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Thread: Fire D'Antoni

  1. #46
    Superstar johnstarky's Avatar
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    The thing I worry about the most is that Mike D'antoni could earn himself a multi year contract extension by coaching the Knicks to a sub five hundred record and coaching the Knicks to do what most of those 90's Knick teams did which is get eliminated in the second round of the playoffs.This team was suppose to at least make some noise in the playoffs last season not pick up where they left off when they got swept by the Nets in the 2003-04 NBA playoffs.

    Mike D'antoni cannot coach a team without Steve Nash.He doesn't have the track record to do so. You switch the coach of any elite team in the NBA with Mike D'antoni and that team would finish in the standings with at least 10 to 15 fewer wins.The Suns did the right thing by letting this guy walk away and the Bulls dodged a bullet when the Knicks signed him.I couldn't see why any team would want to hire this guy unless that team had Steve Nash on it.

    It always boggles my mind when I think about how unfairly Larry Brown was treated by the Knicks' front office even with a hall of fame track record and how Mike D'antoni has been excused for the past 3 years for doing nothing but failing.Allowing this man to stick around for much longer could be detrimental to this team and to this organization.

    I'm sick of the excuses that some Knick fans come up with whenever Mike D'antoni's coaching receives heavy criticism.Finshing every season as one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA, having an overall record of 104-145 as Knicks head coach, not being able to coach a team with superstars to an elite level, coaching every player on the roster to live on the perimeter, leaving players who could have an impact on this team to dry on the bench, not being able to make the right in game adjusments, getting swept in the first round of the playoffs, getting embarrassed on national tv and losing to pathetic teams that lack their star players is more valid evidence than when people blame D'antoni's failures on Jim Dolan, the constant roster changes, the lack of time to prove himself, the lack of superstars and the lack of a true pg.Enough is enough with this guy.He should have been fired after last season.And please don't give me the argument that D'antoni is the best coach for this team due to there not being a better coach out there to replace him.I've heard that same argument for years.
    Last edited by johnstarky; Dec 30, 2011 at 11:49.

  2. #47
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    If Riley was our coach a lot of things would be different, if I had wheels I'd be a car - but I'm not and we don't have Pat Riley.

    Everyone forgets it took Felton a while to become more consistent with STAT - and with Douglas, a MUCH worse PG than Felton, I imagine it might take longer.

    I am not saying MDA needs to keep his job at the end of the season, but can we wait until the season is more than a week old before we go hitting the panic button? Again: we are 1-2 with 2 road games - 2 road games where, BTW, we held the opponents in check defensively. The problem is the offense, where STAT has struggled and we are down to Toney Douglas and Mike effing Bibby to run the point.

    Fischer may not be the best PG in the world, but he had chemistry with his guys and was a veteran leader. Douglas is not those things - it's apples and oranges in my mind.
    I hear you but i don't think you understand the point. Yes it took Felton a while to build chemistry and yes its only 3 games in but we're not even seeing failure by trying. At least with Felton we saw him try to play with STAT but the timing was just off. Currently, we don't even run plays to see if they work or not!

    Knicks fans have always been about effort. If you show us that then we can tolerate a little losing. This team so far has not adjusted to the stagnant offense. Let Douglas drive to the basket and fail... It's OKAY as long as we see something being applied. Stopping at the 3 point line and passiong it off is not going to cut it! TD will never be a true PG but you can still have him run plays. We watched them do it in the televised practice and online videos for gods sake.

    Its all about effort! I'd rather them make adjustments and fail than not do anything at all. That's all on the coach and if not then he's lost the team. These guys (sans Shump, Jordan & Jorts) have enough NBA games under their belt to understand they need to adjust their playing style. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in some of these guys homes to hear what they really have to say about this.

  3. #48
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    I hear you but i don't think you understand the point. Yes it took Felton a while to build chemistry and yes its only 3 games in but we're not even seeing failure by trying. At least with Felton we saw him try to play with STAT but the timing was just off. Currently, we don't even run plays to see if they work or not!

