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Thread: To All the Naysayers...

  1. #16
    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I'm not sure what you are saying. I assume you are referring to veteran's minimum exceptions and after free agency has ended (i.e. 2013 free agency). A team that is under the cap during free agency cannot exceed the cap. That's the point of a cap. A team cannot spend all of its cap space and then use the MLE to add other players during the same free agent period. That team would have to wait until the following year's free agency period to use the MLE.
    Are you sure about that? I thought once you are capped you can use the MLE. Maybe we have done that in the same year with S&T's that brought us over. I'm not a cap expert.

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    Member NYallDay's Avatar
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    but isnt this what the heat did last year?.....use all their cap on the big 3, sign damiper and juwan howard and the like to vet mins to fill up the cap and then get mike miller on the MLE.....


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I'm not sure what you are saying. I assume you are referring to veteran's minimum exceptions and after free agency has ended (i.e. 2013 free agency). A team that is under the cap during free agency cannot exceed the cap. That's the point of a cap. A team cannot spend all of its cap space and then use the MLE to add other players during the same free agent period. That team would have to wait until the following year's free agency period to use the MLE.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Are you sure about that? I thought once you are capped you can use the MLE. Maybe we have done that in the same year with S&T's that brought us over. I'm not a cap expert.
    I am positive.

    Originally Posted by NYallDay
    but isnt this what the heat did last year?.....use all their cap on the big 3, sign damiper and juwan howard and the like to vet mins to fill up the cap and then get mike miller on the MLE.....
    No. The Big 3 all took less ($14 mil each) in order to sign Haslem, Miller and Joel Anthony to decent contracts (Haslem and Miller also took less than what they could have received elsewhere). They did not use the MLE on these players because the MLE was not available to them. They only spent their cap space and did not go above with these free agent signings. Miami is free to use the MLE this year though as they are currently over the cap.

    You are correct, they did use the vet minimum exceptions to get Ziggy, Dampier and Howard. Vet minimum exceptions do not count against the cap. Not every player is eligible for a vet minimum contract though.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I am positive.



    No. The Big 3 all took less ($14 mil each) in order to sign Haslem, Miller and Joel Anthony to decent contracts (Haslem and Miller also took less than what they could have received elsewhere). They did not use the MLE on these players because the MLE was not available to them. They only spent their cap space and did not go above with these free agent signings. Miami is free to use the MLE this year though as they are currently over the cap.

    You are correct, they did use the vet minimum exceptions to get Ziggy, Dampier and Howard. Vet minimum exceptions do not count against the cap. Not every player is eligible for a vet minimum contract though.
    I'm pretty sure you are wrong about not being able to use the MLE in the same year you sign players that will take you close or over the cap.

    If a team is below the cap, then their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap. This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question numbers 30, 31, 32, 33). A team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.

    So being under the cap does not necessarily mean a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $49.5 million, and a team has $43 million committed to salaries. They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap. So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and instead must use their exceptions.

    Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).
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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    I'm pretty sure you are wrong about not being able to use the MLE in the same year you sign players that will take you close or over the cap.



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    Yes this is correct, but the exceptions are withheld from their cap space. For example, if a team has $3 mil in cap space and the MLE is $5 mil, the team can choose to retain their right to hold the MLE, putting them $2 mil over the cap and giving them just $5 mil to spend instead of $3 mil. The team cannot spend the $3 mil in cap space and then use the MLE for an additional $5 mil for a total of $8 mil in free agent spending with only $3 mil in cap space, which is what you were implying (i.e. spend all of the $20 mil in cap sapce and then sign a MLE player), I believe.

    As the link stated, teams under the cap can renounce their exceptions, as we did and Miami did last year.

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    Hannibal Lecter TR1LL10N's Avatar
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    BTW, the Heat salary for 2010 was $66,735,985 while the cap is $58.044 million. They were under the cap prior to the off season beginning so they had to have exceptions available to go over the cap by nearly 10mil. No?

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    Edit unless they had nearly 10mil in Vet minimums. IDK...

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    BTW, the Heat salary for 2010 was $66,735,985 while the cap is $58.044 million. They were under the cap prior to the off season beginning so they had to have exceptions available to go over the cap by nearly 10mil. No?

