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Thread: WTF is going on?? LOCKOUT BS!!!

  1. #16
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    Originally Posted by DontForgetDerekHarper
    There needs to be a level of play, as well as a level of production with regards to minutes and games based on injuries and surgeries etc; that relates to the amount that each player makes

    joe johnsons contract by 2016 if he is producing half of what he is now, and only plays 55 games, there should be a clause that his contract will be reduced.
    Please tell me how this is remotely logical.
    Why would a player ever agree to this?


    Why would any normal worker ever agree to this. Would you agree to your job if you had to complete a certain amount of something every day? If you didn't get your job done that day, oh well, you don't get paid.

    What if you were sick with the flu for a week and you couldn't work? Or even worse, you work construction and you broke your arm over the weekend playing with your kids.

    I understand what you are getting at but to make it simple the idea is just moronic.

    If you want a contract to be based on performance you can have incentive-laden contracts that will give players bonuses for playing well or even just playing their average ability. But the entire contract can't be incentive based.
    Unfortunately ALL NBA CONTRACTS ARE 100% GUARANTEED! so incentive-laden contracts don't exist.

    Which is where the problem lies. Why are these contracts 100% guaranteed?

    (You might say, well contracts in baseball are guaranteed, and it clearly works there. Well baseball doesn't have a salary cap)

    This all happened due to terrible business management on the owners and Stern's part.

    You need to be retarded to think that Joe Johnson deserved that contract. Yes I know the situation in Atlanta and why they did it, but if we could see what was going on so could David Stern. And a good CEO would stop that from happening.



    I do agree with you though about buying out peoples contracts.

    You want to know why teams are losing money? Because NBA owners are just trading around debt with bad contracts in order to obtain a roster spot. After Curry signed that contract what incentive does he have to play? If he's a lazy schmuck, why would he play? Sure everyone in NY will always hate him, but Im sure he doesn't care. Why does the league need to hold onto these dirty contracts. If players are worried about injuries and their future if they get injured, then set up a good benefits account for them once they retire.

    The buying out peoples contract dilemma is equivalent to a hippie vegan community on a remote island that has a pet rabbit that eats and infects all of the communities Grain. No one wants to kill the rabbit because that would be inhumane. So instead what do they decide to do, to "fix the problem", they decide that each family will take turns looking after the rabbit for a month. For that month that family will basically starve.

    <Sarcasm> But atleast the entire town isn't starving for a year! </Sarcasm>

    The solution is clear. MAN UP AND KILL THE RABBIT


    If I were the owners I would say to the players, here is the deal

    you can
    1. Keep your contracts, but they are not guaranteed
    2. We trash the contracts, give you new ones that are at a lower rate, but guarantee them and keep a hard cap that regulates how much money can be spent.
    or
    3.
    Go **** yourselves and play overseas. Before you go I should let you know though, that those contracts you are getting aren't guaranteed, your living arrangements for away games will be similar to sleeping in motels, your security will be, well.... non existent, and the arenas you will be playing at will be, well...... high school gyms. See ya later.

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Also say good bye to all of your expensive endorsements.
    Last edited by insanity4289; Oct 01, 2011 at 02:42.

  2. #17
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    Angry Owners vs owners lockout

    Over the course of the week, various sources with knowledge of the
    talks have shared some of the concepts being discussed with
    ESPN.com. Possibilities presented by the league as alternatives to a
    hard cap include:

    The institution of a sliding "Supertax" that would charge teams $2 in
    luxury tax for every dollar over $70 million in payroll, $3 for every
    dollar over $75 million in payroll and $4 for every dollar for teams with
    payrolls above $80 million

    • A provision to allow each team to release one player via the so-called
    "amnesty" clause and gain both salary-cap and luxury-tax relief when that
    player's cap number is removed from the books

    • Shortening guaranteed contracts to a maximum of three or four seasons

    • Limiting Larry Bird rights -- which enable teams to exceed the salary cap
    to re-sign their own free agents -- to one player per team per season

