FORGET Paul & Howard !!! Build a winner now.

mafra

Legend
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/...-angeles-lakers-want-dwight-howard-chris-paul


BOTH LA teams are making a run to acquire BOTH Chris Paul & Dwight Howard. Both have the asses and cap space to make it happen. Lakers have KOBE & the Clippers have Blake Griffin & Eric Gordon. Add CP3 & DH to either roster, and you have a dominating championship-caliber team.

Not to mention, both are jockeying and competing with each other, play in same arena... And the future belongs to the team that pulls off this blockbuster, NBA-shattering maneuver. In other words, the Knicks don't stand a chance to get either player.

Also consider that Howard wants to play in the sunshine, all either LA team really has to do is trade for Paul... Then sit back and watch Howard sign with them as a free agent next July.

I believe this gives NY 2 options:

- Play the "we'll try to win next year... seriously... trust us" game yet again

or

- Just say screw it, we're going to win right now!

I say forget next year, and preserving cap space. Go make an offer for Nene, DeAndre Jordan or Marc Gasol. Sign a Chuck Hayes.

If we guarantee no-trade clauses, or promise to win-now, we might even convince a J-Crawford or a few other vets to sign here in NYK and make a run at a title.

I'm not sure who else is a free agent next year. BUt I think I would prefer J-Rich & Chuck Hayes or something to waiting for Deron?

Tough call. Not even sure if we could pull off signing a Nene & Hayes this eyar, while adding a Hill? Is it we don't want to dip into next year's cap? Or, is it we really only have X amount anyway... So even if we offered a guy a multi-year deal, using an exemption... would that prevent us from using another vet exemption?

Who knows.

But I'm tired of this waiting game.

We have 2 legit studs. We have Billups. No go get me some beef on the front court, and a SG + a sniper.

Hill, Redd & Nene works for me.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
What good is it to build a team that can't beat the Heat and is one notch below elite? I rather lose the next 2-3 years if it means we end up with an actual elite team capable of winning a title. None of the players you mentioned can get that done IMO.
 

mafra

Legend
MAVS beat the Heat w/ a solid team. They didn't need 3 super stars.

Still, like you mentioned, even given the reality that we probably have no shot at Paul or Howard, it's not like the vets we're chasing w/ 1 year deals are all that terrible.. nor are we passing on a legit player b/c we want to preserve cap space.

I just think a Tyson Chandler, NENE, DeAndre Jordan, Marc Gasol... Well, we should target one of these players.
 

Wargames

Starter
first off the lakers aren't getting dwight and pau. There in the same boat as we were last year either NO or Orlando is gonna take all their assets for their star. Jerry West can't save them this time.

Also I got to agree that line up you posted doesn't get the knicks a ring it just gets them a 4/5 seed annually. Forgive me for saying this but The Knicks FO are being smart (i know oxymoron) to not spend at all this year for a few reasons.

1) You never know a star may take a pay cut to play with two other stars in the 2012 FA.

2) Most the players who are FA are questionable this year and next year really is a much better year player wise. De'Andre showed potential last year, Nene is injury prone, hayes is not the ideal height, J rich last year played just like Fields but was more consistent and may be on the decline. Tyson Chandler and Gasol both want maxes...

3) We all know the knicks may be looking for a new head coach next year if D'antoni doesn't get the team to the second round at least and even if they lose there it has to be a close series. Also if Phil Jackson comes back to coach for NY D'antoni is still gone unless the knicks were in the finals.

So it doesn't make sense to spend money on a personnel now when the whole system may change 2012. everyone knows their dumpster diving but honestly its the best move. If it wasn't the best move trust me the media would be making a million jokes about the knicks for getting garbage players.
 

mafra

Legend
I hope you're right.

I mean, why would NO want a Euro C in return for Paul? Paul for Pau? Gasol is going to be 32 in July. Yikes. He makes a pretty penny as well.

I think any trade LAK make has to include Bynum. This means they only get to make 1 trade.

If the Lakers are smart, the deal Bynum for CP3. Make the move and hope the allure of Hollywood, Kobe & Paul is enough to convince Howard to sign with them next July.

Then again, the threat to deal Bynum to NO might be enough for ORL to act quickly, and pounce on Bynum while they have a shot. Who knows.

I think the Clippers are the wild card here. I know their owner is cheap... But he has been makng moves lately. HIs team desperately wants to take the town over, and push the Lakers back into the trunk of the car.

They have a solid SG in Eric Gordon and a beastly-stud in Blake Griffin. The have Hollywood to offer, and the allure of being an org that has never won... A nice challenge for somebody to help be the guy to change that.

