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Thread: Phil Jackson Sucks -- not really, but..

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    Cool Phil Jackson Sucks -- not really, but..

    Would he not get roasted here by KO's (anti)MDA crew?

    His patented offense, not unlike D'antoni's, is predicated upon:

    *a free flowing offense

    *set plays being very rare

    *having smart players who can make heady decisions, particularly when it comes to passing

    *having certain "Phil Jackson" players as a necessity

    Additionally, on the subject of D'antoni "needing" some all-star roster of players -- Phil Jackson essentially demands a loaded roster, complete with Jackson-approved players. Or he won't even consider it.

    Arguably, Jackson would not have undertaken the PHO Suns the year D'antoni came aboard -- and ended up winning Coach of the Year, for the team's epic reversal -- as the roster wasn't yet "good" enough.

    And surely, Jackson would never have touched this Knick team at any point during the past several years, as it wasn't fit for his assurances of success and having the type of players he demands.

    Yet another similarity is D'antoni owing his success to Nash (never mind that Nash went from fringe all-star to lock HOF and multiple MVP under him), just as Phil Jackson surely owes an even larger chunk of his successes to Kobe Bryant...or is it Shaq?

    Phil Jackson = one of the smartest, counter-popular opinion, cutting edge basketball minds

    Mike D'antoni = one of the smartest, counter-popular opinion, cutting edge basketball minds

    I'm sticking to this.

    Whether he should be replaced because our team simply doesn't fit his "system"....Well, that may be the case, and it could reach a point where that is necessary, however

    That reflects a poorly assembled roster, more than anything else.

    Any team with Amare Stoudemire, at a max deal, at his age, demands to be built upon a free flowing offense, helmed by a quality PG who can make smart decisions. Same goes for important players like Fields; and as we will find out more and more, making Shumpert as effective as possible, too.

    Or we can pretend a new coach of defensive and half-court brilliance -- maybe Larry Brown can come back -- will transform what is into what isn't.

    No need to dissect any perceptions of what MDA does and doesn't do right in any given game, or what his flaws are -- plenty of good threads and posts already on that. Persuasive ones, even, some of which I can't even disagree with....in a vacuum.

    In the context of what I ultimately see -- my Phil Jackson parable, eg -- I just don't believe it actually condemns MDA as a terminally, fatally flawed coach.

    When we signed Amare we were considered a 50/50 team to even make the playoffs in a weak division, based off our pure talent and roster. Professional analysts and KO members alike are on record as having this perception (at best).

    Of course, we became an increasingly dangerous, playoff bound team. Especially when our once mediocre PG got into a sync and became an all-star quality facilitator, making Amare into the otherworldly force he can be.

    This was all expressly under D'antoni. And I argue he specifically added value to our team last year, pre-Melo, more than any other coach in the league, save perhaps Thibs.

    Yes things look ugly. Yes D'antoni looks ugly. But let's not forget context and underlying issues, which have profound consequences when it comes to the perceptions of coaches in this league, and how fluid a perception of a coach can change.


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    Member knickerbocka176's Avatar
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    i am not saying your wrong you might al most be 100 percent right in my opinion but d'antoni can at least adjust a tiny bit to fit how our players play and create some sort of different system...ive been saying all along stat needs a point guard to be effective but your thread made me realize that its D'ANTONI who needs that point guard to be at his best

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    Originally Posted by knickerbocka176
    i am not saying your wrong you might al most be 100 percent right in my opinion but d'antoni can at least adjust a tiny bit to fit how our players play and create some sort of different system...ive been saying all along stat needs a point guard to be effective but your thread made me realize that its D'ANTONI who needs that point guard to be at his best
    I hear ya. I will never say MDA doesn't make mistakes, particularly this season.

    Our team is in the midst of a war-like struggle right now. And I will include MDA as a part of that. Like I said, I won't shy away from the fact that he looks like refried donkey's **** right now.

    Let's remember:

    the team was gutted, added a new set of players....they gelled....then it was gutted, and an additional superstar was added....and then it had a major starting rotation makeover again (we lost having a starting NBA point guard; we finally gained a starting NBA center)....and then there was basically no proper off-season.

    This all basically happened in 1 year, too.

    And we are on the cusp of yet another major roster shift -- with the expectation of Baron Davis.

    Again, I hear ya...I too would like to see MDA make various, even if they are minor, tweaks and improvements that you know could probably help....

    But, let's not add to the upheaval and disarray yet again by wanting the coach to transform the team into a set-play, slowed down team of some sort....

    It doesn't make sense with the key players we have, and it conflicts with the looming arrival of a critically important PG who will be a key part of the type of system that *does* make sense for this team, and coach.

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    Superstar Sage's Avatar
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    While the triangle offense isn't so much based on set play (which is inacurate but we'll go with it), it is a purposeful offensive system, everything has a point and every player has a role. As opposed to D'Antoni's current system which for lack of a better term, I'm calling the "piss-fart around" offense.

    We are definitely missing a point guard, idealy a slasher who can suck defenders into the key and then kick out. The problem with D'Antoni's system and our team is that we don't have the outside threats. We shoot a horrible % from 3 and in the games we win with good outside shooting, the % is just ridiculously high. You can't expect to shoot 50% from downtown every game.

    Good on him for having a system he's put a lot of time into, but if we don't have the players to run it, he has to adapt. That's what smart people do.

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    Originally Posted by knickerbocka176
    but your thread made me realize that its D'ANTONI who needs that point guard to be at his best
    Yes! And it isn't a knock on a coach who "needs" certain players to run their system.

