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Thread: Offensive Wish List: What You'd Like To See In Our Half Court

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Nyk Logo Offensive Wish List: What You'd Like To See In Our Half Court


    Am I the only one that has as many qualms with our offence as our defence?

    Last season, pre and post Melo trade, I denounced D'Antoni's offence for its predictability and lack of creativity. Though there were often flashes of real continuity with both (pre/post trade) teams, we always lulled back in to the same monotonous isolation and spacing sets, never seeming to reach the pinnacle of our ability with any form of consistency.

    For those who don't recall:

    -Shawne Williams' motionless waiting in the corner for a motion assist to shoot the 3. As the PF nonetheless.

    -Melo's post game - I think Melo is a top 5 post player - receding constantly once MD got a grip on his role.

    -STAT & Melo's 2 man game being basically non existent. In our demolition of the Jazz after the Melo trade, there were 3 instances in which the 2 P&R'ed and had a perimeter hand off - STAT to Melo - it wasn't reenforced or built upon afterward.

    -Field's having little to no plays called for him to cut from the arc - something I believe could have been a real threat when incorporated with Melo's post game - after the trade, either via a hand off or screen. It was an occasional go to pre trade.

    -STAT'S POST GAME! - I don't expect a Tim Duncan like approach to it, but just a motion play to catch 2009-2010's (w/ PHO) most prolific paint scorer in the paint to 'elevate and detonate' on opponents. Too much to ask? No! it ****ing isn't! *waits for the recycled BS line of 'but Amar'e's not a post player' ~ **** off.

    -TD's 'just shoot and don't penetrate' role.

    -The disappearance of the P&R after the Melo trade.

    To name but a few.

    And, just for the sake of elaboration, last year, Amar'e successfully caught, and finished, - according to my calculations - less than 20 alley-oop dunks - I counted 14 - yes, I was counting. And the vast majority of those were in transition; a facet of our offence handicapped by our sh!t defence. What does that say to you? One of the most athletically blessed bigs in league history with hardly an inkling of interior offensive presence bar what he creates from the 45?. Is he really that much less capable than players such as D12, ZBo, Aldridge, Dirk and so on that he can't emulate some of their deep catch scoring?

    re alley-oops, that is a personal observation that I made - could be wrong, but only by a very small margin.

    Believe me, I could go on.



    "ISOooooooooooo!!!!"

    WHAT I WANT TO SEE FROM OUR OFFENCE THIS YEAR:

    - A post presence for our stars. Would open a whole new offence for us. Space, ISO and chuck, is old news. Think of the potential.

    - Back screens for Amar'e. Amar'e under the rim is any opponent's nightmare. Get him off the 45 more often and make it easy/force him to get inside and create scoring, put back, 3 point and foul shooting opportunities. He is too explosive and quick off his feet to prolong this offensive ignorance any longer.

    - Decoy offence. Creating opportunities for Williams, Shumpert, Douglas and Fields by enticing defences toward our primary scorers. Much like the Kansas 02 offence that requires the 3 and 4 to remain on the left side of the key.

    You can see the drawn up play below in diagram C.


    Although I could continue, I'll leave it there, and allow others to elaborate.

    To D'antoni, we can't continue to elude to the fact that we don't have 'your brand of player'. This is no longer about what you don't have offensively. This is about what you can do, with what's in front of you. Next season. Drop the equations and make plays happen that exploit the talents of your players.

    *Please refrain from highlighting the fact that the picture at the top of the thread is rather penile. Thank you.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Did you purposely make that look like two dicks pointing to a hole? Knowing Crazy, you did!

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    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    We had SEVERAL players the last three seasons who could slash and D'Antoni just told them to let the threes fly.

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    Veteran StEpHoN_mArBuRy's Avatar
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    Less of this that's for sure.. :




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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Did you purposely make that look like two dicks pointing to a hole? Knowing Crazy, you did!
    The subliminal gayness pouring out of me there. Sorry, Dad.