MAINLY, check out the assets LAC possess:

1) Minnesota's 2012 unprotected first round selection.
2) LAC's 2014 1st round pick.
3) Chris Kaman's 12.2 mil expiring contract
4) PG Eric Bledsoe
5) SF Al-Farouq Amini
6) Randy Foye's 4.2 mil expiring contract
7) Ryan Gomes (4 mil this & next year)
8) Willie Warren
9) Restricted free agent DeAndre Jordan
10) Eric Gordon, if necessary

MAN, that's a boatload to work with if you're LAC.

Just Kaman's & Foye's expriing contract works out nicely, if a 3rd team can be brought in the mix... who wants to dump a contract.

MIN's 2012 1st is a lottery pick.

Of course, they would have to part with Gordon if necessary, and convince Jordan to accept a sign-&-trade.

But, LAC could easily gamble here & deal for Paul or Howard. If I were LAC I would trade for Howard. Blake-Howard would be nasty-filthy. Then, you have 2 shots at a PG next year. Even if Paul passes, you always have Deron (who has already stated he wants to play for Howard.

Deron Williams
Eric Gordon
Blake Griffin
Dwight Howard


W-O-W.

Plus, the main reason I would purse Howard, if I ran LAC, would be b/c LAKERS covet his services, and LAK always get the big bad center.

So, in this scenario, and depending what it costs to get Howard, maybe this helps Knicks. I mean, if Clippers snag Howard... I doubt LAK trade for Paul w/out assurance he'll resign there. And why would Paul want to sign on there? Gasol-Odom-Kobe are all old? Who knows though, maybe he would.
 

Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
What good is it to build a team that can't beat the Heat and is one notch below elite? I rather lose the next 2-3 years if it means we end up with an actual elite team capable of winning a title.

I don't get the train of thought.

Why couldn't a team of either Jordan - Nene - Gasol, STAT, Melo, Fields and Billups beat the Heat? With a deep bench that's used effectively, this NYK team could rattle the cage of any team. We saw the severity of Chandler's impact in Dallas, why couldn't it happen here? Sure, we'd need a more veteran, savvy back-court after Billup's inevitable departure, but 2-3 years of downtime is a waste of immediate opportunity.

And why consider this team's capability as a preemptive 2nd round playoff non-hopeful?

Is there any real assurance that in 2-3 years we'll be in a better position than we are now? We've worked for the last 2-3 years to get our 2 stars. Now we have them.

The Knicks' window of opportunity has never been so wide open, but it will shut quickly if we don't wedge it with the right players.

I don't see the point of putting our eggs in yet another basket based around the unforeseeable future again, and wallowing in one year contracts etc in the meantime.

Miami's big 3, as Shaq so bluntly put it, are a big 2.5. We can match a 2.5, but whether or not the Heat have set the standard with Bosh as their 3rd star is still up for evaluation. Sure, they made the finals, but one star teams - Chicago + Orlando - are only one key addition away from real contention. We have our 2, they just need the right condiments to get the right taste.

I think we have the ingredients right now to stir up the East for the first time in over a decade. Add a center, add the right game plan, and we've got something special.
 

Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
MAINLY, check out the assets LAC possess:

1) Minnesota's 2012 unprotected first round selection.
2) LAC's 2014 1st round pick.
3) Chris Kaman's 12.2 mil expiring contract
4) PG Eric Bledsoe
5) SF Al-Farouq Amini
6) Randy Foye's 4.2 mil expiring contract
7) Ryan Gomes (4 mil this & next year)
8) Willie Warren
9) Restricted free agent DeAndre Jordan
10) Eric Gordon, if necessary

MAN, that's a boatload to work with if you're LAC.

I eluded to precisely the same thing. That's a tantalizing package for anyone looking to turn around the franchise in the wake of its best players' departure.

And a lottery pick is like a BJ in these scenarios.

Apparently, the Clippers have kept Eric Gordon out of negotiations without some solid remark from Paul regarding his desire to extend.

The GSW are also favored by the Hornets according to sources. I've come to hate that ****ing word! Sources - vomit:barf:
 

Weissenberg

Grid or Riot
Well, an alternative scenario isn't that bad as some users might think. We have some pool of talent within our hands already. Douglas - great dribbling skills and he is an excellent downtown shooter; you hear just "cha-ching" before you realize you left him an inch too much, money in the bank. He's inconsistent and not responsible enough to become a starter yet, but this is Billups' work to teach that guy how to deliver, avoid turnovers and use the clock. Last but not least, Toney plays DEFENSE.
Shumpert works extremely hard, wise shot selection, fast, quick moves, fun to watch and plays DEFENSE, we could start him at #2.
Carmelo, do I really have to say what are his strenghts? I'd just add: if he wants to - he plays DEFENSE.
Amare - leadership, offensive beast, we all know what he's able to do, he plays very little defense, but hands up, screen and some rebounds - yeah can afford that.
Center - we need an experienced center, our rookies need a teacher, if there's anyone available who's tough enough and rebounds enough sign him for some good money and a multiple years contract, so our rookies can raise.
+ sign some solid role players to create more depth and we're a contender team.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Mafra....I agree with u 100%.... we need to build an Atlantic Division winner
now, that could equally challenge Coach of the year and his MVP Rose (Bulls)
in a 7 game series, by going full speed on Dec. 9th signing two decent FA in
a crowded FA market frenzy.