    • Reducing the annual mid-level exception, which was valued at $5.8 million
    last season, to roughly $3 million annually and limiting mid-level contracts to
    a maximum of two or three seasons in length as opposed to the current
    maximum of five seasons

    • A new "Carmelo Rule" that would prevent teams -- as the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Knicks did in February with Anthony -- from using a Bird exception to sign or
    extend a player acquired by trade unless they are acquired before July 1 of
    the final season of the player's contract

    • The abolition of sign-and-trades and the bi-annual exception worth $2
    million

    • Significant reductions in maximum salaries and annual raises and a 5
    percent rollbacks on current contracts

    Each of the new-rules have a hell-no concept when u break it down....example:

    So far there are just four teams with a 2011-2012 payroll currently
    committed to over $70 million right now and that’s the Lakers ($91.3 million),
    The Magic ($74.81 million), The Spurs ($73.18 million) and Celtics ($72.47
    million) –

    so the number of teams impacted by such a harsh tax system is small.
    However the Players view the tax system proposed as a hard cap by
    another name and that’s considered a deal breaker for their side.

    To give you a sense of what that means; The Lakers $91.3 million
    payroll would incur $10 million in tax for being over $70 million.
    They would also incur $15 million in tax for being over $75 million and
    $45.2 million for being $11.3 million over $80 million for a grand total of
    $70.2 million in tax.
    Add $70.2 million in tax to their $91.3 million payroll for a 2011-2012
    player cost of $161.5 million.

    Derik Fisher will not put his boss (Bus) into a financial crisis for building a
    contender team.
    And the shortening of guaranteed contracts to 3 years has to be one of
    the foolish ideas on the table.....if u can only offer 3 years guaranteed to
    superstar players "D.Howard, CP3, and Durant," then they are only going
    to sign for 3 years at max salaries.

  3. #18
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    Cool Its all good even when its bad.....

    I have not seen this lockout issue aimed towards players high salaries
    as much as the full-issue been on the stoppage of superstars and star
    role-players being on the same team through trade or FA market.

    Its a bitter and petty lockout where cheap owners like Cleveland Cavs
    want payback for losing a billion dollar asset for nothing in return to a
    Miami Heat rich owner.

    NBA owners got angry at Stern for allowing the 2007 offseason of the
    Celtics Big-3 to be formulated. And got totally pissed in the 2007-8 season
    when Stern allowed the Lakers to pull off an uneven trade for Pau Gasol.
    The icing on the cake was in the 2010 offseason when owners got a large
    NBA fan-base to follow their anger at Stern for allowing the "Lebron Decision"
    ........Lebron went "DYNASTY" with his decision.......talk about pissed.....

    Damn near 90% of all NBA Fans were "PISSSED-OFF" at Lebron's decision.
    And to make matters really hit a nerve......Miami-Big-3 went to the FINALS
    ...........and let a soft-ass Mavs team win the championship in 6 games with
    the Miami Heat playing nonchalant in every 4th quarter.

    Owners & Fans didnt care one bit about the Knicks giving Amare a $100M
    guaranteed contract on sore knees.....when Stern allowed the Knicks to
    complete an uneven trade for superstars "Melo & Billups" that was the last
    straw to an already pushed button for a long-long no solution CBA lockout.
    u cant stop what has already been a big part of the new age.....
    Its like trying to negotiate a solution in 2006 to stop your child from texting...

    remember the price of texting in 2006

  4. #19
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Over the course of the week, various sources with knowledge of the
    talks have shared some of the concepts being discussed with
    ESPN.com. Possibilities presented by the league as alternatives to a
    hard cap include:

    This all sounds really good

  5. #20
    Veteran DontForgetDerekHarper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by insanity4289
    Please tell me how this is remotely logical.
    Why would a player ever agree to this?


    Why would any normal worker ever agree to this. Would you agree to your job if you had to complete a certain amount of something every day? If you didn't get your job done that day, oh well, you don't get paid.

    What if you were sick with the flu for a week and you couldn't work? Or even worse, you work construction and you broke your arm over the weekend playing with your kids.

    I understand what you are getting at but to make it simple the idea is just moronic.