    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    We had SEVERAL players the last three seasons who could slash and D'Antoni just told them to let the threes fly.
    Wilson Chandler being the epitome of this statement. Melo, on the other hand, came in post trade and shot high % from the arc. Never mind Toney Douglas, who led the league in 3s made after the ASG break.

    In the end, even the positives added to the negatives, as our offence became as predictable as drunk cheerleaders.

    Originally Posted by StEpHoN_mArBuRy
    Less of this that's for sure.. :





    Wish I'd have found those photos instead of the upcoming DP image.

    Does anyone care to elaborate on our iffy offence?

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    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    With the combination of Melo and MDA, I don't know what to expect. It is just not a good fit as far as personnel and coaching philosophy are concerned. I also do not share some board members' lack of enthusiasm for the three ball. Look what Dallas did with "live by the three die by the three". It's just a matter of who is shooting and whether you can grab offensive boards.
    Last edited by pat; Sep 08, 2011 at 10:16.

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    Veteran StEpHoN_mArBuRy's Avatar
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    ^When you don't have the personnel to consistently shoot 3s at a high percentage like Dallas that it's a terribly flawed gameplan don't you agree?

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    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StEpHoN_mArBuRy
    ^When you don't have the personnel to consistently shoot 3s at a high percentage like Dallas that it's a terribly flawed gameplan don't you agree?
    Absolutely. However, that can be changed. But all in all, I am not sure what to expect. Coaching staff and players (especially Billups and Melo) do not match well. I still find the idea of a modern, dynamic offense more intriguing than running isos. I just don't see that happening with Melo in the game.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    Wish I'd have found those photos instead of the upcoming DP image.
    I just spit my apple out.

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s

    Am I the only one that has as many qualms with our offence as our defence?

    Last season, pre and post Melo trade, I denounced D'Antoni's offence for its predictability and lack of creativity. Though there were often flashes of real continuity with both (pre/post trade) teams, we always lulled back in to the same monotonous isolation and spacing sets, never seeming to reach the pinnacle of our ability with any form of consistency.

    For those who don't recall:

    -Shawne Williams' motionless waiting in the corner for a motion assist to shoot the 3. As the PF nonetheless.

    -Melo's post game - I think Melo is a top 5 post player - receding constantly once MD got a grip on his role.

    -STAT & Melo's 2 man game being basically non existent. In our demolition of the Jazz after the Melo trade, there were 3 instances in which the 2 P&R'ed and had a perimeter hand off - STAT to Melo - it wasn't reenforced or built upon afterward.

    -Field's having little to no plays called for him to cut from the arc - something I believe could have been a real threat when incorporated with Melo's post game - after the trade, either via a hand off or screen. It was an occasional go to pre trade.

    -STAT'S POST GAME! - I don't expect a Tim Duncan like approach to it, but just a motion play to catch 2009-2010's (w/ PHO) most prolific paint scorer in the paint to 'elevate and detonate' on opponents. Too much to ask? No! it ****ing isn't! *waits for the recycled BS line of 'but Amar'e's not a post player' ~ **** off.

    -TD's 'just shoot and don't penetrate' role.

    -The disappearance of the P&R after the Melo trade.

    To name but a few.

    And, just for the sake of elaboration, last year, Amar'e successfully caught, and finished, - according to my calculations - less than 20 alley-oop dunks - I counted 14 - yes, I was counting. And the vast majority of those were in transition; a facet of our offence handicapped by our sh!t defence. What does that say to you? One of the most athletically blessed bigs in league history with hardly an inkling of interior offensive presence bar what he creates from the 45?. Is he really that much less capable than players such as D12, ZBo, Aldridge, Dirk and so on that he can't emulate some of their deep catch scoring?

    re alley-oops, that is a personal observation that I made - could be wrong, but only by a very small margin.

    Believe me, I could go on.