Putting a bunch of Star-Players on a roster at the same time lead to stars
clashing with each other 8 out of 10 times. This is why David Robinson had
Duncan move into his household, the Boston BIG-3 u always seen together in
public throughout their two offseasons. And Lebron & Wade being each other
shadow since the Lebron-Decision.

After the Melo-trade.... Amare/Melo/Billups/and Dantoni clashed with one
another on who is running this Knicks team. And in the last 8th months of
No Knicks Basketball Amare/Melo/Billups stayed apart in different cities as
if they been teammates on the same team the past 5 years.
 

LeFlume

All Star
Forget The Clippers. No player in their right mind would wanna play for The Clippers. It ain't gonna happen. I know they have some young talent but how many times haven't you seen that?

Every other year people talk about Clippers. They have never been able to keep anybody and I'm sure as soon Blake Griffins rookie contract is up he is outta there. A perennial crap team..
 

portega1968

El Cacique
Forget The Clippers. No player in their right mind would wanna play for The Clippers. It ain't gonna happen. I know they have some young talent but how many times haven't you seen that?

Every other year people talk about Clippers. They have never been able to keep anybody and I'm sure as soon Blake Griffins rookie contract is up he is outta there. A perennial crap team..

If you put up a poll, my vote is for build now and not wait for Howard, Paul or Deron.

But signing the current free agents isnt possible unless we get rid of Chauncey's cap space.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Crazy⑧s;187577 said:
I eluded to precisely the same thing. That's a tantalizing package for anyone looking to turn around the franchise in the wake of its best players' departure.

And a lottery pick is like a BJ in these scenarios.

Apparently, the Clippers have kept Eric Gordon out of negotiations without some solid remark from Paul regarding his desire to extend.

The GSW are also favored by the Hornets according to sources. I've come to hate that ****ing word! Sources - vomit:barf:

That all makes sense except for one thing...

CP3 WON'T sign an extension, he will opt out.

Haven't we been down this road before? Isn't this deja vu?

The purpose of the new CBA and owners stance is they don't want stars deciding where they want to go, and who they want to play with, ala MIA. They feel (rightfully so) that there is no parity, and the big market teams will always win-out. I.e. LAL, BOS, NY etc...

The issue with this to me is that super stars have always sort of dictated where they go sooner or later. That's the result of no trade clauses and player options.

CP3 is a star like all the others. He can decide where he wants to go ultimately. Teams can trade or rent him at the risk he will not resign with them, but in the end Paul will be where he wants, this or next season.
 

Weissenberg

Grid or Riot
We all know Chris wants Knicks, the question is though: do the Knicks want Chris? Has anyone representing our front office ever publicly said: yes, we want to add Chris Paul?
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
I don't mind the idea of trying to win now and therefore getting the pieces we need rather than wait for another star. BUT knowing CP3 wants to come here is soo tempting and very hard to ignore.

Lets not forget even though managment is banned from talking to players currently under contract, there has ALWAYS been communication through back channels. The agent gets the information and relays it to the player and then the player responds to the agent who then goes back to his reliable team source. Unless Stern pays for a major wire tap, there is no way to keep people from talking about contracts.

Melo claims he never talked to CP3 about coming to NY...YEAH SURE we really all believe that one. Melo knows all of CP3's concerns and wants. He also knows what choices CP3 is willing to make for his future. You'll just NEVER hear it from him though. I do believe the organization is aware of it through Melo. This is why I lean toward being financially cautious in anticipation of CP3. That Melo smile just looks like he knows what's up.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
We all know Chris wants Knicks, the question is though: do the Knicks want Chris? Has anyone representing our front office ever publicly said: yes, we want to add Chris Paul?

Knicks are only giving out 1 year deals. Do they REALLY need to come out and say that? C'mon man!

Plus they can't make a comment like that regarding a player currently under contract.
 

Weissenberg

Grid or Riot
Grunwald has never said we're interested only in one year contracts. Our front office didn't mention any free agents we're contacting this offseason. No available player did mention he was in touch with the Knicks lately. This is the problem, a paper jerk writes something claiming he's got the info from his source close to the situation but no one representing the franchise has confirmed the news and still everybody on this board thinks it's true despite the golden rule saying: no confirmation = no news.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Crazy⑧s;187576 said:
I don't get the train of thought.

