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Thread: CENTER -vs- CP3 redux:

  1. #31
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    The premise is based on the FACT that it's difficult enough to get talent to sign for less than market value, so adding another max contract eqautes to even more of a difficulty.

    You exaggeratingly mentioned CP3 fills a need. Filling the position may be a need, using max contract dollars is WHAT'S NOT NEEDED.

    What's actually needed, is a team with size and depth added to Stat & Melo. CP3 isn't equated to size and depth. CP3's expected contract (max) negates what's needed, size and depth.

    By considering passing on size and depth by hoping for CP3 a year from now is akin to taking one step forward and two steps back.

    There doesn't have to be a "who" exactly, because it's about "what". What will be accomplished by over spending for another star vs scrapping that plan and trying to acquire size and depth?

    A three star team devoid of size and depth with no hopes of acquiring any semblance of quality size and depth.

    If you argue, we can still acquire size and depth and get CP3, then really there is no argument, and I'll look forward to our additions, but we all know it's a trade-off at this point.

    Plan for CP3 and we'll sacrifice possible trades and acqusitions of less than spectacular players, only to continually field a "incomplete" team. The same issue you and MOA supporters argued for years- which is ironic.

    Plan to add as much quality depth and size if the situation presents itself, and it will become apparent just as it is to me, we don't "NEED" CP3...

    Not at this juncture
    It's a short term trade off not immediately going after size but once CP3 is on board we can and will address our size issues over the next few years. Look at Miami, they got two games away with a bunch of scrubs at center. They WILL win and WILL add to their roster over the next few years.

    Any center we can acquire will either be a notch above scrub status or we will have to get very lucky. That type of talent out of the center position can be had either way. Sure, you can go and overpay a D. Jordan(if he even agrees to come) or a center of his caliber but that will only be incrementally better to a center that can be obtained after CP3. I will take CP3 and a center who is 5 out of 10 than Billups(for 1-2 years max) and a center that is 7 out of 10.

    If you told me I could get D12/Horford or another stud at center instead of CP3 then I would have to take a real hard look. (I actually would take D12 in a sec)

  2. #32
    Member NYallDay's Avatar
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    Totally agree with you and again....HEAT were within 2 games of winning it all in their first yr together and they dont even have the most optimal big 3. One thing tho....plz dont put Howard and Horford in the same sentence!

    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    It's a short term trade off not immediately going after size but once CP3 is on board we can and will address our size issues over the next few years. Look at Miami, they got two games away with a bunch of scrubs at center. They WILL win and WILL add to their roster over the next few years.

    Any center we can acquire will either be a notch above scrub status or we will have to get very lucky. That type of talent out of the center position can be had either way. Sure, you can go and overpay a D. Jordan(if he even agrees to come) or a center of his caliber but that will only be incrementally better to a center that can be obtained after CP3. I will take CP3 and a center who is 5 out of 10 than Billups(for 1-2 years max) and a center that is 7 out of 10.

    If you told me I could get D12/Horford or another stud at center instead of CP3 then I would have to take a real hard look. (I actually would take D12 in a sec)

  3. #33
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    It's a short term trade off not immediately going after size but once CP3 is on board we can and will address our size issues over the next few years. Look at Miami, they got two games away with a bunch of scrubs at center. They WILL win and WILL add to their roster over the next few years.

    Any center we can acquire will either be a notch above scrub status or we will have to get very lucky. That type of talent out of the center position can be had either way. Sure, you can go and overpay a D. Jordan(if he even agrees to come) or a center of his caliber but that will only be incrementally better to a center that can be obtained after CP3. I will take CP3 and a center who is 5 out of 10 than Billups(for 1-2 years max) and a center that is 7 out of 10.

    If you told me I could get D12/Horford or another stud at center instead of CP3 then I would have to take a real hard look. (I actually would take D12 in a sec)
    That 1st bolded statement absolutely kills me! I can't do it.
    And I don't know how you even think that's possible- we can't even fit our needs now without the extra max.

    The 2nd bolded I didn't understand.