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    Edit unless they had nearly 10mil in Vet minimums. IDK...
    They only had Mario Chalmers on the roster when free agency began. They spent $55 mil in free agency on Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Miller, Haslem and Anthony, (and the remaining space on Arroyo and other minimum deals) eating up their cap space. The rest was given to minimum vets (7 in total - Bibby, Dampier, House, Howard, Ziggy, JOnes and Magloire). As I stated, teams are allowed to give as many min vet deals as they want going over the cap as high as they want. I believe the max mn vet deal is around $1.5 mil, but I would have to look that up. The cap does not restrain min vet deals. The MLE was not available to them because they renounced it, as did the Knicks.


    * Edit - The min vet rule is under the old CBA. I'm not sure if it has changed under the new CBA.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Nov 02, 2011 at 14:36.

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    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Who are the big free agents past 2012? I don't want us to wait for a big move that long, but we don't know what we'll get in the next one or two seasons.

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    You guys need to chill out, we'd definitely have to trade Amar'e and 2 role players to get Howard.

    I think D-Will can be had for nothing really, he won't sign a new contract for the Nets, I mean it's the Nets.....

    CP3 can be had for Fields, Billup's expiring, 2 other role players and picks, while keeping Amar'e and Melo at the same time.


    Conclusion: Howard in NYC won't happen! We won't give up Amar'e for him, but the Magic want a star in return. Howard will join the Lakers and Gasol plus role players and picks will go to Orlando in return.

    Our best shot to get a legit top 5 player in this league and keep our 2 star players is CP3. He'd fill a need at PG and at the same time make us so much better, especially STAT, he'd get as many dunks and layups he got with Nash in Phoenix, because CP3 can actually run the pick and roll, opposed to Felton, Douglas, Billups......who turned STAT into an 18 feet jump shooter and iso player.

    Williams is a great defender and tough as it gets, but he'd be the third option only in terms of skills and talent out of those 3. Still, if we can get him for nothing or almost nothing, I'd say sign him.

    I said it before and I'll say it again, we need to give 120% to get CP3. Howard is Laker bound and Williams is not as good as Paul. Chris is the guy who can get us over the hump and who cares if we lose a past it Billups, a soft Fields, an undersized combo guard in Douglas and some meaningless first round picks for the greatest point guard in the game?

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sprewell-Houston
    You guys need to chill out, we'd definitely have to trade Amar'e and 2 role players to get Howard.

    I think D-Will can be had for nothing really, he won't sign a new contract for the Nets, I mean it's the Nets.....

    CP3 can be had for Fields, Billup's expiring, 2 other role players and picks, while keeping Amar'e and Melo at the same time.


    Conclusion: Howard in NYC won't happen! We won't give up Amar'e for him, but the Magic want a star in return. Howard will join the Lakers and Gasol plus role players and picks will go to Orlando in return.

    Our best shot to get a legit top 5 player in this league and keep our 2 star players is CP3. He'd fill a need at PG and at the same time make us so much better, especially STAT, he'd get as many dunks and layups he got with Nash in Phoenix, because CP3 can actually run the pick and roll, opposed to Felton, Douglas, Billups......who turned STAT into an 18 feet jump shooter and iso player.

    Williams is a great defender and tough as it gets, but he'd be the third option only in terms of skills and talent out of those 3. Still, if we can get him for nothing or almost nothing, I'd say sign him.

    I said it before and I'll say it again, we need to give 120% to get CP3. Howard is Laker bound and Williams is not as good as Paul. Chris is the guy who can get us over the hump and who cares if we lose a past it Billups, a soft Fields, an undersized combo guard in Douglas and some meaningless first round picks for the greatest point guard in the game?
    I could see your Howard scenario playing out, but I could also see him looking at STAT & Melo as a better situation than a year or two with Kobe, and then being in rebuilding mode.

    The point about picks is a decent one, but let's not act like Orlando has much leverage in this situation. Denver had the CBA leverage over Melo, and Melo still got everything he wanted. For Orlando, NO, and NJ, it's literally "trade me where I wanna go, or I'm out" and it's not nearly half the bluff that Melo was laying out there, cause we know he would have gone to NJ if the trade here didn't work out. Dwight, Chris, and Deron have no reason under the sun to give in and sign an extension to go somewhere they don't want to play. Even the extra year with the Bird Rights (if it still exists) is a moot point, because, as we saw with LBJ and Christina Bosh, the FA move can be worked into a S&T for some trade exemptions and a pick, giving the player his extra year.

