center but we need someone who can block shots and rebound. Turiaf fills the role but he gets hurt WAY too much. Seems like he gets hurt every single time he plays more than 30 minutes, and we can't have that. At the very least we know Kwame is durable, and if we get him on a minimum contract for a year, it could be a low-risk high-reward move.

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