    If you want a contract to be based on performance you can have incentive-laden contracts that will give players bonuses for playing well or even just playing their average ability. But the entire contract can't be incentive based.
    Unfortunately ALL NBA CONTRACTS ARE 100% GUARANTEED! so incentive-laden contracts don't exist.

    Which is where the problem lies. Why are these contracts 100% guaranteed?

    (You might say, well contracts in baseball are guaranteed, and it clearly works there. Well baseball doesn't have a salary cap)

    This all happened due to terrible business management on the owners and Stern's part.

    You need to be retarded to think that Joe Johnson deserved that contract. Yes I know the situation in Atlanta and why they did it, but if we could see what was going on so could David Stern. And a good CEO would stop that from happening.



    I do agree with you though about buying out peoples contracts.

    You want to know why teams are losing money? Because NBA owners are just trading around debt with bad contracts in order to obtain a roster spot. After Curry signed that contract what incentive does he have to play? If he's a lazy schmuck, why would he play? Sure everyone in NY will always hate him, but Im sure he doesn't care. Why does the league need to hold onto these dirty contracts. If players are worried about injuries and their future if they get injured, then set up a good benefits account for them once they retire.

    The buying out peoples contract dilemma is equivalent to a hippie vegan community on a remote island that has a pet rabbit that eats and infects all of the communities Grain. No one wants to kill the rabbit because that would be inhumane. So instead what do they decide to do, to "fix the problem", they decide that each family will take turns looking after the rabbit for a month. For that month that family will basically starve.

    <Sarcasm> But atleast the entire town isn't starving for a year! </Sarcasm>

    The solution is clear. MAN UP AND KILL THE RABBIT


    If I were the owners I would say to the players, here is the deal

    you can
    1. Keep your contracts, but they are not guaranteed
    2. We trash the contracts, give you new ones that are at a lower rate, but guarantee them and keep a hard cap that regulates how much money can be spent.
    or
    3. Go **** yourselves and play overseas. Before you go I should let you know though, that those contracts you are getting aren't guaranteed, your living arrangements for away games will be similar to sleeping in motels, your security will be, well.... non existent, and the arenas you will be playing at will be, well...... high school gyms. See ya later.

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Also say good bye to all of your expensive endorsements.

    45 posts huh

    you do realize you are saying the same exact thing as me and I am the illogical one ?

    who are you any way ?

    keep your contracts but they are not guaranteed

    didnt I specifically detail the exact same statement you moronic fool

    dont ever jump on here with out even a rep point and state my post is illogical, and then complete your response with a consolidated version of my whole post; it makes you look assinine.

  6. #21
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    Default Duh-wayne Brings the Shee-it to Lockout Talks

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    nice to hear they're actually talking and negotiating, finger pointing and apologizing, and wearing flannel!

  7. #22
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    Originally Posted by DontForgetDerekHarper
    45 posts huh

    you do realize you are saying the same exact thing as me and I am the illogical one ?

    who are you any way ?

    keep your contracts but they are not guaranteed

    didnt I specifically detail the exact same statement you moronic fool

    dont ever jump on here with out even a rep point and state my post is illogical, and then complete your response with a consolidated version of my whole post; it makes you look assinine.


    Congratulations you have over 1,000 posts on a forum that has less than 300 active members.
    What was I thinking questioning you?

    I guess someone's intelligence is directly correlated to how many posts they have on a knicks forum that gets a grand total of 2.2 unique views a day.

    Hey Guess what?

    NO ONE GIVES A **** You pretentious forum dwelling F***

    You said
    There needs to be a level of play, as well as a level of production with regards to minutes and games based on injuries and surgeries etc; that relates to the amount that each player makes

    I.E
    joe johnsons contract by 2016 if he is producing half of what he is now, and only plays 55 games, there should be a clause that his contract will be reduced.
    So if a player gets injured he doesn't get paid?
    If a player has to have surgery, their salary gets cut?

    I'm talking about player bonuses granted for playing up to a certain caliber performance or making the playoffs.

    You're talking about not even guaranteeing a players contract for a season.

    We aren't talking about the same thing.

