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Thread: Sports Illustrated top 100 players................

  1. #16
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Seems more like a popularity contest. I'm still waiting for people to realize that Monta Ellis scored .9 less points per game than Rose, shooting .6% higher from the field and .3% higher from 3 point range. While also averaging 2.1 steals vs Rose's 1.0. The only large statistical margin that Rose has is in FT% where he was at 85% and Monta at 78%. I mean....Rose averaged 7.7 assists as the PG, and Monta averaged 5.6 as a time share between PG and 2. Several times he hit double digit assists with Steph on the court. I don't think 2.1 assists diff between PG and non-PG is enough to quantify why they're so far apart on that list.

    But Rose is #9 and Monta is #44? And don't even talk about wins, because Deron is #7 and Blake is #14.

    If the game of basketball is a statistical game to this dude, how are those guys 35 spots apart?

    Plus: Monta's 5.6 assists was the third highest among non-PGs behind LBJ and Iggy. But even Iggy is sitting at 30 and Monta is 40 ****ing 4th?

    Funny.

  2. #17
    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    How is Nash a better defender than Melo? And if Durant is top 10 then why isn't Melo? Durant and Melo are pretty much the same defensively imo.

  3. #18
    Veteran StEpHoN_mArBuRy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    How is Nash a better defender than Melo? And if Durant is top 10 then why isn't Melo? Durant and Melo are pretty much the same defensively imo.
    Exactly! This is almost like going in order of whose on a better team. Which in that case its more of a team award more than a whose the best of the best IMO. There's some pretty average and sub par defenders ahead of Melo and Amare on this list. We already know what those 2 can do on offense so I won't even stress that..

  4. #19
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Cool

    The author is clearly a NY biased dickhead.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Aug 17, 2011 at 16:05.

  5. #20
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    Seems more like a popularity contest. I'm still waiting for people to realize that Monta Ellis scored .9 less points per game than Rose, shooting .6% higher from the field and .3% higher from 3 point range. While also averaging 2.1 steals vs Rose's 1.0. The only large statistical margin that Rose has is in FT% where he was at 85% and Monta at 78%. I mean....Rose averaged 7.7 assists as the PG, and Monta averaged 5.6 as a time share between PG and 2. Several times he hit double digit assists with Steph on the court. I don't think 2.1 assists diff between PG and non-PG is enough to quantify why they're so far apart on that list.

    But Rose is #9 and Monta is #44? And don't even talk about wins, because Deron is #7 and Blake is #14.

    If the game of basketball is a statistical game to this dude, how are those guys 35 spots apart?

    Plus: Monta's 5.6 assists was the third highest among non-PGs behind LBJ and Iggy. But even Iggy is sitting at 30 and Monta is 40 ****ing 4th?

    Funny.
    Good point. I do agree that after the top 10 its subjective to say the least, but the difference between Rose and Ellis (from a pure statistical standpoint)
    is NOT a 35 spot difference.

  6. #21
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    If you're going to penalize Melo and Amar'e for being bad on defense, then why in the world are Durant and Griffin up there? Durant is terrible on defense, and Griffin is not only terrible on defense but a God-awful free throw shooter. How do they deserve to be that many spots above Melo and Amar'e? Amar'e and Griffin are both awful on defense, but Amar'e is a better FT shooter and Griffin a better rebounder, so they're about even. Melo is a more versatile scorer than Durant, other than that they're both similar in the sense that they're high volume scorers who aren't great defenders, the difference that Melo can actually play defense when he tries whereas Durant is a weak ****.

  7. #22
    Veteran StEpHoN_mArBuRy's Avatar
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    ^^Rose is **** on defense too. He has a great supporting cast to mask those deficiencies tho..

  8. #23
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Finally an article telling the truth about Nash's defense. He's not bad. Him saying he watched a ton of games last season wasn't a lie, he actually watched him.

    Every freaking team has an "elite" PG these days. To me, Nash, Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose are the ones that are truly at the top of the list.

    Of course there's gonna be rankings we don't agree with. This is actually a good list, whether I agree with some spots or not. He didn't make a list of what people WANTED to see.

  9. #24
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    Finally an article telling the truth about Nash's defense. He's not bad. Him saying he watched a ton of games last season wasn't a lie, he actually watched him.

    Every freaking team has an "elite" PG these days. To me, Nash, Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose are the ones that are truly at the top of the list.

    Of course there's gonna be rankings we don't agree with. This is actually a good list, whether I agree with some spots or not. He didn't make a list of what people WANTED to see.
    Still doesn't explain why Monta is #44 and Rose is #9 when their numbers are more similar than people might think. That has nothing to do with the numbers, as this guy claimed his list is based on.

    Just come out and say it's a subjective list and don't swear by the numbers, and then have Deron Williams as the 7th best two-way player in the league.

  10. #25
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    Still doesn't explain why Monta is #44 and Rose is #9 when their numbers are more similar than people might think. That has nothing to do with the numbers, as this guy claimed his list is based on.

    Just come out and say it's a subjective list and don't swear by the numbers, and then have Deron Williams as the 7th best two-way player in the league.
    Didn't look at the whole list.

    Yeah, they're not THAT far apart. I'm a fan of Monta. He's efficient and is a good and willing passer.

    As I said, there's some things I don't agree with/get, but it's not a HORRIBLE list.

  11. #26
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    Lol....Nick Collison made the list but Brandon Jennings didn't...

