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Thread: THE VERDICT IS IN...(part 3)! Douglas & Fields suck at defense!

  1. #16
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    Indeed. Fields gambles a lot on the offensive end with regards to rebounding, but that leads to a lot of bad defense in transition. It's part of how Rondo burned us so bad this weekend.

  2. #17
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pat
    Wasn't that the first game of the season?
    No, because this has been going on since last season.

  3. #18
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    I think asking Toney to run the point hurts the rest of his game. He is like a fish out water doing so. I hope either Davis or Lin works out.

  4. #19
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    So, Red, as I was walking and looking for things to buy in ShopRite today, I was thinking about Felton when he was on the Knicks for some reason. This is a guy who was a borderline/was an All-Star for a couple of months. Yes, the system, and minutes he got, thanks to D'Antoni, might have lessened his play (same thing happened with Duhon, though Duhon never returned to being solid), but even when Felton was playing in the Playoffs with the Nuggets he didn't get back into the groove, and he's a veteran who was in the Playoffs the year before.

    Is Felton just not that good? I dunno, I like him, and would welcome him back to New York. My point is, even good veterans struggle like this, so give the sophmore Fields a chance. Douglas? I'm more critical of him because I don't like the way he plays a lot, which could be partly because D'Antoni put him at the point many times, and still is.

    We got a few weeks 'till Baron comes back, let Fields try to find something for himself and with the starters. If he's not playing that well by the time Baron comes back, then maybe Baron's passing will elevate him to his good form. Sure, Fields and the team have the high expectations now you spoke of, but with the passing ability Davis has, Fields might get back into the groove with his off the ball play forming a nice duo and instilling better play around.

    Swag, confidence, etc. shouldn't be the factor of who starts in this scenario. Look at how many guys who played with no conscience and sucked because of it.

  5. #20
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    TD is a **** version of Gilbert Arenas if you ask me, not capable of being a floor general a la Billups but can score when in a rhythm.

  6. #21
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    Originally Posted by RunningJumper
    So, Red, as I was walking and looking for things to buy in ShopRite today, I was thinking about Felton when he was on the Knicks for some reason. This is a guy who was a borderline/was an All-Star for a couple of months. Yes, the system, and minutes he got, thanks to D'Antoni, might have lessened his play (same thing happened with Duhon, though Duhon never returned to being solid), but even when Felton was playing in the Playoffs with the Nuggets he didn't get back into the groove, and he's a veteran who was in the Playoffs the year before.

    Is Felton just not that good? I dunno, I like him, and would welcome him back to New York. My point is, even good veterans struggle like this, so give the sophmore Fields a chance. Douglas? I'm more critical of him because I don't like the way he plays a lot, which could be partly because D'Antoni put him at the point many times, and still is.

    We got a few weeks 'till Baron comes back, let Fields try to find something for himself and with the starters. If he's not playing that well by the time Baron comes back, then maybe Baron's passing will elevate him to his good form. Sure, Fields and the team have the high expectations now you spoke of, but with the passing ability Davis has, Fields might get back into the groove with his off the ball play forming a nice duo and instilling better play around.

    Swag, confidence, etc. shouldn't be the factor of who starts in this scenario. Look at how many guys who played with no conscience and sucked because of it.
    I agree, obviously players have slumps or lulls. But notice, when we or most people evaluate players (Felton or Duhon), they rate the players based on their offense. Offense is valued more in this league of entertainment by most fans and media alike.

    For example, say Felton (or anyone) produced 15 & 8 while he was streaking with us... those numbers might warrant an all-star bid than compared to say less than 5 points but with 5 steals and 10 rebounds. Why? Because rebounds coming from a guard are NOT valued. Points in the NBA always have value, but defensive stats are usually mentioned second.

    But let me just say what my deal with these players and most is:

    At some point you, me, everyone will need to form an opinion on a player. Scouting his talents, mental ability, etc... analyzing this in relation to the team make-up and philosophy is what professionals and amateurs do.

    The difference is we all take different times and approaches to come to conclusions. Not to toot my horn, but I feel my ability to evaluate talent and analyzing the fit is quicker than most. I don't need years of a body of work. Some do.

    I realize players change and can get better or worse, nothing is set in stone. What I've seen from TD and Fields is something that can't be explained by "struggling" or "losing" something, as you say. Know why?

    Simply because in my analysis of the Knicks- it's obvious our defense needs to change for the better. Not scoring. Not personnel. Not coaching.

    We have debated those issues and theories to no end... remember? And while I feel the coach and philosophy play a part, I can't even blame MOA nor his system for what I've seen. It's so basic that no other excuse or reason will due. Scheme, lulls or struggles, team make-up... none can explain why these two players show poor defensive fundamentals.

    There is only one logical explanation. Fields and Douglas can't be relied upon for defense, therefore can't be looked at as starters due to NOT having what's needed, thus I conclude this because they simply can't play defense. They don't know how. They suck.