    And just so you know asinine is spelled with 1 s.
    Last edited by insanity4289; Oct 01, 2011 at 21:20.

  8. #23
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    Originally Posted by CoolClyde
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    nice to hear they're actually talking and negotiating, finger pointing and apologizing, and wearing flannel!
    A source told NBA.com's David Aldridge that at one point, NBA commissioner David Stern was emphatically directing a comment -- and pointing his finger -- at Wade, the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] All-Star guard. Wade objected and interrupted Stern, reportedly saying: "Don't point your finger at me. I'm a grown man. I have children."
    Lmao Stern got owned.

  9. #24
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    Originally Posted by AmareForPresident
    Lmao Stern got owned.

    I know Stern sucks but **** Lebron, Wade, and Chris Paul.

    Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Chris Paul reportedly said before Friday's negotiations that they’re willing to lose the season rather than make further concessions to the owners.
    They are greedy *******s.

    Everyone else is talking about how they are willing to come down in their revenue percentage.

  10. #25
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    Originally Posted by insanity4289
    I know Stern sucks but **** Lebron, Wade, and Chris Paul.

    Quote:
    Dwyane Wade, LeBron James and Chris Paul reportedly said before Friday's negotiations that they’re willing to lose the season rather than make further concessions to the owners.

    They are greedy *******s.

    Everyone else is talking about how they are willing to come down in their revenue percentage.
    that's f*cking insanity! nothing personal, insanity4289...

  11. #26
    Veteran DontForgetDerekHarper's Avatar
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    Please tell me how this is remotely logical.
    Why would a player ever agree to this?



    Insanity, come on man

    when you call a suggestion illogical, with out reading exactly what i meant, I am going to call you out on that; I stated that when a player becomes dead meat at the end of a bench, there should be a clause in every player's contract (amnesty) which they are proposing that allows the team to rid themselves of the burden of the contract.

    so how is it illogical that the same amnesty clause I suggested a week ago, is illogical when it is the same CBA proposal they are discussing now ?


    this is why I called you a fool.

  12. #27
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    Unhappy This is it.....

    This is the week Oct 3rd to Oct 7th, we fans will find out if more forest wood
    is thrown into the fire, or NBA Stern were prepared and equipped with extra
    fire extinquisher on July 1st to put out any out of control heated fire to save
    the 2011-12 season.
    That's the job of a neutral commissioner (refferee) the onwners vs players
    meeting.

    While some argue [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] by joining his rivals in New York, I think that he's right where he needs to be. Trust me, LeBron and Wade and the guys are doing their job. Kobe's angle is a little different. He's showing the owners -- specifically his team's owner, Jerry Buss -- that if the league doesn't want to profit off of his name and his game, he'll help someone else do it. Kobe has always had the image of a guy always playing, always in a gym. (It's an image he's helped manufacture, though there's obvious truth in it.) What better way to flex his power than to threaten to play during the lockout by being in negotiations to play during the lockout as the stoppage reaches a critical moment? I don't think Kobe could be as threatening in New York as he is in Bologna.

    You call it???

  13. #28
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    Angry

    NEW YORK – Within the past year, an NBA owner was marveling over the staying power of David Stern. Stern’s support had narrowed, his bully act worn thin, and the owner insisted how his peers would talk so tough about the commissioner when he walked out of the room. And then Stern would come through the door, and it almost always faded away.
    “All of a sudden, all these rich, powerful guys are just staring at their shoes,” the owner said.
    After all the suggestions – here and elsewhere – that Stern had lost clout with a brash new generation of owners, several management sources still insist: He’s ruled the owners’ day in these labor talks, and he’s still positioning all the pawns in this lockout. The NBA has moved to the cusp of canceling regular-season games, to a nuclear basketball winter, and has still refused to seriously engage the players in talks on a new collective bargaining agreement.

