I need to confess something, we blew it for the ages.
I've been too optimistic latey. Time for a change up. Long time readers on this site remember metrocard for being too hard on management. Well its time to keep it 100% metrocard.
I want to assess two big transactions we did the past year.
A. the Carmelo Anthony trade
B. Tyson Chandler signing.
A. I've been alarmed about the Melo trade considered how many good players we gave up to get him.
This is the most important thing here. I truely believe Danilo Gallinari is the most misunderstood NBA player today. People see this guy and just think of a tall ass Kyler Korver. But that isn't Danilo.
Today, Danilo and Aaron Affalo shut down Kobe Bryant, one of the greatest scorers in the history of basketball. Kobe shot 6-28. The previous game Kobe went 6 - 18 I did take time to watch this game and Danilo has totally matured since his rookie season in the NBA. Gallinari right now is a GOOD defender. B level defender. He's been playing good defense for Denver. Gallinari has also been streaky to, but many young players are.
Carmelo is the superior player and scorer, but Gallinari was all around too valuable to let go like that. This isn't a diss to Carmelo, he's great...especially when he tries on defense. But theres some trades that work out and some don't...Carmelo Anthony name looks great on paper, but we really shredded our prospects and went from being one of the deepest teams in the NBA to a really weak bench.
Don't you think we would of stand stronger against Boston in the playoffs if we had more healthy weapons? Amare was hurt, and Billups wasn't 100%. Kudos to Melo and his amazing performance...but this is a situation where depth is important. Thats playoff basketball for you folks. This is why Dallas > Miami Heat in 2011. This is why the Spurs have been elite for over a decade. A quality all around deep team will get you to the promise land. A lot of people really chugged the kool-aid on this 3-Superstars-to-Success method
Chandler, Mosgov, Gallinari are NBA starters...all quality players...all players can play defense and have specialties on offense...young players too and most important homegrown.
This Denver-Knicks trade will always kill me. It makes zero sense. We already had 3 young quality small forwards. The SF position wasn't a problem. It's like having a well rounded meal for breakfast...you got your egg whites, you got your toasted bagel...you got your muscle milk....but then you trade that away for a calorie overload at McDonalds breakfast.
Just like all the Isiah Thomas transactions, this trade was unnecessary.
If we were going to trade our top prospects for someone it should of been Chris Paul or Deron Williams.
B. Am I the only guy in the planet who believes Tyson Chandler isn't worth 14 million a year? Chris Paul makes around that amount of money and he's an elite player. Chandler isn't a top 50 NBA player, period. Never was and never will be.
No QUESTION Chandler's size, length, presence, defensive ability are tremendous assets that gives us a quality center. But for 14 million a year puts us in a desperate position in acquire more quality players to surround this team around Amare and Melo.
It was just a terrible signing in my opinion. Especially since we have a coach who won't utilized Chandler's defensive attributes and it'll just confuse the offense and create traffic with a big body standing under the hoop waiting for someone to lob it to Chandler but our best passer on the team is Carmelo who's jacking up shots since no one can't create their own shots so no lobs for Chandler. I apologize for the massive run on sentence but I'm sure that made sense.
Amare/Chandler offensively will be a disaster. Amare was successful last year because of his inside and outside game he mixed up so well. He had enough space to utilize his footwork and post moves. When you make the court smaller for a big man, it becomes more challenging to score. This will never be fixed unless Amare becomes Dirk Nowitzki and can spread the floor and do all that cool stuff Dirk does.
Disagree, agree. This is how I just feel about the whole situation. Knicks problem's will be repeated and unsolved. We don't have a coach who handles adversity well, and our players are not all around and able on both sides ofthe courts like our roster we started with in 2010. We will be a mediocre team. **** your hope and your optimism.
The thing with Chandler though, is getting where we need to be with him on our roster, even with that contract, and getting vet. minimum PGs (Davis) and other players, is a much easier task than if we got a max PG and a center that we could afford. We wouldn't even be able to have gotten Marcus Camby probably.