    Knicks fans have always been about effort. If you show us that then we can tolerate a little losing. This team so far has not adjusted to the stagnant offense. Let Douglas drive to the basket and fail... It's OKAY as long as we see something being applied. Stopping at the 3 point line and passiong it off is not going to cut it! TD will never be a true PG but you can still have him run plays. We watched them do it in the televised practice and online videos for gods sake.

    Its all about effort! I'd rather them make adjustments and fail than not do anything at all. That's all on the coach and if not then he's lost the team. These guys (sans Shump, Jordan & Jorts) have enough NBA games under their belt to understand they need to adjust their playing style. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in some of these guys homes to hear what they really have to say about this.
    Watching Toney Douglas drive to the basket and fail is NOT okay with me.

    The Knicks' best chance at winning right now is to let STAT and Melo try to dominate the ball b/c quite simply we lack a PG that has ever showed the ability to effectively distribute the ball. I hate those plays, but if TD was driving to the hoop and failing and we lost against GSW and LAL this thread would still exist, and people would be saying "Why not get the ball to Melo and STAT and let them work on the outside? FIRE D'ANTONI!"

  4. #49
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    Originally Posted by johnstarky
    The thing I worry about the most is that Mike D'antoni could earn himself a multi year contract extension by coaching the Knicks to a sub five hundred record and coaching the Knicks to do what most of those 90's Knick teams did which is get eliminated in the second round of the playoffs.This team was suppose to at least make some noise in the playoffs last season not pick up where they left off when they got swept by the Nets in the 2003-04 NBA playoffs.

    Mike D'antoni cannot coach a team without Steve Nash.He doesn't have the track record to do so. You switch the coach of any elite team in the NBA with Mike D'antoni and that team would finish in the standings with at least 10 to 15 fewer wins.The Suns did the right thing by letting this guy walk away and the Bulls dodged a bullet when the Knicks signed him.I couldn't see why any team would want to hire this guy unless that team had Steve Nash on it.

    It always boggles my mind when I think about how unfairly Larry Brown was treated by the Knicks' front office even with a hall of fame track record and how Mike D'antoni has been excused for the past 3 years for doing nothing but failing.Allowing this man to stick around for much longer could be detrimental to this team and to this organization.

    I'm sick of the excuses that some Knick fans come up with whenever Mike D'antoni's coaching receives heavy criticism.Finshing every season as one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA, having an overall record of 104-145 as Knicks head coach, not being able to coach a team with superstars to an elite level, coaching every player on the roster to live on the perimeter, leaving players who could have an impact on this team to dry on the bench, not being able to make the right in game adjusments, getting swept in the first round of the playoffs, getting embarrassed on national tv and losing to pathetic teams that lack their star players is more valid evidence than when people blame D'antoni's failures on Jim Dolan, the constant roster changes, the lack of time to prove himself, the lack of superstars and the lack of a true pg.Enough is enough with this guy.He should have been fired after last season.And please don't give me the argument that D'antoni is the best coach for this team due to there not being a better coach out there to replace him.I've heard that same argument for years.



    ahhh, John Starky speaking the truth, keeping the third Fire D'Antoni thread alive! cheers!

  5. #50
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TR1LL10N
    Our roster has changed and we have moved from rebuilding to trying to compete. All my points over the years have been valid and had we kept an MDA type roster I would be calling for time for this team to gel. BTW, I stated this last year so simmer down.
    "Why so serious"? "Let's see if we can put a smile on that face"!

    Yep, you did leave yourself an out. You said you didn't think this was a MOA roster, and if we continue to struggle or acquire MOA type players, you don't think MOA was the right guy for the job.

    All I've said for years now is that 1) there is no MOA type roster that can overcome his systems limitations, 2) it wasn't the players as much as it was the coach.

    When I think about it- the counter arguments offered toward my observations were all hypothetical illogicalities. Why?

    Simply because any "losing" coach could say hypothetically if we had (insert name here) things would be different. That stance holds no water- its just overstating the obvious and ignoring the true facts of the matter.

    The facts are coaches have to deal with not having every specific player they want all the time. That in no way excuses them from poor designs.

