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Thread: CENTER -vs- CP3 redux:

  1. #61
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    They won because they were a tremendous defense team that year & probably the best that year. You had KG & Perk patrolling the paint if the perimeter defense failed. Perk showed he could more than hold his own against all other centers in the league.
    Pls, stop overlooking the obvious..

  2. #62
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    I don't think that's the Knicks' braintrust's mindset right now. I think they just don't want to kill any flexibility that they would have next summer so at least they're able to be players in free agency for the big names. This is no different than the summer of 2010. The Knicks will keep their options open & hope that at least 1 of the big names will end up signing with them. In 2010 the Knicks landed STAT by keeping their flexibility do make a big signing. Same situation applies now. They don't want to pass up a chance to sign guys like CP3, Deron, Dwight, Nash, etc. next summer by taking on any big longterm contracts right now. I think anyone who's been following this team for the past few years should already know this. I don't think the Knicks' management thinks that just by landing CP3 that they everything else will just fall into place. The Miami Heat showed this year that just having 3 superstars doesn't guarantee you a championship. The Knicks will still have to build a team around their 3 stars next summer even if they do land a big talent. The point is not to sacrifice their options next summer by taking on any big salary now, because there really isn't any worthwhile talent that the Knicks can realistically acquire with the trade chips they have to offer.
    +1.. Thank you!

  3. #63
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Do we have a 7'2" guy at PF who can grab ten rebounds a game and patrol the paint like the best of them? No? Wait, our PF sucks at defense entirely?

    Got it. The Celtics won because they had great defense and they had great defenders especially in the paint area. Gasol was able to do CRAP against them because Garnett shut his ass down and outplayed him in the series, grabbed more boards than he did, blocked more shots (lol at Pau blocking shots), and all in all owned him on both ends.

    If Amar'e could play the defense that Garnett could (Garnett, at his peak, is probably one of the best defensive PFs of ALL TIME) then we wouldn't be having this discussion about good Centers but that is NOT the case. Not even CLOSE.

    NO team is going to stroll its way to a championship unless it has DEFENSE and PAINT PRESENCE. As of right now we do not have EITHER of those things.
    Ummm.. last i checked KG was 6'11''. Yes, I believe I already established he was a legit great 2 way player. Your point.

    Amare does need to get better at rotating in a timely fashion consistently. Turiaf does this beautifully. We just need a couple more guys who can rebound and clog the middle.

    I really think Jorts can help in this area. JJ possibly too. Some other moderately priced C also.. Prysbilla, Foster maybe?? They can help no?

    And what's Amare and his 2 blocks per, chopped liver? Not saying he's KG defensively or anything but..

    Won't getting the best perimeter defender at his position help us greatly defensively? Can any of the let's get a big over Paul folk deny this??

    Paul has sure-fire 2 way greatness. We need that. Every team needs that.

    He wants to bring his game here and play w his boys, cut the heart out of Lebron and Co and bring a legit great team to MSG... Smh at anybody who can't embrace this.

  4. #64
    Member knicksman20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Pls, stop overlooking the obvious..
    You're overstating the obvious while not giving enough credit for their coaching, depth, size, & defense. Their defense was suffocating the year they won; anchored by their front court of KG, Perk, & PJ Brown.

  5. #65
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    You're overstating the obvious while not giving enough credit for their coaching, depth, size, & defense. Their defense was suffocating the year they won; anchored by their front court of KG, Perk, & PJ Brown.
    No, the three of those guys makes everything else possible; takes the pressure off of the role guys you're overemphasizing to just go out and do what they need to.

    Doc Rivers was average as hell before getting that core together. Having 3 guys like that makes everything easier dude. That's basketball fact. Acknowledge it!

  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    No, the three of those guys makes everything else possible; takes the pressure off of the role guys you're overemphasizing to just go out and do what they need to.

    Doc Rivers was average as hell before getting that core together. Having 3 guys like that makes everything easier dude. That's basketball fact. Acknowledge it!
    Boston's defense won them a championship, whether it was Doc or Thibs doesn't make a difference to me. Regardless, they were well coached on both sides of the floor which the Knicks aren't.

    You're so enamored by this "big 3" you're blinded by the obvious. We need size & depth to build around Melo & Amare. The "big 3" worked in Boston because of too many factors we don't have. Chris Paul does not address our needs & IMO it's an unrealistic thinking he will sign here.