Everything you said is logical and to a point I agree with you. However, all those moves have been made. Dolan did spoil the Melo deal by getting involved but well he may have psychiatric issues let's be honest here. He's not right in the head.....
Anyhow the Knicks traded youth for a player who could take a game over and he has done that. As for Chandler I think he was brought here less to appease D'antoni as to
1) Allow Amare to play PF and hopefully lengthen his career.
2) Honestly how often can a team acquire a top 5 center who actually knows how to play as a center? Then add in he is still in his 20's and not a headcase. Any GM would do it. The Mavs lost to the timberwolves today because they have a group of sub par big men (save for haywood who played backup last year to Tyson)pretending to be centers trying to replace him.
Also for all our current roster woes imagine if there had been no amnesty. The Knicks would have billups at PG and CP3 would of still gone to the clippers. That was a trade made minus any amnesty assistance. The knicks would trying to move an expiring 14 million billups contract and like always pay to much to put people around the two legitimate stars.
Now the Knicks don't have any pieces missing (they're just injured) they will have the full MLE next year (W. Chandler Return???). K-Mart seems to want to play for the Knicks. Baron can sign for pennies again next year. And the Knicks will still have the mini MLE for another half decent player.
Also it looks like this year both rookies can play, Also by not having to trade anytime soon they won't be added to any deals (if Billups was here one of them would have been added to expiring contract.... It's the Knicks way of trading...)
Lastly D'antoni is on the last year of his deal and Wilbon who hates the Knicks said Phil Jackson would love to coach the Knicks (If D'antoni does well in the playoffs and looks like he could win a championship then he should stay.... I don't think thats likely but it's fair) No to Mike Woodson he is just as flawed as D'antoni but instead of SSOL it's ISO, ISO, ISO.
If anything the light on the other side of the tunnel hasn't been this close since 99. It's a great time to be a Knick fan and expect bandwagoners to come around soon saying how they've always been fans of Melo and sh*t in the coming weeks.
Chandler Signing = No. Melo S&T = Yes.
● Chandler was a risk. Everyone's aware.
Extending Billups at $14M was also a risk, and utilizing the amnesty clause on Billups after re-signing him to obtain Chandler as a necessity leaves us teetering on the edge of disaster - potentially. So, in the end, not a well executed strategy, but we never learn from putting our eggs in the Free Agent Basket.
Going after Paul was just stupid. That isn't even hindsight; that was a pipe dream.
● Melo did what he did for himself.
In securing his 'financial future' by signing ahead of the lockout - after already securing over $100M prior to the trade - and forcing a S&T, the discrepancy that everyone on here used as justification for his greed (yes, it was greed) was marginally over $1.2M a season.
Yes, it was a **** trade ~ it was! unless he brings us to the ECF (STAT too) he has a lot to answer for.
If he had come as a free agent, we would have had the following on the table for New Orleans to trade for Paul.
Gallo, Mozgov, Randolph, Shumpert, our picks that went to Minny (never mind their $5M+ in cap room they received from Eddy Curry's half payed contract) and our picks that went to Denver.
I dare someone to say that's worse than what N.O got for Paul from the Clips.
Chandler trade = B- _________ necessity is what it is.
Melo trade = C - __________ why? Because the trade was not about the Knicks organization on his behalf, and Dolan's.
@metrocard: agreed Tyson isn't worth $58M/4, but that comes with league's deficit of decent centers. Almost all above average players at #5 are overpaid, is Nene worth $67M/5? DeAndre Jorddan $43M/4? No, they're not... and CA trade? I already said everything what had to be said, if you read my posts during the lockout or short therafter you'd know I totally agree with your point. +1
Last edited by Weissenberg; Jan 02, 2012 at 02:00.
- Rep Power
Did you see Gallo blow the wide open layup at the end of the game the other night?