  12. #27
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    If you're going to penalize Melo and Amar'e for being bad on defense, then why in the world are Durant and Griffin up there? Durant is terrible on defense, and Griffin is not only terrible on defense but a God-awful free throw shooter. How do they deserve to be that many spots above Melo and Amar'e? Amar'e and Griffin are both awful on defense, but Amar'e is a better FT shooter and Griffin a better rebounder, so they're about even. Melo is a more versatile scorer than Durant, other than that they're both similar in the sense that they're high volume scorers who aren't great defenders, the difference that Melo can actually play defense when he tries whereas Durant is a weak ****.
    1. Because Durant is much better than Melo on defense. Really, every metric has Melo being awful on defense, while Durant is at least somewhat neutral on D if not above average at times. The Knicks were better on defense before Melo joined the team. And Durant is slightly more efficient based on eFG% and TS%, so coupling those together makes him ranked higher. Melo let his opposing SF shoot 53% eFG% against him, Durant's was at 48%. Melo really is a lazy defender, who CAN be a good one if he puts in the work. But that's an IF right now. I found their Synergy stats from 2 seasons ago, and Durant basically kills him in everything:

    Kevin Durant
    100% Overall: 0.82 PPP (44th)
    21.2% Isolation: 0.73 PPP (51st)
    12.7% P/R Ball: 0.58 PPP (4th)
    6.5% Post-Up: 0.79 PPP (71st)
    1.7% P/R Roll: 0.67 PPP (N/A)
    36.0% Spot-Up: 0.95 PPP (155th)
    8.8% Off-Screen: 0.89 PPP (65th)
    5.1% Hand-Off: 0.57 PPP (9th)

    Carmelo Anthony
    100% Overall: 0.95 PPP (318th)
    20.5% Isolation: 1.03 PPP (305th)
    8.1% P/R Ball: 0.70 PPP (23rd)
    11.2% Post-Up: 0.98 PPP (235th)
    1.5% P/R Roll: 0.82 PPP (N/A)
    40.2% Spot-Up: 1.01 PPP (231st)
    10.0% Off-Screen: 0.89 PPP (99th)
    4.0% Hand-Off: 0.87 PPP (47th)

    I'm trying to find last season's, but I'm having trouble right now.

    But basically Durant is more efficient scoring, and a better defender. And he's still only 22 so he has some potential to add to his game.

    2. Griffin seems to be given a pass somewhat because he was a rookie and was "still learning" NBA defense and I would put Amare over him right now. However Blake has already shown to be a much much better rebounder and passer than Amare while scoring at a similar efficiency from the floor. And he turns it over less often than Amare. So I feel like he put him higher because Griffin will likely be a better player in 2+ years.

  13. #28
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    No **** the Knicks were better on defense before Melo joined because he joined a team mid-season in a system he was unfamiliar with so obviously the team wasn't going to be great right off the bat.

    It's already obvious that Duratn tries harder on defense than Melo (hell, everybody in the league tries harder on defense than Melo) but Melo demonstrated his ability to be a lockdown man defender by shutting down LeBron James when they played the Heat. I've yet to see Durant display that type of ability.

    2. Again, what about Griffin's piss-poor free throw shooting? He turns the ball over less than Amar'e does but he blocks fewer shots, has a much less versatile offensive game, and can't shoot free throws. I'm not going to say he's better than Amar'e yet...

  14. #29
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    No **** the Knicks were better on defense before Melo joined because he joined a team mid-season in a system he was unfamiliar with so obviously the team wasn't going to be great right off the bat.

    It's already obvious that Duratn tries harder on defense than Melo (hell, everybody in the league tries harder on defense than Melo) but Melo demonstrated his ability to be a lockdown man defender by shutting down LeBron James when they played the Heat. I've yet to see Durant display that type of ability.

    2. Again, what about Griffin's piss-poor free throw shooting? He turns the ball over less than Amar'e does but he blocks fewer shots, has a much less versatile offensive game, and can't shoot free throws. I'm not going to say he's better than Amar'e yet...
    He did improve his free throw shooting. He's not terrible.

  15. #30
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    It's already obvious that Duratn tries harder on defense than Melo (hell, everybody in the league tries harder on defense than Melo) but Melo demonstrated his ability to be a lockdown man defender by shutting down LeBron James when they played the Heat. I've yet to see Durant display that type of ability.
    And this somehow makes up for the rest of the time when Melo is loafing around on defense? Durant is clearly a better defensive player overall, and he is more efficient at putting the ball into the basket. That's why he's ranked higher on that list, and why I feel he's a better player than Melo. They are basically high volume scorers who can't pass or defend at an elite level, just Durant is a better at those aspects. And Melo shut down LeBron? He went 10/20 from the field, but did have 5 TO's. But that isn't "shutting him down".

    2. Again, what about Griffin's piss-poor free throw shooting? He turns the ball over less than Amar'e does but he blocks fewer shots, has a much less versatile offensive game, and can't shoot free throws. I'm not going to say he's better than Amar'e yet...
    I agree he's not better "right now", but what about Blake's much better passing and rebounding already? Even with a less versatile offensive game, he was as efficient as Amare at scoring and was only a rookie last year. I'm sure he will definitely add a more reliable jumpshot and post game in the coming years. And Blake did improve his FT shooting post All-Star break to 69%, so it's not like he's Shaq from the line and can't improve.

    EDIT: Melo's Synergy numbers last year:
    Carmelo
    Overall 100% 1.06 457
    Isolation 20.7% 0.89 228
    P&R Ball Handler 15.6% 0.88 159
    Post-Up 10.9% 1.14 289
    P&R Roll Man 2.7% 1.29 -
    Spot-Up 35.9% 1.11 321

    He got even worse from the year before.
    Last edited by NYKnicks11; Aug 18, 2011 at 00:06.

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