    "ISOooooooooooo!!!!"

    WHAT I WANT TO SEE FROM OUR OFFENCE THIS YEAR:

    - A post presence for our stars. Would open a whole new offence for us. Space, ISO and chuck, is old news. Think of the potential.

    - Back screens for Amar'e. Amar'e under the rim is any opponent's nightmare. Get him off the 45 more often and make it easy/force him to get inside and create scoring, put back, 3 point and foul shooting opportunities. He is too explosive and quick off his feet to prolong this offensive ignorance any longer.

    - Decoy offence. Creating opportunities for Williams, Shumpert, Douglas and Fields by enticing defences toward our primary scorers. Much like the Kansas 02 offence that requires the 3 and 4 to remain on the left side of the key.

    You can see the drawn up play below in diagram C.


    Although I could continue, I'll leave it there, and allow others to elaborate.

    To D'antoni, we can't continue to elude to the fact that we don't have 'your brand of player'. This is no longer about what you don't have offensively. This is about what you can do, with what's in front of you. Next season. Drop the equations and make plays happen that exploit the talents of your players.

    *Please refrain from highlighting the fact that the picture at the top of the thread is rather penile. Thank you.
    I think your trepidation with MOA and our offense stems from a few factors and the main one being limited time- something I would normally call an excuse. But when analyzing what we saw that seems like the main issue.

    The Spread P&R is a basic offense that contains almost unstoppable options when run fluidly. The key is to exploit what the defense gives you by having the ball handler recognize the options quick.

    I think what we saw was a team/coach that stuck with the most basic aspects of the system due to those being the plays that produced the best results in a limited time. Reminds me of when you play a new game and are rusty/unfamiliar. Have a bit of success with like 1 or 2 plays and keep using them because you're too impatient to practice first before entering the season (hope that made sense).

    Anyway, we must understand this system:

    1. Isn't geared for one specific player
    2. Looks really bad when not run correctly
    3. Doesn't contain plays that have guys running around 2 screens for a catch and shoot, ala Allan or Miller

    #3 type plays are reserved for game winning/end of quarter shots.

    In conclusion, I believe once Billups has enough time and practice to fully grasp the system as well as his teammates, it will run with efficiency.

    The reason a player like Williams camps out at the corner three is by design. MOA felt Willams had a high enough 3pt% for that role, and doesn't mind sacrificing size due to his philosophy that:

    Constant scoring puts pressure on both the opponent's offense (to keep up), and defense (to get stops), and feels not many teams can do this, regardless of personnel.

    The reason why TD doesn't drive effectively is because, well simply he can't. Not without the built-in flop to the floor he's taught himself to do naturally, almost every drive. That's. Something I've pointed out many times.

    Ask DFDH... if he plays ball, he should recognize as a guard how players who don't use their bodies well with timing for their release on drives get their sh!t punched. And Toney was getting his sh!t punched when his timing wasn't correct, so he resorted to crying foul (and flopping) ever drive- even with little to no contact.

    Shump should fix this.

    Time should help incorporate Melo & Billups better. I think the the victory against the Bulls (not Christmas, some other game) was when our offense was run best- but I think that was the pre-trade O.

  11. #11
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Default a pragmatic post from Red.. wtf?!?

    Originally Posted by Red
    I think your trepidation with MOA and our offense stems from a few factors and the main one being limited time- something I would normally call an excuse. But when analyzing what we saw that seems like the main issue.

    The Spread P&R is a basic offense that contains almost unstoppable options when run fluidly. The key is to exploit what the defense gives you by having the ball handler recognize the options quick.

    I think what we saw was a team/coach that stuck with the most basic aspects of the system due to those being the plays that produced the best results in a limited time. Reminds me of when you play a new game and are rusty/unfamiliar. Have a bit of success with like 1 or 2 plays and keep using them because you're too impatient to practice first before entering the season (hope that made sense).