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    I would take Doc and Frank in a heart beat compared to what we have sitting on our sidelines.

    Doc may not be a great coach, but he is a very good motivator, which is the element of the makings of a very good coach.

    Plus he knows to keep guys around him, to help be successful.

    Thibbs first, now Frank.

    But I will say now that we have two offensive weapons that are not premier defenders, they need to be surrounded by enforcers in the paint, as well as a high caliber distributor.

  8. #68
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    Boston's defense won them a championship, whether it was Doc or Thibs doesn't make a difference to me. Regardless, they were well coached on both sides of the floor which the Knicks aren't.

    You're so enamored by this "big 3" you're blinded by the obvious. We need size & depth to build around Melo & Amare. The "big 3" worked in Boston because of too many factors we don't have. Chris Paul does not address our needs & IMO it's an unrealistic thinking he will sign here.
    The last thing I am is blind, trust. I just have multiple, clear concepts of what it takes to win in the league. Most of yous only have one. Yes we will need to have role guys that can rebound and defend. I'm right there w you. BUT you have to have you're priorities in order. Greatness is always at the top.

    You get that core together first.

    And why would he not sign here when he wants to be here?? That's been established from what I can remember..

  9. #69
    Member knicksman20's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    The last thing I am is blind, trust. I just have multiple, clear concepts of what it takes to win in the league. Most of yous only have one. Yes we will need to have role guys that can rebound and defend. I'm right there w you. BUT you have to have you're priorities in order. Greatness is always at the top.

    You get that core together first.

    And why would he not sign here when he wants to be here?? That's been established from what I can remember..
    Peeps were saying the same thing about LBJ when he was a free agent & look what happened. As Knick fans I just want more of us to have realistic outlook on the situation.

  10. #70
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksman20
    Peeps were saying the same thing about LBJ when he was a free agent & look what happened. As Knick fans I just want more of us to have realistic outlook on the situation.
    Nah this was different. There was a different feel to this one. W Lebron I never quite felt like he was really going to come here. That toast Paul gave was a special event my dude. I believe his exact words were, "We'll form our own big three..". He was clear about his intentions and we are positioned to make them come to fruition.

    We're one step away from a 6 yr window of dominant contention. Hang tight..

    Peep this article. It's titled: Chris Paul Doesn't Regret 'Big Three' Toast At Melo's Wedding

    Nothing to crazy or telling but it does give one a feeling that he wouldn't mind teaming up w our two Allstars.



    NEW ORLEANS -- If the Knicks are to have the best chance at landing Chris Paul in 2012, they may want to consider keeping Mike D'Antoni around.

    Paul, who faces the Knicks tonight at New Orleans Arena for the first time since his infamous champagne toast at Carmelo Anthony's wedding in July, heaped unsolicited praise on the Knicks coach, saying he is "a huge fan."

    It may mean nothing. In 2012, it may mean everything. Paul becomes a free agent then. Knicks president Donnie Walsh purposely signed point guard Raymond Felton to only a two-year contract to make sure they have 2012 cap space for the Hornets' superstar point guard.

    Paul was asked innocently after Hornets' practice about tonight's Knicks game.

    "It's going to be a tough game," Paul said. "I'm a huge fan of Coach D'Antoni's, and he really has those guys going right now. And any time you have a personality like Amar'e [Stoudemire] on your team and Raymond running your show, you're going to be tough."

    Paul, as reported in The Post, gave a toast during Anthony's Manhattan wedding reception to one day forming a "our own big three" in New York with Stoudemire and Anthony. Yesterday, Paul was asked by The Post if he regrets the toast.

    "I don't regret anything during the summer," he said. "Everything that happens makes you stronger. Now I'm just happy to be on a great team that's playing really well."

    In Sports Illustrated last week, Paul downplayed the toast, saying, "We were there having a good time. You're joking around; all different types of stuff is said."

    Indeed, Paul is definitely a happy man -- for now. At least he's much happier than this past summer when he said if New Orleans isn't committed to winning, "I'm open to being traded."

    Last night, the Hornets staged their holiday party and Paul was more apt to toast the Big Easy than the Big Apple.

    "The summer is over," Paul said. "I'm just so happy it's the season now. We don't have to worry about [the speculation] anymore. It's all about the next game.