    Originally Posted by NYallDay
    Totally agree with you and again....HEAT were within 2 games of winning it all in their first yr together and they dont even have the most optimal big 3. One thing tho....plz dont put Howard and Horford in the same sentence!
    The HEAT don't have 3 max contracts... hello!?

    We have assets to trade... do it

  4. #34
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Perhaps we should be looking at other positions for defense. If we can't get a good a enough defensive center we still need defense at the back-up 4 and other positions. One of my problems with getting a max contract PG over a non-existent good defensive center (unless we get Dalembert) is because Chris Paul is a move that wouldn't surprise me if it only made us significantly better. Significantly better doesn't equate to a championship. We could make the Finals, we can wins games in the Finals, that doesn't mean we'll win it all. We have to build a team that's ready for any team in our way. The Grizzlies are a match-up problem for any team. Yes, we beat them in the regular season, but they're getting better, and just imagine when Rudy Gay comes back (and they did do good when he played with that team, so it wasn't a case of they were better without him).

    The Mavs didn't win a championship for many years, they also didn't have the center. Also, who beat the Mavs in 2008? That's right, the same team that had Chandler, the Hornets. CP3, Chandler, West, and Peja, and being a defensive team, took the Spurs to game 7 in the next round. That's with one superstar. The problem they had the next year was they played a team with depth on both side of the floor and the Hornets had nobody aside from Paul to handle the ball enough. The Nuggets lost the next round, and to who? The Lakers, another deep team that cause match-up problems on both sides of the floor on the perimeter and frontcourt. Kobe is great, he also had significant help on both sides of floor.

    Which duo is better, CP3 and David West or Melo and Stoudemire? It's debatable because of positions. We do have two superstars regardless. The two superstars we do have aren't that good/consistent on defense. What they bring is offense. Offense that makes the opposing teams plan for two superstars.

    nuckles has pointed out the annual increases in salaries of Melo and STAT, and that's why he thinks we should go after Chris Paul because we're not (unless we get Dalembert) getting a good defensive center. Well, no matter what, having a lot of cap room won't disappear. Losing a lot in cap space? Yeah. Not being able to spend a lot? I highly doubt that, especially since we wouldn't be waiting that long to round our roster. Billups I'm guessing won't cost that much either. Billups, another guy the defense will have to work hard against.

    The Bulls don't need another superstar. They just need a shooting guard defenders have to plan for and who can handle the ball, somebody who doesn't pass off quickly such as Korver. If the Bulls got Joe Johnson and he played average with them too, it still would have helped because they can't leave him open and he can handle the ball good enough. Simple as that. We have several guys who can do that, and have the money for more guys who can handle the ball and be good enough in other areas offensively, and get good defenders.

    Here's what we should do in my opinion:

    1. Go after a good defensive center and who's not a liability on offense like Jeffries. Our amount of options aren't great, it doesn't mean we don't go for it first. We have to. If we get Dalembert our worry for match-ups would be greatly reduced because when we face a team such as the Lakers, we're gonna need somebody to protect the paint. Defending Bynum and Pau isn't easy. In case you didn't know, they play on the floor at the same time. Dalembert would also help out on offense and open up things a little more.

    Now for the plans in case we don't get a good enough defensive center. We might be able to get at least one of these players that I mention specifically if we get Dalembert. Have to mention it in case anybody would misunderstand me if I didn't mention it because of our cap with Billups' current contract.

    2. Go after the best defenders available. We have only two positions set, our starting SF and our starting PF. Don't panic if we spend more than the minimum on defenders, we have two superstar scorers. Defense creates offense, and offense creates defense. Chuck Hayes, Reggie Evans, and Shane Battier would be our starters and bench. Hayes and Battier bring a little something on offense, Hayes' free throw shooting even shot up! Oh, and we we have Turiaf. What about the scoring on our bench? Well, here's number 3 on that:

    3. For one Melo or Stoudemire will be on the floor at all times. A little worried there's not enough offense on the bench? Well since Hayes, Evans, Battier or whoever the best defenders we get are, it'll leave us some room for money to spend on offense. Imagine us getting significant players on defense, and still being able to get a player or two who will will make defenders be cautious and even worried that even though they realize they have two superstars (and even Billups) to deal with, they'll have to deal with MORE solid/good scorers who can HANDLE THE BALL WELL. I'd spend several million on Beno Udrih if he became available and we got a few good enough defenders if we have the cap space.