    This is why some player agents are threatening to decertify the union as soon as this week, throw out executive director Billy Hunter and his lawyers, and file an anti-trust lawsuit in federal court. They’ve wanted to take on Stern forever, and they’re determined to replace Hunter and his lawyers with hard-core labor lawyers and throw some uncertainty into the owners’ fight. This could be a wild scene in Manhattan, where defiance out of Stern, out of his owners, promises to inspire all hell to break loose.
    Once again, does Stern want to be the commissioner for everyone on Tuesday, and ultimately spare his sport a bloodbath of courtrooms, lawsuits and maybe a lost 2011-12 season? He needs to gather his owners, propose a deal the players can accept, and understand that this is no time to run up the score on the union. The owners have already won big. Stern’s spent most of his professional life as an unapologetic bully, but this time, enough’s enough.
    Stern is chasing his own big salary, his own big bonuses, and he knows there’s a deal the players will take that will give his owners a fair chance for profits and competitive balance. He invited this insurrection out of the agents, and now it’s coming. He needs to end it, and spare the NBA a needless bloodbath.

  14. #29
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    Angry

    “We’re not just walking off the cliff with [Hunter],” one prominent agent told Yahoo! Sports on Monday. “We’re ready to take the next step and decertify. We’re not going to let the league set up (Tuesday’s) meeting as a way to trap us into a bad deal.”
    Said another powerful agent: “Stern doesn’t want to deal with us; he wants Billy and his lawyers in there. Maybe if Stern’s faced with revealing financial records, legal costs and paying possibly billions in damages, maybe he’ll have more incentive to make a deal than sitting across the room from Hunter, eat turkey sandwiches and taking a percentage point at a time away from the players.”
    Stern doesn’t want the nuclear option of decertification, but he’s forced the players to pursue it. This has been a rigged process for years, and most agents regret only that they didn’t oust Hunter on July 1, when the owners locked them out. Back then, Hunter could’ve stayed as the front man in talks the way the NFLPA’s DeMaurice Smith did in the NFL’s decertification, but not now. Hunter’s done, and the agents can’t wait to unload him. For those who say that this isn’t personal, well, they’re kidding themselves.
    The fans don’t care about those politics, nor should they. Without the framework of a deal, these next 24 hours could bring an Armageddon that will set back years of NBA momentum. The players have offered givebacks, and Stern and his owners sneered at them. The agents have wanted Stern on a level playing field for years, and they’re determined to sue that smirk off his face. They don’t care about the PR war, they care about winning. Billions of dollars are a stake, and, truth be told, the agents can spare the players the inevitable bad-guy role that the public invariably thrusts upon them in these labor disputes.
    The agents are willing to become the targets, and they’re used to it. Miami’s [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] never deserved the public scorn for his honesty with Yahoo! Sports when he [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]: In an uncapped system, there would be owners justifiably willing to pay upwards of $50 million a season for the NBA’s transformational stars. This was no demand, but an honest assessment of the value the elite stars bring to basketball.

  15. #30
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    Angry

    As the labor fight plays out, Stern is slowly seeing the onus leave him, and transfer to his players. This makes his life easier now, but so much harder later when his league’s most important commodity – his star players – take a public-perception beating. The players’ job is to fight for themselves and for the little guys in the union, and when they do, they get torched.
    After the Wade story was posted, a GM reached out to tell me: “There’s absolutely no doubt that the top NBA stars are the most underpaid in sports. The max salaries created the Heat. The owners have only themselves to blame if they don’t like what happened with the Heat. There’s no way [Heat owner] Micky Arison could afford the $140 million to pay those three in a free market situation – and that’s $140 million annually.”


    The [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] will be in New York for the meeting Tuesday, a source said.
    Boston’s [Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ] will return, too. They’re the thirtysomething stars who’ve made their money and reached the point where they don’t much care if they take care a public-relations beating for fighting the owners. They have the right to resent owners such as Phoenix’s Robert Sarver, who’ve brought no value to the league, who’ve done nothing to make franchises better.
    Sarver has received a lot of blame for his hard-line leanings in these talks, but one ownership voice dismisses his gravity. “I don’t think he has any importance in the room, because he’s always shooting his mouth off,” one high-ranking NBA official with access to the talks said. “I’m not sure anyone’s paying attention to him. Stern is still running things there.”

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