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Thread: THE VERDICT IS IN...(part 3)! Douglas & Fields suck at defense!

  1. #1
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    Nyk Logo THE VERDICT IS IN...(part 3)! Douglas & Fields suck at defense!

    Take a look at the video below.

    Pay attention to Toney Douglas vs Rajon Rondo.

    Yeah I know Rondo is better.

    and I know it's early, defense is a team concept, and we are a work in progress.

    I'm the one who's been calling for defense and a big, like almost everyone else.


    Look at Douglas' and Fields' eyes... where are they? They should be fixed on the opponents torso or waistline.

    See how unsuccessful Douglas is at getting around screens?

    Look at their arms... where are they? they should be spread out feeling for defenders.

    See them flailing about as they lack anticipation of ball movement?

    Look at their feet... what are they doing? They should be on the balls of their feet using quick lateral movement.

    See how slow Fields is on closing out on his man? See how Douglas is back on his heels and his poor technique when retreating? And Fields and Douglas aren't adept at putting a hand in the shooters face because they lack proper fundamentals.

    Notice how Douglas over-commits and neglects his lanes.

    Poor defensive positioning leads to lunging and the arms counterbalancing.

    As you watch, notice Fields' poor foot work. It's appalling. He routinely gets caught out of position, shows poor anticipation and timing, and poor body position-- he f*cking sucks (at defense).


    And yeah, I know he was a contender for ROY. I know he rebounds. I know TD can get hot and score. But we need fundamentally sound guys out here; now more than ever. Not this crap. WTF are the coaches teaching these guys?

    This has to end now!

    I take this **** personally.

    __________________________________________________ _______________


    Now take a look at Gary Payton. Not because I'm comparing the Glove to Douglas (although he could learn a thing or two)...

    but because it's against Michael Jordan (and the Bulls, and homo-ass Rodman) in the Finals!


    Ahhhhh.... those were the days.

    The Glove is all over the court.

    Gets the ball out on the break.

    Great man and help defense.

    Setting players up.

    Backing players down and drawing fouls.


    Finishing at the rim! Something the self-induced flopper Douglas still has trouble with.

    This is fundamentally sound ball.

    Now recall Douglas and Fields. If they cannot do what's needed at the guard position- then they must go. That simple. And I mean from the starting line-up.

    Yeah I know we have no dough.

    Yeah I know we cant have an all-star at every position.

    Yeah I know I already made a "We Now Need A PG More Than Anything" thread.

    Just saying...

    Without a defender in the back-court, our Broadway Bigs don't matter.

    Without a facilitator, our Broadway Bigs don't matter.

    We didn't spend millions, waiting for years, for lackluster, unimpressive, uninspired, look lost, poor fundamentals, Bambi Fields and Toney "I'm a combo-guard stress the combo" Douglas to



    F*CK THIS UP!

    Step it up.

    Maybe it's Shumpert. Maybe it'll be Woodson's tutelage, idk. But someone better teach these guys the fundamentals of defense and the PG position.

    I'm growing impatient with these two, and I have a solid amount of film so save the "they're young" "they need time to gel" bull****.

    End rant.

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    The first few points you raise are just such basic fundamental stuff. They're things that you can teach so I hope Woodson spends some time with Fields and Douglas.

    We also need much better transition defense from our backcourt as well, when you're on offense you still need to know where your opposite number is. Watching the Heat play right now, they'll put 60 points on us just in transition at least if we don't sort it out.

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    Seriously.

    It's one thing if you get beaten by a player simply because he's more athletic than you are, because that'll happen. Can't help it. Some guys are more gifted than others.

    But lack of defensive awareness and fundamentals is something that this team needs to address a lot better. They're not even doing the bare minimum at this point. We still got out-rebounded and it's still pretty disgusting to me that our players don't box out, which is something that you're taught to do in middle school.

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    Here's a fact.... Rondo, Ray, and Pierce chemistry has been the best backcourt
    trio in the NBA since winning the 2008 Championship trophy.
    The Cetics without KG in 2009, the trio-guards took Boston to the 2nd round
    of the postseason.

    Some peeps need to stop comparing headcoach Doc Rivers super-elite
    backcourt guards to.... our 2nd/3rd season guards "TD & Fields".
    Whom to me, have turned out to be acceptionally skilled guards we picked up
    with late round draft picks. We have not had any decent veteran guards on
    the Knicks roster to show these young guards the ropes in the NBA.
    TD & Fields are not Starters. but they are some damn good rotation players.

    So far the Knicks 2010 & 2011 Plan....did not consist of adding starting guards
    or any depth to the Knicks team....

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    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Here's a fact.... Rondo, Ray, and Pierce chemistry has been the best backcourt
    trio in the NBA since winning the 2008 Championship trophy.
    The Cetics without KG in 2009, the trio-guards took Boston to the 2nd round
    of the postseason.

    Some peeps need to stop comparing headcoach Doc Rivers super-elite
    backcourt guards to.... our 2nd/3rd season guards "TD & Fields".
    Whom to me, have turned out to be acceptionally skilled guards we picked up
    with late round draft picks. We have not had any decent veteran guards on
    the Knicks roster to show these young guards the ropes in the NBA.
    TD & Fields are not Starters. but they are some damn good rotation players.