He's the same player over there, that he was here. About a 15 ppg scorer.
People need to get over the melo trade....the only thing we traded of value for Carmelo was Galo and a draft pick.
Felton could be a great pg if he didn't chuck random shots and waste possessions constantly.
Wilson Chandler was a rfa but is stuck in China now anyway so it doesn't really matter.
Mozgov couldn't play. Jerome Jordan is probably better than he is...And we've got tyson chandler now who is a legit center so w/e.
We have an amazing front court now which is the hardest thing in this league to secure, good guards for little money are easy to come by... especially when you consider that all of the best guards in this league right now don't have a title.. Its the teams that had the awesome front courts that win.
I totally agree with you. Especially the "clogged up middle" problem is going to kill us this year. Think about Douglas whatever you want, but it must be frustrating for a pointguard as well, if the only open man is on the perimeter. Again we have got a badly composed team: brilliant soloists but the instruments won't do to create a symphony.
The 14 mil/year for Tyson is not so much 14 mil for just his skills, and I don't look at it that way. He filled a need, probably the biggest need the team had. Filling that huge void in our lineup is what the $14 mil is for - in my opinion.
Lol, I watched the Nuggs @ Lake-Show game on Saturday, and noticed that Gallo was still our Gallo. Dude was bricking wide open looks in the clutch, and there was one drive to the rim where it looked like he blew all 4 tires, and didn't get the call because of the new rule where you can't fly into someone to create contact.
Originally Posted by MadJack
Mozgoz looked good tho...in a more inside-outside oriented offense....and Wilson is in China.
So I dunno if the production that we're seeing from Felton in a traditional offense, and the competent play from Mozzy in limited mins mean we gave up too much for Melo. He's already surpassed what those guys did for us, he just has a coach who's content with him going from the "Beast on the Block" to the "Dude who's never on the block."
Gallo, was cool. Mozzy was cool. Raymond was greatly appreciated. Wilson is my boy. Carmelo is a HOF talent.
#1) we weren't getting him for less, because as "selfish" (I put it in quotes, because I challenge anyone in here to just.....give up money. Not take less and make the same amount you would if you actually had to pay state taxes as you would in other states, like the Big 2 and a half did in Miami...but I mean...REALLY just leave money on the table...but I digress) a move it is, he would have gone elsewhere to get his money under the old CBA.
#2) Keeping those guys would have made us slightly worse than the Hawks the past few years. Perennial playoff losers. Trying to win with one superstar and really good players doesn't exactly work: two 60+ wins seasons, #1 defense, and MVP...two straight years for the Cavs, no ring; Kobe without Pau/Bynum/Odom or Shaq, no rings; Dwight Howard, no rings; Paul Pierce without KG or Jesus Shuttlesworth, no rings; MJ without Pippen, no rings. Have I made my point? Where would we have gone with STAT & them *****s over there?
Look at the recent champs: Mavs (Dirk and crew, some of whom are gone and paid), Lakers x2 (Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom), Celtics (Pierce, KG, Ray), Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli), Heat (Wade, Shaq, and Mourning), Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli), Pistons (Big Shot, RIP, Tayshaun, 'Sheed, Ben), Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobli, and Bowen gets and honorable mention), Lakers x3 (Shaq, Kobe, Fox, and Horry gets a mention), Spurs (Duncan, Robertson, Elliot, and massive amounts of defense.)
I see one definite exception to the superstar rule there, and another team that had a roster full of starter talent. Obviously the 03-04 Pistons, and then the Mavs. That's two teams out of 13 champs....that's called the exception to the rule.
What makes anyone think STAT, Gallo, Wilson, and Raymond would have joined that group of champs? Why are people so enamored with building a team that would have been an exception to the rule at best, should it have tasted success? When is that ever the proper way to go about things?
I understand if it's your only option...but it's a superstar league, it has been for a while now. "Solid" teams get run over by superstars.