    Sure, maybe Landry can find his niche. Maybe he wins us a game by hitting a shot. Same goes for TD. But those are offensive influences. And I think we can agree offense isn't the problem. We mind as well just watch the defensive parts of games for these two because they cannot add (out of necessity) to what we already can do, and thats score. I can't say their offensive skills really even matter. 6th men maybe, but for starters, doesn't even matter.

    What matters, is this team is in serious need of defense. Defense begins out on the perimeter. They have been thrust into starting roles. The demand for them is defense. Simple.

    So I look intently at their defense, in various situations (one on one, transition, help, passing lanes, etc...) and they fail! Fail in terms of NOT contributing to US being better. Isn't that the goal? Isn't it obvious thats what we need? Well then the criteria has changed, and these two like many other out of position players, based on their defense, do not belong in the starting line-up.

    Thinking they can "find" or "not struggle" to play defense won't work. They're not hurt. They know we suck on D. No reason besides they can't do it can be conjured up.

  7. #22
    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Oh, definitely, I agree, our starting line-up's problems isn't scoring. Though, Fields IQ and off the ball play would help Amar'e and Melo out, making them better passers and smoothing the offense.

    But yeah, outside of Melo and Amar'e, who obviously should put the effort in on defense, we need Chandler to get solid defensive help. Just because we found the man in the middle we were looking for doesn't mean he can't get hurt, especially if he's the only guy taking hits because of his defense.

    All we need is one good defender other than Chandler in the starting line-up. The other three just need to put the effort in. Do we have that guy though? Shumpert is unproven, and, well, he's injured. We might have to go with the best offensive line-up without Shumpert.

    But! today's a new day, and the second game of the season, after not much training camp. Let's see what they got. Because of you, I'm gonna play close attention to Douglas and Fields' defense.

    Come on Douglas, where'd that defensive fire go? Get it done.

  8. #23
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    Hopefully, Lin turns out to be a poor man's Rubio. That wouldn't be bad. I have bizarrely high hopes for Lin. Idk why, but I have this inexplainable suspicion it could be the perfect player coming into the perfect spot with the perfect coach. Anyway....

    This can't be understated:

    *Toney Douglas is *NOT* a point guard. Toney Douglas is at best a starting shooting guard, and likely a defensively pesky, spark of a combo guard off the bench. JJ Barea, if we were to strike absolute gold.

    Why did anyone ever except him to be an actual point guard? Because he had some games where he racked up some assists? A point guard that does not make.

    Forcing Douglas to emulate a point guard is like trying to put a rectangle into a square -- it's awkward, won't work, and if the piece does fit in it's going to be mangled.

    We may be so thin at point guard that MDA is relegated to giving Douglas some hail mary shots at playing point for us, but make no mistake, there is no other reason he is getting that shot.

    The "Toney Douglas Can Be Our Starting Point Guard!!!!" insanity started when we were seriously courting Lebron, and we convinced ourselves Toney would be a great PG for Lebron because he would spread the floor, play D, etcetc.

    Of course, even if that was true, it would be true because Lebron essentially would have been/is a Magic 2.0, and been closer to a true PG than even a "Point Forward".

    We will prolly see more of Bibby when we play fellow PG's who won't just run that guy over. I can't imagine what Rondo would have done to Bibby.

    We can win it all this year with a healthy Baron; and going forward we can keep contending if we find a savvy pickup with our MLE at point.

  9. #24
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    Toney Douglas is like a rich man's JJ Barea but a poor man's Jason Terry.

    I agree with everything Yugh said.

  10. #25
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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Hopefully, Lin turns out to be a poor man's Rubio. That wouldn't be bad. I have bizarrely high hopes for Lin. Idk why, but I have this inexplainable suspicion it could be the perfect player coming into the perfect spot with the perfect coach.
    I was thinking the same thing. Maybe this (out of freaken nowhere pickup) will light a flame under both TD and Landry.

  11. #26
    Veteran Wargames's Avatar
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    the only good note was this wasn't a TNT game because we would have to hear barkley and Shaq (can anyone understand deep voiced Shaq half the time) crap on the knicks for 40 minutes.....

  12. #27
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    Default Douglas is a NYC turnstyle!!

    You can only teach defense If you believe in it..Mike doesn't ever EVER sit somebody down for a wild shot..So concept of sitting someone down for not playing defense is a fantasy...Last Night loss was based on no rhythm on offense and can't defend perimeter 2 guards with speed..but You can't teach something you don't believe in..If that was the case they would've try to sign Deshawn Stevenson (knuckle Head) but plays defense and not old ass Bibby..but that this coach major issue he still think he has an offense

  13. #28
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    All of a sudden we are relying on LIN as our possible PG.

    Got to love the Knicks fans........

    Talk about desperation.......

    Who needs a PG when the game plan is 5 guys standing around the perimiter and passing it back and forth....

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