    So far the Knicks 2010 & 2011 Plan....did not consist of adding starting guards
    or any depth to the Knicks team....
    A rare wise Kiyaman post. Agree with everything

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    Yeah.

    This is the choice that we made when we willingly staked our future on building an amazing frontcourt. We knew going into this season that opposing backcourts were going to do a lot of damage to us. The key is figuring out how to limit that in small ways and ensure that we can still compete despite not having great guards.

    I think the key is to have our roleplayers truly embrace that they're just that - roleplayers. Going with that is being able to actually DEFINE the roles these players will play. Is TD our point guard? Is he a scorer off the bench? Is he a defensive specialist? I'm not really sure, and neither is TD himself, and I think the first step to fixing our woes on defense and rebounding is adjusting our gameplan to whatever the answer to that question is.

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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Yeah.

    This is the choice that we made when we willingly staked our future on building an amazing frontcourt. We knew going into this season that opposing backcourts were going to do a lot of damage to us. The key is figuring out how to limit that in small ways and ensure that we can still compete despite not having great guards.

    I think the key is to have our roleplayers truly embrace that they're just that - roleplayers. Going with that is being able to actually DEFINE the roles these players will play. Is TD our point guard? Is he a scorer off the bench? Is he a defensive specialist? I'm not really sure, and neither is TD himself, and I think the first step to fixing our woes on defense and rebounding is adjusting our gameplan to whatever the answer to that question is.
    How about using defensive fundamentals and footwork to stay in front of your man?

    Role players, low draft picks aside, there is no excuse for not knowing how to play defense.

    Its a team concept, but it begins with the individual.

    And TD is a scorer off the bench type. It's sad that a short dude like TD hasn't perfected the craft of playing PG.

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    Red.....your video is really on a laid-back Amare in the middle on defense,
    showing no-effort or defensive-threat.

    Look at Amare & Melo position in the video....now think Gasol & Odom, or
    KG & Pierce, or Bosh & Lebron, or Ibaka & Durant, or Aldridge & Batum, or
    just Duncan. The offense wouldve been tighter with Duncan on the peremeter
    while Melo is steady moving without the ball (less turnovers).
    Our team-defense was so laid-back that it didnt have a plan for getting
    back on defense to defend a fastbreak....coach Woodson have to find a
    remedy where Amare or Melo have to run back to help defend a fastbreak.

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Red.....your video is really on a laid-back Amare in the middle on defense,
    showing no-effort or defensive-threat.

    Look at Amare & Melo position in the video....now think Gasol & Odom, or
    KG & Pierce, or Bosh & Lebron, or Ibaka & Durant, or Aldridge & Batum, or
    just Duncan. The offense wouldve been tighter with Duncan on the peremeter
    while Melo is steady moving without the ball (less turnovers).
    Our team-defense was so laid-back that it didnt have a plan for getting
    back on defense to defend a fastbreak....coach Woodson have to find a
    remedy where Amare or Melo have to run back to help defend a fastbreak.
    I agree they all need to step it up. But that video mostly highlights Rondo. Melo and Amare weren't guarding Rondo, our guards were.

    Defense is a combination of anticipation, reaction, and timing. It starts with the guards. They can do much more than bigs in terms of help defense and thwarting penetration, as well as playing the passing lanes.

    Bigs can block or alter shots, but that's after players are allowed free entrance to the rim. Our stars can hold their own, even if its offensively- they aren't going anywhere.

    Those guards though, with the driving and penetration they allow (for years now), they have nothing to offer, except maybe bench scoring. But the video shows just how poor fundamentally our guards are- and there's no excuse.

    When anyone of them can avg. 20+, then maybe they won't be so heavily scrutinized.

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    with all due respect

    there isnt a point guard or shooting guard in the NBA

    who has the funadamentals or defensive awareness to stop rajon rondo and ray allen lol

    its been this way for a few years now

    allen torched dwayne wade for 28 points last night, does wade suck on defense ?



    the fact is

    when it mattered most our team shut those two down

    which is why we held the celtics to only 17 points in the fourth quarter

    and fields had the unheralded play of the game by stripping the ball with a few seconds left on an open lay up in the fourth.


    its about making plays when they matter

    I am not saying they are great defenders just saying

    you cant sit here and show a video of rondo torching our backcourt
    unless you are going top sit here and show a highlight video of rondo against every team

    the dude does this to every guard who comes at him.

    what surprised me was dantoni's reluctance when jefferies was in the game or with peirce sitting out not putting melo on rondo to force him to shoot from deep

    i blame it more on the coaching than i do the players.

    thanks

    im out

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    Originally Posted by DontForgetDerekHarper
    with all due respect

    there isnt a point guard or shooting guard in the NBA

    who has the funadamentals or defensive awareness to stop rajon rondo and ray allen lol

    its been this way for a few years now

    allen torched dwayne wade for 28 points last night, does wade suck on defense ?



    the fact is

    when it mattered most our team shut those two down

    which is why we held the celtics to only 17 points in the fourth quarter

    and fields had the unheralded play of the game by stripping the ball with a few seconds left on an open lay up in the fourth.