    Anyway, we must understand this system:

    1. Isn't geared for one specific player
    2. Looks really bad when not run correctly
    3. Doesn't contain plays that have guys running around 2 screens for a catch and shoot, ala Allan or Miller

    #3 type plays are reserved for game winning/end of quarter shots.

    In conclusion, I believe once Billups has enough time and practice to fully grasp the system as well as his teammates, it will run with efficiency.

    The reason a player like Williams camps out at the corner three is by design. MOA felt Willams had a high enough 3pt% for that role, and doesn't mind sacrificing size due to his philosophy that:

    Constant scoring puts pressure on both the opponent's offense (to keep up), and defense (to get stops), and feels not many teams can do this, regardless of personnel.

    The reason why TD doesn't drive effectively is because, well simply he can't. Not without the built-in flop to the floor he's taught himself to do naturally, almost every drive. That's. Something I've pointed out many times.

    Ask DFDH... if he plays ball, he should recognize as a guard how players who don't use their bodies well with timing for their release on drives get their sh!t punched. And Toney was getting his sh!t punched when his timing wasn't correct, so he resorted to crying foul (and flopping) ever drive- even with little to no contact.

    Shump should fix this.

    Time should help incorporate Melo & Billups better. I think the the victory against the Bulls (not Christmas, some other game) was when our offense was run best- but I think that was the pre-trade O.
    Wow.. I actually agree w most everything stated here.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    I think your trepidation with MOA and our offense stems from a few factors and the main one being limited time- something I would normally call an excuse. But when analyzing what we saw that seems like the main issue.
    I've never denied limited time being a factor. I'm not that unreasonable. If we recall the start of last season - the abysmal start that it was - then we can flip a 2 sided coin in regard to opportunity and time as a factor. The onus, at that time, was put on to the players to fit in to the system, and not vice versa.

    That will be the million $ question for me, and perhaps others, this year. Is it the team's lack of capability to coincide with D'Antoni's math, or D'Antoni's incapability to diversify his module to fit what he has - not what he needs? See NY's 2010-2011 campaign and Phoenix's previous 4 seasons for reference to the latter.

    Having said that, I wonder if we'll see that again this year? No doubt. The lockout will be the go to for reasoning this time.

    The Spread P&R is a basic offense that contains almost unstoppable options when run fluidly. The key is to exploit what the defense gives you by having STEVE NASH recognize the options quick.
    Yes, I get that. Entirely. Watched, listened and read about it.

    I think what we saw was a team/coach that stuck with the most basic aspects of the system due to those being the plays that produced the best results in a limited time.
    Perhaps I'm being overly staunch about it, but 2 months - even with STAT resting toward the end - was no excuse for our tediously repetitious offence. It was/that's hardly the hallmark of a revolutionary, limit pushing, offensive mastermind. WTF were we doing in practice? Fine tuning our isolation plays? Practicing our perimeter shooting? Cursing the inside game? What?

    Reminds me of when you play a new game and are rusty/unfamiliar. Have a bit of success with like 1 or 2 plays and keep using them because you're too impatient to practice first before entering the season (hope that made sense).
    Hmm? That was pretty Kiyaman. No, I do understand you, but I don't think that approach should be considered anywhere along the lines of acceptable in a professional league of any kind. Though I think you're right. Do you think that's acceptable? For, what is it, $6M a year?

    Anyway, we must understand this system:

    1. Isn't geared for one specific player
    Bar the fact that it practically was prior to Melo's arrival. The supporting cast (excluding Felton, who still shot too many threes) were all based around the perimeter. Even in the case of exploiting a mismatch with the 6'10 Gallo, his role was to initiate from the perimeter at all times. Not even a shred of alternate thinking, as is MD's way.

    2. Looks really bad when not run correctly
    Or when run by those not tailored perfectly to its execution. But it's not like MD runs a democratic stance on what and whom for where in his equations/coaching, which are one and the same in many ways.

