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Thread: Sports Illustrated top 100 players................

  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by NYKnicks11
    And this somehow makes up for the rest of the time when Melo is loafing around on defense? Durant is clearly a better defensive player overall, and he is more efficient at putting the ball into the basket. That's why he's ranked higher on that list, and why I feel he's a better player than Melo. They are basically high volume scorers who can't pass or defend at an elite level, just Durant is a better at those aspects. And Melo shut down LeBron? He went 10/20 from the field, but did have 5 TO's. But that isn't "shutting him down".

    I agree he's not better "right now", but what about Blake's much better passing and rebounding already? Even with a less versatile offensive game, he was as efficient as Amare at scoring and was only a rookie last year. I'm sure he will definitely add a more reliable jumpshot and post game in the coming years. And Blake did improve his FT shooting post All-Star break to 69%, so it's not like he's Shaq from the line and can't improve.

    EDIT: Melo's Synergy numbers last year:
    Carmelo
    Overall 100% 1.06 457
    Isolation 20.7% 0.89 228
    P&R Ball Handler 15.6% 0.88 159
    Post-Up 10.9% 1.14 289
    P&R Roll Man 2.7% 1.29 -
    Spot-Up 35.9% 1.11 321

    He got even worse from the year before.
    Melo shut down LeBron in that game when it mattered in the 4th quarter. He might not have held him to Finals LeBron-esque numbers, but holding LeBron to under 30 points in the regular season is generally a pretty good night. Anybody who watched that game will be able to recall that Carmelo's defense against LeBron is what saved the Knicks in that game.

    Obviously Carmelo's defense last year was not good - the Knicks, as a whole, are a bad defensive team, so Carmelo's defense is likewise going to suck until someone finds him a better defensive coach to help him out.

    Blake's "much better" passing? He averages ONE more assist per game than Amar'e while having a good scorer like Eric Gordon to pass to. Who the hell was Amar'e passing to in the first half?

    Furthermore it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to compare statistics across the board in basketball. Different systems lead to different styles of play which lead to different statistics showing up on the statsheet. It's not like baseball where every hitter gets an equal number of opportunities at the plate and thus we can compare them based on what they do at the plate. In basketball we have different systems and different styles of play - just because one PF averages fewer assists than another doesn't necessarily mean he's a crappier passer -it could just mean that the coach's system doesn't call for said PF to be dishing the ball out, instead putting the ball in the hands of a dominant ball-handling PG like Felton was doing in D'Antoni's system. Because assists are a bulk statistic and not a percentage statistic, they can be misleading when it comes to certain things (i.e. pace factor, amongst others).

    Especially in this case when they're off by barely an assist per game. An assist per game is hardly statistically significant after one takes into account deviation from the mean, different systems, different styles of play, and so on. It could just as easily mean that Blake gets more assists because he can't hit the jumper from 18 feet whereas Amar'e sinks those so he doesn't need to pass in that situation.

  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Melo shut down LeBron in that game when it mattered in the 4th quarter. He might not have held him to Finals LeBron-esque numbers, but holding LeBron to under 30 points in the regular season is generally a pretty good night. Anybody who watched that game will be able to recall that Carmelo's defense against LeBron is what saved the Knicks in that game.

    Obviously Carmelo's defense last year was not good - the Knicks, as a whole, are a bad defensive team, so Carmelo's defense is likewise going to suck until someone finds him a better defensive coach to help him out.
    I think it also depends on Melo. HE needs to make the commitment to defense. A coach can help to give him tips and pointers on how to play better, but it's up to him to put in the effort on D that he puts in on O. If he does that, he is easily a top 5 player. Probably top 3.

    Blake's "much better" passing? He averages ONE more assist per game than Amar'e while having a good scorer like Eric Gordon to pass to. Who the hell was Amar'e passing to in the first half?
    Well Amare had Gallo, 50%+ from three Shawne Williams, Felton, Douglas, Chandler, Walker, Fields etc all camping out on the three point line, so those are some pretty good options for guys to pass it to in the first half of the season. Especially if they are in the corner, which is the best three to take. So just because he didn't have a player as good as Eric Gordon doesn't mean he didn't have three point shooters he could pass it to when the defense collapsed on him. Too often he would try to force it and take a tough shot, get fouled (positive play), or turn it over.

    And Blake had 40 games with at least 4 assists. Amare had 23. Amare's high was 7 assists, which he did twice. Blake did that 6 times, and also had three games with 8 assists, one with 9 and two with 10. Hell Amare's CAREER high is 8 assists, which Blake beat three times in one season. And compared to other PFs playing 30+ minutes, he was only beat out of Boris Diaw last year in assists.

    Blake had more assists in his first season than Amare has ever had in his career. Last year Amare's USG% was 30.9 compared to Blake's 27.3, yet still had fewer assists.

    Furthermore it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to compare statistics across the board in basketball. Different systems lead to different styles of play which lead to different statistics showing up on the statsheet. It's not like baseball where every hitter gets an equal number of opportunities at the plate and thus we can compare them based on what they do at the plate. In basketball we have different systems and different styles of play - just because one PF averages fewer assists than another doesn't necessarily mean he's a crappier passer -it could just mean that the coach's system doesn't call for said PF to be dishing the ball out, instead putting the ball in the hands of a dominant ball-handling PG like Felton was doing in D'Antoni's system. Because assists are a bulk statistic and not a percentage statistic, they can be misleading when it comes to certain things (i.e. pace factor, amongst others).
    This is true, but Amare did play at a faster pace and use more possessions than Blake too. But offensive systems can affect their numbers, I definitely agree with that.

