@p0nder: we would make the playoffs without Carmelo, actually we had a better record before the trade. Maybe you're not seeing it, but nothing changed after the trade, we won some huge games the same way we did before the trade, we got on a wrong track that led us to a 6 games losing streak in March like we got to the same point in November...
This season will be crucial, will show us whether Carmelo was worth the price or we did a bad move..
Would we have made the playoffs? That's speculative at best, as is all of this discussion and so it's mostly pointless. I feel in a trade scenario you can only really compare the value given up for the value received. No speculation on "what if he waited for free agency". There are way too many variables to accurately say "Melo should have waited until Dec. 1st, 2011 to sign with the knicks and then we'd be in a better place". While that may be true, it's also unreasonable to expect that would have been the outcome of *NOT* doing the deal. Someone else would of made the trade hoping he'd sign, Maybe Denver goes deep in the playoffs with him make the finals and he decides he'd rather stick it out in Denver. Maybe Boston or NJ or the Clippers make a huge play for him and he signs else where. Maybe the entire season (or more) is lost in the lockout and he signs with China and can't escape. Maybe, maybe, maybe... Just too many variables at work.
If we compare talent levels of given up players to what we got in return, I think we flat out "Won" the trade. 2 super star level players for a bunch of guys that barely fill out a roster? That's a no brainer.
And back to the intangible benefits of the trade; I think allowing Carmelo and co. to go through those experiences last year will be crucial in building their chemistry going forward. And crucial to this season's success. Instead of all those hiccups going on now at the beginning of a short season they are mostly done with. Moving forward from here is much easier with Carmelo and Billups already in place.
We are actually a leg up from where Miami was at this point last year because of it. We saw the struggles that they had last season in getting going and we saw that with the Knicks as well after the trade. But now that a season is done with I fully expect that the Knicks have it together enough to be competitive with Miami.
Can I end this non-sense
STAT and CB4 goes down during the 1st round series with Boston
does Ill Will or Gallo go for 42 and 17 while also running the offense...................HELL NO
Raymond Felton gets his ass bust by Rondo just like Toney Douglas, Mozgov gets torn up by KG, JO and Shaq
Who makes game winners against Indy and Memphis, who hits a game winner then makes the game winning block, does Gallo or Ill Will out perform LeBron in Miami and help make the defensive stop to save the game
Melo, CP3, STAT, Shumpert, Jordan>Anything the Knicks could have had and you fools wanted them to have
For ****'s sake.
Illiteracy is rife on this site.
How have any of the posters who see the pristine clarity of the issue with the Melo trade actually compared him to those that were traded? We KNOW that his talents eclipse theirs. ****ing hell.
Their, my, our, his take is not about talent VS talent, it's about scenario VS scenario! All for the sake of an extra $1M/year for one individual!
I beg you, get out your abacus and tally. Tally ho!
Do you not understand!?
Eye read word - brain get message - brain no work: seems like the process of deliberation is precisely that, honestly.
Could you remind me what is our record against the C's after acquiring mighty Carmelo? 0-6, we will get back to this topic when we finally win against Boston, because in G1 mighty Carmelo scored just 15 points (5-18!), added just 4 rebounds and missed the final shot. I'm not saying Carmelo is overrated, he's ****ing talented and G2 showed he can dominate all around, on both ends, but he simply suffers lack of motivation to play 100% in every game. Tell me when he's going to play consistent, hits 30+ points in 9 consecutive games or lead us to an 8 game winning streak...
Exactly. This has nothing to do with talent, or records pre/post trade, or even the act of trading for Melo, and all to do with the choice Melo made. He forced us to do the trade because he wanted money over winning. Nothing else. He forced us to sacrifice for his own gain. Nothing else.
Even Melo had to know that getting him during free agency vs. giving up talent, assets and draft picks is better for the Knicks and gives him a better chance at winning a championship with the Knicks. But that didn't bother him. He wanted money. All $1.45 mil/year of it. Justifying his greed with name calling, insults and comparing talents just seems like a fan of Melo more than the Knicks. I root for the jersey, not the player.
Crazy: You can't compare the scenerio because it NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. Melo would be a Net and we'd have deron williams. Or he'd be a nugget and we'd be up **** creek without a paddle. The case i'm making is that if Melo (and james dolan) *waited* there's a pretty good chance (greater then 50%) that we wouldn't have melo at all.
Are we just throwing hypothetical bull**** around to deride one of our best players willingness to join us ASAP? He fought tooth and nail to get here and now we question if he's got NYK in his heart? SMH.
Please explain. Melo would not be a Net without his decision to sign the extension. Melo would not have resigned with the Nuggets without his decision to sign the contract. If Melo and Dolan had waited, the only thing holding Melo from being a Knick, was Melo. That's it. No other factors. Where is this "greater then 50% that we wouldn't have melo at all" coming from?