    its about making plays when they matter

    I am not saying they are great defenders just saying

    you cant sit here and show a video of rondo torching our backcourt
    unless you are going top sit here and show a highlight video of rondo against every team

    the dude does this to every guard who comes at him.

    what surprised me was dantoni's reluctance when jefferies was in the game or with peirce sitting out not putting melo on rondo to force him to shoot from deep

    i blame it more on the coaching than i do the players.

    thanks

    im out
    agreed..

    first off. with rondo... u have to put a long defender on him.. like a balkman... not sure why we didnt do it...

    the strategy against rondo is to go under the screen because if you go over the sceen... he almost guaranteed a layup or an assist...the problem with our last game was rondo was hitting the jumpshot... if rondo had a jimmy and shot freethrows well.. he would argueable be the best pg in the game

    u have to stop him from getting other players involved..

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    Originally Posted by DontForgetDerekHarper
    with all due respect

    there isnt a point guard or shooting guard in the NBA

    who has the funadamentals or defensive awareness to stop rajon rondo and ray allen lol

    its been this way for a few years now

    allen torched dwayne wade for 28 points last night, does wade suck on defense ?



    the fact is

    when it mattered most our team shut those two down

    which is why we held the celtics to only 17 points in the fourth quarter

    and fields had the unheralded play of the game by stripping the ball with a few seconds left on an open lay up in the fourth.


    its about making plays when they matter

    I am not saying they are great defenders just saying

    you cant sit here and show a video of rondo torching our backcourt
    unless you are going top sit here and show a highlight video of rondo against every team

    the dude does this to every guard who comes at him.

    what surprised me was dantoni's reluctance when jefferies was in the game or with peirce sitting out not putting melo on rondo to force him to shoot from deep

    i blame it more on the coaching than i do the players.

    thanks

    im out
    Originally Posted by moneyg
    agreed..

    first off. with rondo... u have to put a long defender on him.. like a balkman... not sure why we didnt do it...

    the strategy against rondo is to go under the screen because if you go over the sceen... he almost guaranteed a layup or an assist...the problem with our last game was rondo was hitting the jumpshot... if rondo had a jimmy and shot freethrows well.. he would argueable be the best pg in the game

    u have to stop him from getting other players involved..
    Are you guys saying they can't step up their intensity? Is this the best they can do?

    What about the poor fundamentals?

    This video is to showcase our guards poor defensive principles, not how good Rondo is.

    I make the distinction between player A (Rondo) being good/great, and players B & C (TD and Fields) lacking fundamentals.

    The two phenomena are independent. Rondo doing what he does, successful or not, should not in any way preclude these two from showing sound defensive tactics.

    That's the point. Yeah I agree, no player can give 100% all the time. There are some moments when the game hangs in the balance.

    But guard after guard, slasher after slasher, shooter after shooter have exposed these two.

    I hate when the answer to poor performance is contributed to better performance, as if the trained eye can't tell the difference. Rondo's performance matters not.

    Use sound fundamentals, THEN tell me about how good and nullified a player made you.

    If we have championship aspiriations... this cannot continue, because the post-season is full of Rondos!

    Rondo, Nelson, Rose, Paul, Parker, Kidd, etc...

    In basketball- there are offensive techniques used to minimize mistakes, take advantage, and accentuate the positives, as well as defensive techniques to do the same.

    Those PG's above have mastered those techniques, to contain them, one must use sound defensive techniques.

    Fields and TD don't!

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    Defensive fundamentals can be taught, but the best defenders do it naturally. I think the Knicks problems are in their transition. On offense, they move around a lot and fast, which in many cases the open player will take the shot…often leaving the rest of the team surprised, off balance and out of position for defense. Woodson needs to coach positioning and reading picks. For some strange reason the Knicks is still doing a lot of double teaming while their teammates fail to rotate and/or collapse to the basket.

    I think the way the offense runs is affecting their defense. If we can slow down the offense, I’m sure they will pick up the intensity on the other end. We have proven offensive players (now) that can even make their own shot…so we don’t really need to play this up tempo offense. Our energy should be used for the “D”.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    But guard after guard, slasher after slasher, shooter after shooter have exposed these two.
    Wasn't that the first game of the season?

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    Originally Posted by Real NY Baller
    Defensive fundamentals can be taught, but the best defenders do it naturally. I think the Knicks problems are in their transition. On offense, they move around a lot and fast, which in many cases the open player will take the shot…often leaving the rest of the team surprised, off balance and out of position for defense. Woodson needs to coach positioning and reading picks. For some strange reason the Knicks is still doing a lot of double teaming while their teammates fail to rotate and/or collapse to the basket.

    I think the way the offense runs is affecting their defense. If we can slow down the offense, I’m sure they will pick up the intensity on the other end. We have proven offensive players (now) that can even make their own shot…so we don’t really need to play this up tempo offense. Our energy should be used for the “D”.
    Good points! Then you have guys like Fields that crash the offensive boards often where he forgets his man is going out on the break. Opening up fast break opportunities for the other team.

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