    "We're playing. We're in-season. I don't think about anything, but trying to stop Raymond Felton and Amar'e in that pick and roll [today]."

    Still, Paul keeps in touch with his buddy Stoudemire.

    "Every now and then we talk," Paul said. "Most definitely [he's happy]. Especially whenever you can reconnect with a coach like that, especially Coach D'Antoni.

    "I'm sure Amare's happy. Those guys are playing well. Amare's one of those guys who's going to play hard. That's what I love about him. He's just always going to compete and his game keeps getting better each year."

    Stoudemire will be around five years. D'Antoni's contract expires after the 2011-12 season. With the Knicks at 10-9 -- first time over .500 this late in the season since 2004-05 -- D'Antoni could be offered a contract extension before the season is up if they continue winning.

    As much as Paul is a big fan of D'Antoni, having played under him on the 2008 Olympic gold-medal-winning team, he's also a big fan of Hornets rookie coach Monty Williams.

    New Orleans got off to its best start in franchise history with an 11-1 mark. The Hornets have dipped since to 13-5, but there's no chance they will trade Paul this season.

    Knicks fans may want to root for the Hornets to flounder. The Hornets' attendance still is, ranked 25th in the NBA after drawing 10,866 Wednesday -- their lowest since 2008.

    Team owner George Shinn is still trying to complete a sale.

    "Even when we were 9-0, we kept saying if it was football season, it would look really good, but 82 games, 9-0 is nothing," Paul said.

    Williams, a former Knicks first-round pick, and Paul have hit it off. Paul has adapted to Williams' San Antonio-style system after the Hornets' old Princeton offense initially installed by Byron Scott was scrapped.

    "If he's changed, he's involving guys more and managing games better than he did in the past," Williams said. "He bought into my ideas. I've meshed mine with his. I think we make a fairly good team. We're building trust. He's a once in a lifetime point guard and I don't want to mess with it."

    The Hornets' new team president, Dell Demps has made Paul believe in the franchise's diligence to make moves to win.

    Demps, a former Knicks personnel director, traded for Trevor Ariza in the offseason and the Hornets' defense has improve. Ariza is the lockdown defender on the opponents' best player. Last month, Demps traded for Knicks-killing point guard Jarrett Jack to be Paul's backup.

    And for now, Paul declines to elaborate on his 2012 future or Anthony's.

    "I ain't talking about that," Paul said. "I have no clue. All I can do is worry about Chris Paul's future and right now my future is to shower and pick up my son from school."


    He seems to really like D'ant. Hmmm..
    Last edited by ronoranina; Jul 19, 2011 at 22:22.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Ummm.. last i checked KG was 6'11''. Yes, I believe I already established he was a legit great 2 way player. Your point.

    Amare does need to get better at rotating in a timely fashion consistently. Turiaf does this beautifully. We just need a couple more guys who can rebound and clog the middle.

    I really think Jorts can help in this area. JJ possibly too. Some other moderately priced C also.. Prysbilla, Foster maybe?? They can help no?

    And what's Amare and his 2 blocks per, chopped liver? Not saying he's KG defensively or anything but..

    Won't getting the best perimeter defender at his position help us greatly defensively? Can any of the let's get a big over Paul folk deny this??

    Paul has sure-fire 2 way greatness. We need that. Every team needs that.

    He wants to bring his game here and play w his boys, cut the heart out of Lebron and Co and bring a legit great team to MSG... Smh at anybody who can't embrace this.
    Garnett is 7 feet tall. He's worked to get himself listed at under 7' for his entire career so that he doesn't have to play C. The Timberwolves listed Garnet as 7'1" in shoes during the 1997 season when they actually measured his height.

    That being said we need good defense in the center. If there's no MLE how do you think we will get a player like Jeff Foster? It all depends on the CBA. If the CBA has a hard cap of like 75 million then we could easily sign a third max AND pick up a good center. But if the CBA comes in at what it is now and the MLE is eliminated then it's going to be much tougher for the Knicks to pick up a good center.

  12. #72
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    I'm kind of tired at the moment. Didn't sleep well. So...I didn't read all the new posts today, I'll try soon.

    I think both of sides (including me) are focusing too much at the PG and C position.

    On my side, yes, the amount of centers out there are slim.