Why couldn't a team of either Jordan - Nene - Gasol, STAT, Melo, Fields and Billups beat the Heat? With a deep bench that's used effectively, this NYK team could rattle the cage of any team. We saw the severity of Chandler's impact in Dallas, why couldn't it happen here? Sure, we'd need a more veteran, savvy back-court after Billup's inevitable departure, but 2-3 years of downtime is a waste of immediate opportunity.

And why consider this team's capability as a preemptive 2nd round playoff non-hopeful?

Is there any real assurance that in 2-3 years we'll be in a better position than we are now? We've worked for the last 2-3 years to get our 2 stars. Now we have them.

The Knicks' window of opportunity has never been so wide open, but it will shut quickly if we don't wedge it with the right players.

I don't see the point of putting our eggs in yet another basket based around the unforeseeable future again, and wallowing in one year contracts etc in the meantime.

Miami's big 3, as Shaq so bluntly put it, are a big 2.5. We can match a 2.5, but whether or not the Heat have set the standard with Bosh as their 3rd star is still up for evaluation. Sure, they made the finals, but one star teams - Chicago + Orlando - are only one key addition away from real contention. We have our 2, they just need the right condiments to get the right taste.

I think we have the ingredients right now to stir up the East for the first time in over a decade. Add a center, add the right game plan, and we've got something special.

Could they beat the heat? Sure, anything is possible but on paper the Heat would factually have the better team unless a player like Jordan breaks out to be an all-star. Remeber, Billups is old as dirt, had several injuries since the trade and can't be relied on as a long term piece of the puzzle. (yes I went there)

Nothing is guaranteed(except NBA contracts) so what level we will be playing at 2-3 years from now regardless of which path we take is impossible to know. That said, you talk about a process that actually netted us 2 stars as being a bad thing. Yes, I will go through a year of dumpster diving, a year of uncertainty and a year of mediocrity IF it nets us a healthy CP3 to augment and bolster our core of STAT and Melo. Further, it most likely would be half a year at most(trade deadline) but more likely it would happen sooner than later if all the chatter is true about NO looking to avoid the "melodrama".

I don't deny that your philosophy of adding depth to our two stars is a valid thought but I feel you always get the best possible talent first and the rest will fall into place. Simply put, CP3 is THAT good and worth gambling on. Plus, it's not just CP3 but D12 and D. WIll too. I think it's highly unlikely we would strike out on all 3! Since all 3 are elite and fill team needs I believe the prudent move and the one maximizing our chances of putting together a true title contender is to hold out and not blink until we get that 3rd big piece.

If for some reason next season rolls around and we were unable to get CP3, D. Will or D12 than we will have our cap space, amnesty and a year of trade bait development to work with. I fail to see why skipping plan A to go to subpar plan B on purpose is the way to go.
 
MAVS beat the Heat w/ a solid team. They didn't need 3 super stars.

Still, like you mentioned, even given the reality that we probably have no shot at Paul or Howard, it's not like the vets we're chasing w/ 1 year deals are all that terrible.. nor are we passing on a legit player b/c we want to preserve cap space.

I just think a Tyson Chandler, NENE, DeAndre Jordan, Marc Gasol... Well, we should target one of these players.


dude the mavs had Dirk at his highest level

jason terry
kidd
marion
chandler
berea


i dont think you recognize how ridiculously stacked their squad is.
both offensively and defensively
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
dude the mavs had Dirk at his highest level

jason terry
kidd
marion
chandler
berea


i dont think you recognize how ridiculously stacked their squad is.
both offensively and defensively


Plus the Heat helped beat themselves with Lebron's disappearing act. I would not bank on that being the trend. I think the Heat will win multiple titles as sad as it makes us all and our only chance for the next 5-6 years is to put together our own big 3.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
The title of this thread conflicts with basic basketball logic.

Since when does not getting the best player available equate to " winning nmow"??

I could repeat myself yet again on the basic basketball points i have stated over the course of the last few months regarding this issue, but theyve already been put forward in this thread by t r I l l I o n and red.

But I will say this.. Chris Paul wants the Knicks. He doesn't have to re sign anywhere else. The rest is just other teams doing their due diligence. Teams like the lakers n the clippers can't just not make an attempt. But chris paul is in the driver seat. If he doesn't wanna go to the Lakers or the Clippers he won't.

People bring up Deron Williams to new jersey but they forget that Jerry Sloan wanted him shipped out. He didnt like Deron. N the russian owner took a gamble and thinks he can resign him. last I heard deron said 90 percent chance he'll re sign with new jersey. Maybe prok was right. I would not be surprised if howard eventually ends up in brooklyn

Maybe we don't have the best package, but in today's nba that doesn't matter. the star players have serious freedom n options that seem to get minimized and overlooked by writers and a lot of the people on this forum.

Bottom line is if chris paul wants to be a knick he will be.

And getting him via trade absolutely, positively equates to winning now.
 
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