    Those excuses were convenient, because our roster lacked "stars". All we had was a 20 & 10 guy in Zebo, a PG who was right up there in assists with ability to drive to the hole, a myriad of big bodies over the years, an owner willing to spend, and some young unproven solid players that were destined to shine without Mike D'antoni. That's all.

    But everyone kept saying we needed more, we needed more. Because of course more players would negate the fact that players who surround the perimeter can't get rebounds, especially when they don't box out... of course.

    Or with all-world, all-NBA defenders, when we switch, don't close out, and have more mismatches than we can handle, they would have negated those poor tendencies. Jut like in PHX where they were stalwarts!

    I hope everyone see's now how ridiculous those arguments were, how poor coaching superceded talent, and how they never could explain the egregious errors on display for years.

    Give MOA a try... fine. But don't think that when he tries and fails it was for any other reason than Steve Nash made MOA- MOA is unable to make a Steve Nash, you stand corrected.

    Once we wash our hands of this overrated flawed coach, and really instill proper fundamentals, it will feel like a car has been lifted off our chests.

  6. #51
    Superstar johnstarky's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CoolClyde


    ahhh, John Starky speaking the truth, keeping the third Fire D'Antoni thread alive! cheers!
    Thanks, CoolClyde!

  7. #52
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    I don't have a gripe with D'Antoni's system.

    I have a gripe with the lack of the following:

    Boxing out
    Staying on your guy
    Proper defensive rotations
    Proper substitutions (Bibby and TD at the same time? Makes real sense when Kobe's on the floor)
    An offensive gameplan
    Ball movement
    ****ing ANYTHING on offense at this point

  8. #53
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    To support Trillion's argument - the argument I agree the most with here:

    Honesty, I can’t figure out why so many Knicks fans hate D’Antoni other than they may be wildly overrating our current personnel and not understanding that we still have some holes in the team (along with injuries) that are not his fault.

    IMHO, the only legitimate question mark is whether the current personnel matches the coach.

    D’Antoni made his reputation maximizing offensive efficiency by running and shooting early in the shock clock before defenses were ready (statistically demonstrated to be a good idea), creating mismatches on offense, and running the P&R with a big man surrounded by all very good outside shooters to create space.

    1. I love Tyson Chandler, but he doesn’t really play into that system because he clogs the middle and makes it tougher for Amare to work inside.

    2. Amare’s value comes from finishing at the rim. In the D’Antoni system he’s more of a C that can take advantage of bigger slower legit Cs and blow past them. Playing C, he needs a very good defensive and rebounding PF next to him (like Matrix). As a PF, he is covered by quicker PFs that he has a tougher time blowing past. They are also more willing to come outside to defend him. He turns into more of a jump shooter where he’s only an average offensive weapon.

    3. Melo is more of a ball stopper and ISO player than passer and runner. He has good passing skills, but he’s a little careless. Running the offense through him is going to cause more TOs because of the carelessness, but either way, a ball stopper is not ideal for D’Antoni.

    Each of these guys has important skills, but they don’t exactly mesh together well or fit into D’Antoni’s traditional offense. That goes double when you also don’t have a high level PG running the break, making plays, and having some expertise in the P&R.

    To be honest, I think D’Antoni was against the Melo trade (at least off the record) because he saw some of these issues right from the start. The combination of Melo and Amare then forced the need for Chandler for defensive purposes. That further disrupted what he was trying to build before that trade.

    The challenge for D’Antoni is going to be to adjust his system, but to also get these players to focus on the things they are good at. We don’t want Amare shooting jumpers and we don’t want Amare and Melo getting 9 TOs a night between them because of the way they are playing.

    If he can’t figure it out after 15-20 games when the team is healthy, then there might be a reason to suspect he’s a good coach, but not a good coach for these players. But until then, I still think this team is going to win 38-40 games.
    I can only agree that the current set up does not match what MDA wants to do offensively...I still think without a PG we suffer and with Woodson at HC we are an even worse team.