  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by NYKnicks11
    I think it also depends on Melo. HE needs to make the commitment to defense. A coach can help to give him tips and pointers on how to play better, but it's up to him to put in the effort on D that he puts in on O. If he does that, he is easily a top 5 player. Probably top 3.
    Agreed. It's frustrating to see him play great defense against LeBron and yet get torched by a benchwarmer.

    Well Amare had Gallo, 50%+ from three Shawne Williams, Felton, Douglas, Chandler, Walker, Fields etc all camping out on the three point line, so those are some pretty good options for guys to pass it to in the first half of the season. Especially if they are in the corner, which is the best three to take. So just because he didn't have a player as good as Eric Gordon doesn't mean he didn't have three point shooters he could pass it to when the defense collapsed on him. Too often he would try to force it and take a tough shot, get fouled (positive play), or turn it over.

    And Blake had 40 games with at least 4 assists. Amare had 23. Amare's high was 7 assists, which he did twice. Blake did that 6 times, and also had three games with 8 assists, one with 9 and two with 10. Hell Amare's CAREER high is 8 assists, which Blake beat three times in one season. And compared to other PFs playing 30+ minutes, he was only beat out of Boris Diaw last year in assists.

    Blake had more assists in his first season than Amare has ever had in his career. Last year Amare's USG% was 30.9 compared to Blake's 27.3, yet still had fewer assists.
    The reason Amar'e doesn't get assists could be just as easily likened to the fact that he's a much better mid-range jumpshooter than Blake Griffin. Whereas Griffin would have a tough time hitting the shot from 15-18 feet and would have to pass it to Eric Gordon or Baron Davis, Amar'e can just take the shot himself. It's probably why he has more FGA than Blake but fewer assists, because many of the plays that Griffin passes it out on are plays where Amar'e goes for the mid-range shot (and more often than not makes a great one).

    This is true, but Amare did play at a faster pace and use more possessions than Blake too. But offensive systems can affect their numbers, I definitely agree with that.
    If anything, I'm more concerned about Amare's A/TO ratio than I am about how many assists he gets. It's fine if he doesn't pass the ball, but his higher number of turnovers means that he's forcing up shots and losing the ball when he could be passing it instead (and any Knicks fan knows that Amar'e has a tendency to force way too many shots sometimes).

    If Carmelo and Amar'e work on their shot selection and defense, the Knicks would be the best team in the league if they pick up a decent center.

  4. #34
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Agreed. It's frustrating to see him play great defense against LeBron and yet get torched by a benchwarmer.



    The reason Amar'e doesn't get assists could be just as easily likened to the fact that he's a much better mid-range jumpshooter than Blake Griffin. Whereas Griffin would have a tough time hitting the shot from 15-18 feet and would have to pass it to Eric Gordon or Baron Davis, Amar'e can just take the shot himself. It's probably why he has more FGA than Blake but fewer assists, because many of the plays that Griffin passes it out on are plays where Amar'e goes for the mid-range shot (and more often than not makes a great one).



    If anything, I'm more concerned about Amare's A/TO ratio than I am about how many assists he gets. It's fine if he doesn't pass the ball, but his higher number of turnovers means that he's forcing up shots and losing the ball when he could be passing it instead (and any Knicks fan knows that Amar'e has a tendency to force way too many shots sometimes).

    If Carmelo and Amar'e work on their shot selection and defense, the Knicks would be the best team in the league if they pick up a decent center.
    I agree with everything you said.

  5. #35
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    Gotta love list! they always cause controversy I mean i know people who dont have jayz in their top 10 so peoples opinions whether "fact" or stat based are always going to vary. As far as Amare goes part of his turnover problem was the lack of a good facilitator but his jump shot has improved so much it wouldnt bother me if he shot some 3's. The physical build of Amare and melo and their dedication to the game tells me they both have the ability to be elite defenders if they focus. Dantonis wild west shoot whenever you like system will always detract from the defense and the defensive tendecies of his players. With a new coach or Defensive coach Amare n Melo have the potential to be far greater all around. Thats what kills me about Melo you see all the talent in the world but you dont see all the effort, if Melo put in work like Lebron he would far surpass him

  6. #36
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    that list sucks, why do they have Brandon Roy at 100??

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    Probably cause he got injured AGAIN.

    We all know that Brandon Roy when talented is a top SG in the game but his injury history has not been friendly to him. I'm wondering if in 10 years we'll be talking about him like we talk about Tracy McGrady.

  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Probably cause he got injured AGAIN.

    We all know that Brandon Roy when talented is a top SG in the game but his injury history has not been friendly to him. I'm wondering if in 10 years we'll be talking about him like we talk about Tracy McGrady.
    Its a shame too, if it weren't for injuries Portland would be championship contenders imo.

  9. #39
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    Once I saw last season's mvp at number 9 I didn't take the list seriously. Derrick Rose should at best top 3. Whoever made the list didn't put much thought into making the list.

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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    Its a shame too, if it weren't for injuries Portland would be championship contenders imo.
    Yeah...it's really tragic because I honestly think if Roy hadn't gotten hurt we'd be talking about him being an MVP contender and mentioning him in the same sentence as Melo/etc.

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