And, as I have stated in the past, Melo is not as good as some people on here think. I've followed his career as a Nugget from the beginning. He's overrated, in my humble opinion. If he had gone to the Nets, we could still have built a better TEAM than the one we may be left with. I, for one, am not one of the fans that thinks CP3 + Melo + Amare + min salary scraps is a very good team. But that's my personal opinion and this season will answer all those questions of how good Melo really is.
Wait, he didn't fight anything. Was there anything what kept him away from not extending his contract, waiting until he hits his free agency and then signing with the Knicks? Because even if the Nuggets traded him to the Nets without an extension, he could still say "screw you Prokhorov", call Dolan and sign with us as a free agent. He didn't fight to be a Knickerbocker, he fought to get more $$$, stop making him a superhero that did us a favor.
Melo was smart. He needed a contract and he got it. He would have gotten it elsewere if diden't step in. Denver Nuggets would not let him go for nothing like Cleveland did with LeBron. There is NO WAY that was going to happen. Don't blame Melo. Blame the system...
As I have explained before there are many MANY variables at play. If Melo waited with the nuggets and they went to the finals, do you honestly think he'd still leave for the knicks? Do you honestly think a team of felton and gallo + stat is going to beat the celtics? I'm not even sure IF they'd make the playoffs. Before the trade deadline there were lots of close and ****ty games. Felton was playing terrible, etc. you just don't know.
Wayy too many "if's" to say with certainty that Melo would have ended up here if we waited.
But O.K., lets go ahead and accept this ****ed up truism people have that Melo's only options were get traded or sign with us. Our 5.8 million bought us last season's worth of Melo and Chauncy Billups. IF we had a healthy squad we have a really good chance at beating Boston. Up until CB and STAT went down we were looking pretty good out there. So that 5.8 mill could have bought us a series win (again if we were healthy, but you guys enjoy using "ifs" so i'ma go with it).
Would our 5.8 million/feltons and co. not be worth the sereis win over the celtics? I thought we were in "Win Now" mode? or are we still biding our time? if there's a trade for Paul that requires we give up shump and fields and douglas + cash would you honestly not do it? I thought we were accumulating talent on our squad so we could compete with Miami, not biding our time as a mediocre playoff team.
If he wanted the money he could just as easily make it with the Nets. If your claim is true and he's only in it for the money, he'd just re-sign there, right?
Why did he tell the nuggets and everyone in the world, "the only team i'll sign with is the knicks", if he was not fighting to join us? You guys act like he's some kind of supervillian that masterminded a fleecing of the knicks talent (when in fact it was a good trade for the knicks). All Melo ever said was: I wanna play with New York on my jersey. He felt he could contribute right away to a winning atmosphere and perhaps lead to some playoff wins. It didn't pan out, but i'm not going to fault the guy for wanting to play with the knicks ASAP.
Well said p0nder
@ponder: nothing changed after the trade, there still were close and bad games, there were players playing terrible etc. We were playing the same basketball before and after the trade. Right after the season I said that I didn't expect anything more than the first round. That's why this season will be so important, our stars and another new pieces had enough time to gel and learn how to play with each other. Now it's up to them, no more excuses, no more blaming teammates, coaching stuff or media. I don't expect the title, to be honest 4th seed and anything more than the 1st round would be enough for me to say: great job. I once said Anthony is overrated and overpaid, that was right after the trade. But now I think he can brings us the title, maybe not this season, but in the future when no more crazy things happen around the Knicks and we're done rebuilding this team. But now it's about time for Carmelo to prove, to convince us he was worth everything or even more than what we gave to land him in New York.
+ few more words about the trade, of course he could resign with the Nets, but their offer didn't meet Nuggets' demands.
Last edited by Lercher; Nov 30, 2011 at 13:47.
It was about the money to him. He told Donnie the Knicks were his first choice but he wanted that extension (i.e. money) and would go with the Nets if we didn't trade for him. I don't blame Donnie for doing what Melo forced him to do. I only blame Melo (and Dolan for meddling). He had all the power. The decision was his alone.
Is that what this was all about? Getting to the playoffs? Half a season of games and make the playoffs (which we would have done regardless)? I thought this was about building a championship contender? And there is no way you can say that his decision didn't make it more difficult to do than if he had waited. We would be championship contenders THIS YEAR if he signed with us right now. Now, we will have to wait another year or two, at least. This team is not as good as many of you think. It needs A LOT of pieces.
And there is the difference between us. I DO fault the guy for demanding he come to the Knicks right away. All he had to do was wait a few months. It was greed, plain and simple. There is no other way to look at it. You can sugar coat it and make excuses for him all you want, but you can't say the Knicks woudn't be better if he had waited and signed with us. This is about the Knicks winning a championship. That's the only thing that matters. His greed made it more difficult for us, much more difficult. And that bothers me.
Melo has a lot to prove to Knick fans. We'll see.
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