    On the max PG side, that's not filling a need, that's just improving the position. I don't think we should spend money on a max PG just because we can't get a center. We need a back-up PG too. T-Mac and Anthony Carter would be perfect along with Billups.

    Why is it that we should go after Paul if we get get a few guys with that money around two superstars? I think that people who want Chris Paul is admitting we have to assault teams on offense because of what our two superstars have shown on defense. If you say we can get any center available otherwise with the MLE, then I think that defeats the point of the argument that there is no centers available. And if we did get Dalembert or something, then we should spend the rest of the money on a SG and a another defender or two (Chuck Hayes).

    Dalembert never said he's gonna accept the MLE either. If we can't get him or whatever, let's spend the money on other positions.

    AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH BILLUPS? You people just want to say he's injury prone because you're head is in fantasy land about the beauty of a Chris Paul run offense when offense isn't our deplorable side of the court, at least talent wise.

    Billups isn't injury prone, you want him to be. Why don't you hide in the shadows and try to tackle his legs so you can get Chris Paul.
    Last edited by RunningJumper; Jul 19, 2011 at 23:04.

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    Really the thing is we need to have players buy in to a defensive system and actually concentrate on playing defense.

    I don't recall Paul Pierce or Ray Allen being great defenders earlier on in their careers but they played well in a good defensive system because there was buy-in and a good coaching staff. That's what we need - guys who will try to get Amar'e and Carmelo to use their physical tools to play defense. Carmelo and Amar'e are two of the league's most athletic players, and they have ridiculous length, reach, and strength. Seeing them fail on defense is just sad.

  14. #74
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Garnett is 7 feet tall. He's worked to get himself listed at under 7' for his entire career so that he doesn't have to play C. The Timberwolves listed Garnet as 7'1" in shoes during the 1997 season when they actually measured his height.

    That being said we need good defense in the center. If there's no MLE how do you think we will get a player like Jeff Foster? It all depends on the CBA. If the CBA has a hard cap of like 75 million then we could easily sign a third max AND pick up a good center. But if the CBA comes in at what it is now and the MLE is eliminated then it's going to be much tougher for the Knicks to pick up a good center.
    SSSJ.. your a good poster and I like what you bring to the forum, but I trust bball reference more than I trust you.

    First you said he was 7'2'' now he's 7'. Which is it brah?

    He's 6'11'' dude. Pau I think is over 7' and he looks it. He definitely looks taller than KG.

    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    I'm kind of tired at the moment. Didn't sleep well. So...I didn't read all the new posts today, I'll try soon.

    I think both of sides (including me) are focusing too much at the PG and C position.

    On my side, yes, the amount of centers out there are slim.

    On the max PG side, that's not filling a need, that's just improving the position. I don't think we should spend money on a max PG just because we can't get a center.

    Why is it that we should go after Paul if we get get a few guys with that money around two superstars? I think that people who want Chris Paul is admitting we have to assault teams on offense because of what out two superstars have shown on defense. If you say we can get any center available otherwise with the MLE, then I think that defeats the point of the argument that there is no centers available. And if we did get Dalembert or something, then we should spend the rest of the money on a SG and a another defender or two (Chuck Hayes).

    Dalembert never said he's gonna accept the MLE either. If we can't get him or whatever, let's spend the money on other positions.

    AND WHAT IS WRONG WITH BILLUPS? You people just want to say he's injury prone because you're head is in fantasy land about the beauty of a Chris Paul run offense when offense isn't our deplorable side of the court, at least talent wise.

    Billups isn't injury prone, you want him to be. Why don't you hide in the shadows and try to tackle his legs so you can get Chris Paul.
    Lol... Sir pls allow a bit more of the rust to shake free upon waking before you try to make a long-winded post like this. Reads like a either a 90 yr old man or 7 yr old wrote it..


  15. #75
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    SSSJ.. your a good poster and I like what you bring to the forum, but I trust bball reference more than I trust you.

    First you said he was 7'2'' now he's 7'. Which is it brah?

    He's 6'11'' dude. Pau I think is over 7' and he looks it. He definitely looks taller than KG.



    Lol... Sir pls allow a bit more of the rust to shake free upon waking before you try to make a long-winded post like this. Sounds like a either a 90 yr old man or 7 yr old wrote it..

    Trying to kick my cane while I'm down are ya

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