    So there's no incentive or pressure for any of these dudes to sign where they don't wanna sign. If Orlando says "Amar'e, Shumpert, Billups, etc" and we say "Dwights gonna walk, we'll wait" and they go back to Dwight and he shoots down trades elsewhere because he wants to play here, guess what happens?

    This kinda reminds me of last year when in late Sept. and early-mid Oct. I kept saying on these boards "we'll only get Melo if he blocks other trades and the Knicks are the only team left to get a deal done with." Everyone debated better deals, etc. And in Feb. of this year it's down to the Nets and the Knicks, and the Nets pull out...and we get the dude.

    It'll be the same thing this season, except less drawn out cause it's gonna be a rat race to get your compensation for your superstar if you have even less leverage than Denver did.

  11. #26
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    u guys are not given owner James Dolan the credit he deserve....nor did alot
    of u guys understand Dolans comment of signing FA to one year contracts
    this past June. However, the owners in this CBA negotiation seen James
    Dolan future power-plan, when Dolan made GM Donnie Walsh sit on the side
    to watch how power-moves are made for big market franchise "present &
    future" on the final day of the 2011 trade deadline. Outstanding!

    Dolan (personally) cleared the Knicks cap for the offseason of the 2012 star
    FA market (Deron/CP3/D.Howard) in his one-deal to bring Melo & Billups to
    New York. It does not matter how the CBA negotiation turn out it will not
    effect Knicks owner Dolan plan to sign one or two star FA with $16M (or more)
    in the 2012 offseason. Sterns foolish cry in the CBA negotiation of wanting
    to have a system where all 30 teams have a chance to compete for the
    Finals....is a joke in the EASTERN conference the next 5 seasons
    when competing with star-form teams Miami, Chicago, Boston, and the Knicks.

    A note for Walsh & Dantoni fans....
    Dolan got tired of Donnie Walsh small-market tactics of tanking two seasons
    to spend a $100M on one player not named Lebron James, and then trade a
    big New York fan-favorite David Lee for 3 useless contracts that was way
    above Lee's asking price. And fans wondered why Dolan wanted GM Isiah
    back the following week after the David Lee sign and trade.

    For those of u who still do not understand the job given to "Walsh & Dantoni"
    three years ago, and still believe the two inhereted a 15 man roster of
    untradeable and uncoachable players need to wake-up.
    Walsh had 3 draft nights (2008-9-10) to do the only job he was hired to do,
    that was to trade Curry/Zach/Crawford/and Jefferies before July 1st 2010.
    Dantoni was given 2 seasons to make Curry/Zach/Crawford/and Jefferies
    performance tradeable within those two seasons to complete the job he
    was hired for.

  12. #27
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    Does it matter which of the star FA players sign with the Knicks?

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Does it matter which of the star FA players sign with the Knicks?
    Little bit.

    With CP3 or Deron, we become extremely good, annual deep playoff runs with championship aspirations. A perennial contender with people all over the nation either hopping on the bandwagon, or loving to hate us cause we're stacked and ready to attack.

    With Dwight, they change the name of the league to the National Knicks Association and we seriously threaten the '96 Bulls record of 72-10...more than once.

  14. #29
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Alan Hahn Tweet:

    NBA proposal not #Knicks-friendly: no sign-n-trade, no full MLE for taxpaying team. If max out w/ CP3 via free agency, ur locked.

    Not good.

  15. #30
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    Default Max Salaries

    Perhaps I missed it, but I have seen nothing suggesting diminishing the maximum salary under the new CBA. Under the old one, the max, at least for a player with I believe 6 years in the NBA, the max was 30% of the salary cap. If that remains the case, it will be difficult to sign CP3 and not get into serious luxury tax problems almost immediately. Three stars at or close to the max leaves no room for anyone other than minimum salaried players.

    I understood that the proposed cap under the new CBA was going to be something in the neighborhood of $60M. In two or three years, Amare and Melo will be earning almost $47M together. It looks like the owners intend to limit teams to two max stars.

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