    In short, getting the best defenders available along with getting players who can get defenders to be hesitant to double team our superstars (Billups helps us out with that now, let's add on to it), we could become a GREAT team.
    Last edited by RunningJumper; Jul 19, 2011 at 00:23.

  5. #35
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Unbelievable. "We'll just sign Chris Paul and the rest will fall in to place". I had no idea it was so easy to be GM when all we need is a little blind faith.

  6. #36
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    I can't.. I just.... I can't believe what I'm reading from Knicks fans!

    I swear you guys are delusional. These arguments are just pure ridiculousness.

    And Crazy, I respect you and I think your a smart guy.. But I cannot for the life of me understand why you would come down on the side of those arguing AGAINST getting a player of Paul's ilk..

    I am purely and utterly baffled by you guys..

    Did you people not see how long it took for Dallas to win one???

    Now did you happen to notice how quickly Miami got to the Finals because of the collection of greatness on that team?

    Do the friggin math people. Use logic!

    And don't give that "Yea but.. Yea but shet"..

    Boston won a chip the the first season they got their big three together. And don't say the biggest reason they won is because of the center they had.. Kendrick Perkins averaged 7 points and 6 rebounds that season. That's bullshet. They won because they had 1 legit great player and 2 borderline greats.

    We'd have 2 legit greats and 1 borderline great. You take that. You take that and you don't look back and you don't ask questions. To question getting great players on your team is stupid.

    It is nonsensical to argue against getting a player like Paul.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Jul 18, 2011 at 22:24.

  7. #37
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    That's OK. Nonsense to me is the complete rebuffing of a number of things that make CP3 being a Knick an extreme unlikelihood.

    CBA - Contractual conflict between them and us - better trade offers for NO than we could possibly contest with - We have 2 stars already.

    All in all, making arguments in favour of what is extremely unlikely is pointless.

    We know what our weakness is, I don't see the point in ignoring it any longer than we already have.

  8. #38
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    Acquiring a center or two is a need, but the Knicks will have to be creative in making that move.

    And most likely it will be a three headed center collective group.

    My picks would be Sean Williams, Turiaf, let Jorts and Jerome fight for the third string.

    As far as Melo and Stat go.......

    Melo has proven he is capable of running the offense.

    But why tire him out doing it exclusively, when their is a pg who would make our offense totally crisp in CP3.

    CP3 can definitely decide who the offense runs through as a pg should.

    And contrary to what folks on here believe defense starts from the perimeter, and the center position is the last defense when that breaks down.

    Which is why three interchangeable active bigs can handle the work down their by committee.

    But our backcourt has to be defensive as well.

  9. #39
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knickscity
    Acquiring a center or two is a need, but the Knicks will have to be creative in making that move.

    And most likely it will be a three headed center collective group.

    My picks would be Sean Williams, Turiaf, let Jorts and Jerome fight for the third string.

    As far as Melo and Stat go.......

    Melo has proven he is capable of running the offense.

    But why tire him out doing it exclusively, when their is a pg who would make our offense totally crisp in CP3.

    CP3 can definitely decide who the offense runs through as a pg should.

    And contrary to what folks on here believe defense starts from the perimeter, and the center position is the last defense when that breaks down.

    Which is why three interchangeable active bigs can handle the work down their by committee.

    But our backcourt has to be defensive as well.
    Very nice post. Good knowledge dropped here.

  10. #40
    Member knicksman20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    That's OK. Nonsense to me is the complete rebuffing of a number of things that make CP3 being a Knick an extreme unlikelihood.

    CBA - Contractual conflict between them and us - better trade offers for NO than we could possibly contest with - We have 2 stars already.

    All in all, making arguments in favour of what is extremely unlikely is pointless.

    We know what our weakness is, I don't see the point in ignoring it any longer than we already have.
    Quoted for truth here.