Last edited by nuckles2k2; Jan 02, 2012 at 07:31.
You forgot one thing...
Originally Posted by metrocard
Thats right. When Gallinari, Mozgov, or Chandler can close out games like Melo...
then maybe this deal deserves reconsideration. Until then, all anyone who believes the Knicks deserve something (playoff appearance, national t.v. exposure, increase in demand to play for this organization, etc...) for nothing look like spoiled, unreasonable fans- exactly who most of Knick fans are.
No sense in crying over
this is a star league, stars get it done. Middle of the road players get traded.
Bigs have greater value in the league because there are few viable options. Just look at their salaries. You pay for what you get, even if it's just a big body providing quality minutes.
This team was built to sell tickets and please the impatient and ignorant NY fans, not win a championship.
if I had been GM . . .
The Knicks have been less than mediocre for more than a decade and during that time we have eschewed rebuilding for buying. Metro, Crazy8s and LJ4ptplay -- a Colorado resident who was never high on Melo -- have made legitimate points. I always wanted us to rebuild, rather than buy. Note that despite our mediocrity, we have no one close to a "star" on the team that we have drafted.
I am not concerned about perhaps over-paying Chandler. Even at $9M or $10m a year, our cap going forward would leave us very little -- if any -- room for other than vet minimum or cap exception transactions. Within two years the combined salaries of Melo and Amare' will be over $47M. Our troubles for growing a bench will be exacerbated by the fact that we have neither a draft pick this year -- when the draft is loaded -- or in 2014.
But we do have, at least on paper, a dynamite front line. I think Baron Davis is going to help and I have a very good feeling about Shumpert. Jorts has been unexpectedly impressive so far. But this is our team and we are going to have to live with them. I do not see any trading of Amare'. He will be fine. I am not a fan of Douglas as a point guard and Landry's limitations are beginning to show. Perhaps there is room for a trade involving one or more of them for a late first round pick this year.
A side note, Denver and Minnesota are fun to watch. I cannot believe that David Kahn has actually put togeher a team that can play.
Last edited by Oldtimer; Jan 02, 2012 at 10:41.
Reason: Moved a sentence
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^^This man knows what he is talking about, You just missed one thing, coaching.All of those teams found the right coaches before they one,the Bulls, jackson>collins, Lakers, jackson>kurt rambus, Spurs, pop>bob hill, Mavs, Carlisle>avery johnson, see my point.Sometime coaches just lose his players, and Antoni doesn't have and explanation for anything, and I think the players are starting to see him for what he is, a mediocre coach.All of those new coaches one titles with the same stars they were given, good coaches adjust to what the have, and Mike Antoni either can't or won't do it.
Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
Last edited by fender0577; Jan 02, 2012 at 11:42.
Another thing you forgot. Depth. All those teams had depth, solid starting lineup, a strong bench and potential 6th man. Stars are important but so is depth.
Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
I would also like to understand why those who advocated for the Melo trade go under the assumption that Melo was the only chance the Knicks had at adding another star? Everyone says the old team wouldn't have gone far, which is true, but seem to think the team would have stayed stagnant with just Amare forever. I don't understand this argument, particularly since we would've had $18 mil in cap space this offseason. We could have built a better team than the one we're going to be stuck with now with no flexibility, draft picks or assets going forward. Melo was not the be all and end all for the Knicks.
As Metro pointed out, it was unnecessary. And while Melo is a great closer and a great scorer, he is very inconsistent. His playoff performance for the Knicks is a microcosm of his entire career. Sometimes he's into the game and plays brilliantly, but all too often he's disinterested and plays awfully. As time passes, many of you will eventually see this. This kind of "superstar" needs a very solid supporting cast to win a championship, which we don't have and may be behind the 8-ball in trying to acquire in the future. Point being, there were better options. Signing him during the offseason would have been great, but if he had chosen to be traded to the Nets, we would have been better off to let him rot in NJ.