  9. #54
    Nein, Mann! Lercher's Avatar
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    @KBlack25: c'mon even Douglas can run P&R or P&F, everyone who ever played point guard can do it... Toney would probably mostly fail trying to reach Amare, but it's still better than little movement behind the arch and tons of dumb shots. Bibby ran plays during his time with the Heat, are you people saying he forgot how to play point guard? It's all about D'Antoni who doesn't call plays, even the most simple ones, c'mon me and my friends even without a coach are running more plays than the Knicks last night. And there was no adjustment in the game time, when Brown was yelling at his guys and calling for plays Pringles just looked like a disgusted Knick fan who can't do anything.

  10. #55
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dzwonsson
    @KBlack25: c'mon even Douglas can run P&R or P&F, everyone who ever played point guard can do it... Toney would probably mostly fail trying to reach Amare, but it's still better than little movement behind the arch and tons of dumb shots. Bibby ran plays during his time with the Heat, are you people saying he forgot how to play point guard? It's all about D'Antoni who doesn't call plays, even the most simple ones, c'mon me and my friends even without a coach are running more plays than the Knicks last night. And there was no adjustment in the game time, when Brown was yelling at his guys and calling for plays Pringles just looked like a disgusted Knick fan who can't do anything.
    You and I disagree vehemently on Douglas' skills.

    And, if, as you claim, Douglas mostly failed to run the plays like pick and roll we would be having this same conversation, about how MDA didn't adjust and let Melo take it off the ball.

    You said MDA didn't call the plays, but when Felton was here we ran the pick-and-roll non-stop. Something has changed, mostly the roster turnover, as I don't think MDA forgot the pick and roll play either...

  11. #56
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    I don't have a gripe with D'Antoni's system.

    I have a gripe with the lack of the following:

    Boxing out
    Staying on your guy
    Proper defensive rotations
    Proper substitutions (Bibby and TD at the same time? Makes real sense when Kobe's on the floor)
    An offensive gameplan
    Ball movement
    ****ing ANYTHING on offense at this point
    But the problems you have are the result of the system. Hello?



    Originally Posted by KBlack25
    To support Trillion's argument - the argument I agree the most with here:



    I can only agree that the current set up does not match what MDA wants to do offensively...I still think without a PG we suffer and with Woodson at HC we are an even worse team.
    Right.

    Because with the right players... the defensive and other ancillary dificiencies would not be so.

    Wow... thanks for the laugh.

  12. #57
    Veteran KBlack25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Right.

    Because with the right players... the defensive and other ancillary dificiencies would not be so.

    Wow... thanks for the laugh.
    Well the defensive deficiencies will be there.

    No coach is going to make Landry Fields quicker laterally. No coach is going to somehow manage to keep Tyson Chandler out of foul trouble and prevent him from getting Techs as he has this year. No coach has had success making Melo or STAT try defensively.

    But offensively I don't think we can do what MDA wants us to do and that's the big issue.

  13. #58
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    Thumbs up

    Keep in mind one reason D'antoni was tolerated was

    1. Donnie Walsh is a classy guy who admitted he signed Mike D to a team that ruined his winning record o purpose

    2. D'antoni has connections around the league and is well liked by players due to his passive approach to coaching "Let's Go, Let's Go"

    3. He is going to get paid this year regardless if he is coaching or not so he may as well earn that money.

    I don't think Mike Woodson should take his job, but the MSg and Dolan are at their core suckers for nepotism, so who knows.

    Also I will be honest here D'antoni hasn't caught a fair shake. He never had a full camp and the Knicks changed their roster again. Arguably the best guards he has are injured and even that argument is theorem based because Baron is brand new and shumpert got injured game 1.

    However at the end of the day as a head coach he should adapt, motivate, and strategize around these handicaps and have his team not perform poorly by having Stat shoot like he is Dirk, or Melo post players up to get a better shot.

    Even Reggie Miller noted that the knicks should run simple plays at the minimum over the run and gunning they did yesterday.

  14. #59
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    Reggie Miller specifically asked "What brand of basketball is this?"

    He had a point.

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    And then you compound our woes on offense with our **** defense.

    I mean, think about it. How many times yesterday did the Lakers beat us with the old "Drive to the basket to lure away the help defense and then pass to an open 3-point shooter on the wing" ****? Why is it that every single time someone drives to the basket on the other team it seems like our entire team abandons their defensive assignments? The hell is this team thinking?

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