    3. Doesn't contain plays that have guys running around 2 screens for a catch and shoot, ala Allan or Miller.
    My qualm in this regard, is that the system is almost completely void of alternates. It's a jamboree that maintains the same rhythm: eventually even the crappest euphemistic musician [defensive opponent] can catch on to its repetition.

    #3 type plays are reserved for game winning/end of quarter shots.
    Not in New York. You seem to have receded your stance almost entirely. Does no one remember our close out plays? They were utter feces.

    In conclusion, I believe once Billups has enough time and practice to fully grasp the system as well as his teammates, it will run with efficiency.
    This, of course, is to assume that the system is best for, not only CB, but the team. If Melo's mid-high block/post games aren't incorporated [or receded] for the sake of 'doing as he's told', then the system has to go. If I don't see, and I quote Kobe MF'ing Bryant here "the beast on the block" get the ball with his back to the basket, 10 feet out, 5-10 times a game, then that's ****ed.

    The reason a player like Williams camps out at the corner three is by design. MOA felt Willams had a high enough 3pt% for that role, and doesn't mind sacrificing size due to his philosophy that:

    Constant scoring puts pressure on both the opponent's offense (to keep up), and defense (to get stops), and feels not many teams can do this, regardless of personnel.
    Yes! I get it!

    Time should help incorporate Melo & Billups better. I think the the victory against the Bulls (not Christmas, some other game) was when our offense was run best- but I think that was the pre-trade O.
    There were 2 occasions on which we beat the Bulls last season with our pre trade team. One was in Chicago where we hit, correct me if I'm wrong, 15 treys. Last season, whenever we hit 11+ from the arc, we won. What a game plan! If we hit under 8, we lost - almost indefinitely.

    The other was with both Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah out, at home. I remember it well because STAT smashed Rose's driving attempt, and later on in the next half they had words.

    Neither of these victories built our team. Wins are wins, but some are a lot less fruitless than others.

    ☆ Basically, I don't believe that our team fits D'Antoni's bill. That's it. We can babble and manually stimulate ourselves about how all this O is the way to go, but I won't buy it until it's tried and tested outside of Phoenix, Arizona. Do I think he should be fired? No, I do not. I still think after what's happened that he deserves his last chance. After last season, his advocates will have to forgive my skepticism.

    Will some time help Billups and Melo be incorporated in to a winning flow of D'Antoni's high octane perimeter/P&R offense first, defense last approach? We'll see. If not, we're in for a media **** storm and some, what I consider, obvious truths lain on the table.

    It's Saturday night, I'm going out for a blinder.

    What happened to you, Red?

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Wow.. I actually agree w most everything stated here.
    That doesn't make it pragmatic.

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    That doesn't make it pragmatic.
    I said his post was pragmatic because he's sometimes comes off overly emotional and reactive. Red's been processing/analysing this past season and it shows. MDA's offense works, very well infact. His O, half court or otherwise is the least of our worries Crazy. There's a reason why the Olympic team uses it. It's because that offensive system is bona fide.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Sep 10, 2011 at 14:36.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Question Mark

    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    I said his post was pragmatic because he's sometimes comes off overly emotional and reactive. Red's been processing/analysing this past season and it shows. MDA's offense works, very well infact. His O, half court or otherwise is the least of our worries Crazy. There's a reason why the Olympic team uses it. It's because that offensive system is bona fide.
    Pragmatic? So anyone who doesn't agree with you entirely, it seems, are obviously non-pragmatic. They couldn't possibly be thinking at a high enough level. Do you even realize how you're insulting Red on this one?

    Team USA did not run D'Antoni's O. Not even close. He was a trinket in the offense, nothing more. You can look him up on YouTube, read articles, whatever. It was coach K all the way. And no, LeBron's comments about him hold no sway on the matter.

    Bona fide? Back that up outside of Phoenix.

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