    We NEED to address the teams weakness now or it's going to be the same thing recycled over & over again for us. Amare should NOT be our starting center if we're going to preserve his longevity.

  11. #41
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    Quoted for truth here.

    We NEED to address the teams weakness now or it's going to be the same thing recycled over & over again for us. Amare should NOT be our starting center if we're going to preserve his longevity.
    I guess you didn't read this:

    "Boston won a chip the the first season they got their big three together. And don't say the biggest reason they won is because of the center they had.. Kendrick Perkins averaged 7 points and 6 rebounds that season. That's bullshet. They won because they had 1 legit great player and 2 borderline greats."

    Putting together the great core trumps getting a marginal C people.. smh

    Wake up Knicks fans!

  12. #42
    Member knicksman20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I guess you didn't read this:

    "Boston won a chip the the first season they got their big three together. And don't say the biggest reason they won is because of the center they had.. Kendrick Perkins averaged 7 points and 6 rebounds that season. That's bullshet. They won because they had 1 legit great player and 2 borderline greats."

    Putting together the great core trumps getting a marginal C people.. smh

    Wake up Knicks fans!
    Boston won because they were a better team offensively & especially defensively. They were well rounded, well coached on both sides of the floor, & had a strong bench. The stats might not show but Perk meant MUCH more to that team than his stats. He brought toughness & all kinds of intangibles. Him not being there hurt their playoff run last season. That blueprint worked for them & people are so quick to point that out like it's a given you need a big three to win which just isn't true.

  13. #43
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    Boston won because they were a better team offensively & especially defensively. They were well rounded, well coached on both sides of the floor, & had a strong bench. The stats might not show but Perk meant MUCH more to that team than his stats. He brought toughness & all kinds of intangibles. Him not being there hurt their playoff run last season. That blueprint worked for them & people are so quick to point that out like it's a given you need a big three to win which just isn't true.
    Idt you need a big 3 to win, but it's a good friggin start..

    And Perk contributed, no doubt, but we both know why the Celts won it.

  14. #44
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Very nice post. Good knowledge dropped here.
    I love the vicarious use of self righteousness here. Humble? Not Ron.

    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    Boston won because they were a better team offensively & especially defensively. They were well rounded, well coached on both sides of the floor, & had a strong bench. The stats might not show but Perk meant MUCH more to that team than his stats. He brought toughness & all kinds of intangibles. Him not being there hurt their playoff run last season. That blueprint worked for them & people are so quick to point that out like it's a given you need a big three to win which just isn't true.
    Great knowledge dropped here. It's as if I wrote it myself!

    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Idt you need a big 3 to win, but it's a good friggin start..

    And Perk contributed, no doubt, but we both know why the Celts won it.
    Don't we!? Size, defence and depth. Never mind the fact that they had a big 4.

    Leave the pointless comparisons out. Are we really going to add this to the whole "but D'Antoni was successful in Phoenix" pointless use of point making category?

  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I guess you didn't read this:

    "Boston won a chip the the first season they got their big three together. And don't say the biggest reason they won is because of the center they had.. Kendrick Perkins averaged 7 points and 6 rebounds that season. That's bullshet. They won because they had 1 legit great player and 2 borderline greats."

    Putting together the great core trumps getting a marginal C people.. smh

    Wake up Knicks fans!
    Do we have a 7'2" guy at PF who can grab ten rebounds a game and patrol the paint like the best of them? No? Wait, our PF sucks at defense entirely?

    Got it. The Celtics won because they had great defense and they had great defenders especially in the paint area. Gasol was able to do CRAP against them because Garnett shut his ass down and outplayed him in the series, grabbed more boards than he did, blocked more shots (lol at Pau blocking shots), and all in all owned him on both ends.

    If Amar'e could play the defense that Garnett could (Garnett, at his peak, is probably one of the best defensive PFs of ALL TIME) then we wouldn't be having this discussion about good Centers but that is NOT the case. Not even CLOSE.

    NO team is going to stroll its way to a championship unless it has DEFENSE and PAINT PRESENCE. As of right now we do not have EITHER of those things.

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