    Phil Jackon, I obv mentioned.

    But Jerry Sloan all those years was the same way, in building a certain type of team that rigidly followed his philosophy as much as possible.

    For better or worse, we signed Amare to a max, long term deal. Based off how we know Amare can perform in the right situation....which coincides with the system MDA preaches....

    Well, I'm sorry to say you are going to be in for a perpetual world of hurt if you expect to see some half-court, brilliant set-play creating defensive coach to come in here and make us winners anytime soon.

    And regarding Amare's deplorable defense:

    #1, he simply shows zero intelligence/confidence to even do the most basic (and important) things. Let's get him back to being maybe the most unstoppable PF in the game.

    #2, if you want Amare to be "motivated" to play sound, fluid D....Amare feeling like an ******* chump and feeling lost in the bread and butter of his game will make that possibility an absolute fail.

    #3, let's assume MDA doesn't have the clout or defensive abilities -- and to repeat, what Amare needs to most critically do, could be taught by any WNBA coach. But assuming Amare needs the fresh voice of a "Defensive Coach" who is all about defense...well, that's we just happened to make a splash in signing a defensive coach.

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    Originally Posted by Sage
    While the triangle offense isn't so much based on set play (which is inacurate but we'll go with it), it is a purposeful offensive system, everything has a point and every player has a role. As opposed to D'Antoni's current system which for lack of a better term, I'm calling the "piss-fart around" offense.

    We are definitely missing a point guard, idealy a slasher who can suck defenders into the key and then kick out. The problem with D'Antoni's system and our team is that we don't have the outside threats. We shoot a horrible % from 3 and in the games we win with good outside shooting, the % is just ridiculously high. You can't expect to shoot 50% from downtown every game.

    Good on him for having a system he's put a lot of time into, but if we don't have the players to run it, he has to adapt. That's what smart people do.
    But we do have the players to run it! One of whom is the most critical player and contract on this team -- Stoudemire.

    What we lack is a starting NBA point guard.

    Why adapt to and settle for something inferior to that which you can attain -- simply by building a quality, complete roster? A quality, complete roster is essential to contend, regardless of coach or coaching system.

    Not to mention, Baron Davis coming back soon.

    You mention MDA's system looks like **** right now...And it does. Just like Amare looks like ****.

    But when you have the proper players -- and a complete roster -- it is just what you positively described the triangle as:

    "a purposeful, offensive system"

    And just like you described the current look of our system, "fart-stained piss", so to would the triangle appear if it did not have the critical ingredients.

    Jackson's demands for a roster of high quality and particular players far exceeds what MDA desires.

    The very things you mentioned MDA "needs" -- a smart, starting-calier NBA point guard....a couple players with range who can space the floor....

    These are simply good ingredients to have on your team -- necessary pieces -- and pieces which we simply do not have.

    Again, yes, we could radically alter our team's system..FIRE D'antoni....bring in his opposite...And then what? Continue to watch key players on our already thin team, including our most vital player and contract -- Amare -- flounder and not reach their potential in a system that doesn't suit them?

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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh
    Would he not get roasted here by KO's (anti)MDA crew?

    His patented offense, not unlike D'antoni's, is predicated upon:

    *a free flowing offense

    *set plays being very rare

    *having smart players who can make heady decisions, particularly when it comes to passing

    *having certain "Phil Jackson" players as a necessity

    Additionally, on the subject of D'antoni "needing" some all-star roster of players -- Phil Jackson essentially demands a loaded roster, complete with Jackson-approved players. Or he won't even consider it.

    Arguably, Jackson would not have undertaken the PHO Suns the year D'antoni came aboard -- and ended up winning Coach of the Year, for the team's epic reversal -- as the roster wasn't yet "good" enough.

    And surely, Jackson would never have touched this Knick team at any point during the past several years, as it wasn't fit for his assurances of success and having the type of players he demands.

    Yet another similarity is D'antoni owing his success to Nash (never mind that Nash went from fringe all-star to lock HOF and multiple MVP under him), just as Phil Jackson surely owes an even larger chunk of his successes to Kobe Bryant...or is it Shaq?

    Phil Jackson = one of the smartest, counter-popular opinion, cutting edge basketball minds

    Mike D'antoni = one of the smartest, counter-popular opinion, cutting edge basketball minds

    I'm sticking to this.

    Whether he should be replaced because our team simply doesn't fit his "system"....Well, that may be the case, and it could reach a point where that is necessary, however

    That reflects a poorly assembled roster, more than anything else.

    Any team with Amare Stoudemire, at a max deal, at his age, demands to be built upon a free flowing offense, helmed by a quality PG who can make smart decisions. Same goes for important players like Fields; and as we will find out more and more, making Shumpert as effective as possible, too.

    Or we can pretend a new coach of defensive and half-court brilliance -- maybe Larry Brown can come back -- will transform what is into what isn't.

    No need to dissect any perceptions of what MDA does and doesn't do right in any given game, or what his flaws are -- plenty of good threads and posts already on that. Persuasive ones, even, some of which I can't even disagree with....in a vacuum.

    In the context of what I ultimately see -- my Phil Jackson parable, eg -- I just don't believe it actually condemns MDA as a terminally, fatally flawed coach.

    When we signed Amare we were considered a 50/50 team to even make the playoffs in a weak division, based off our pure talent and roster. Professional analysts and KO members alike are on record as having this perception (at best).

    Of course, we became an increasingly dangerous, playoff bound team. Especially when our once mediocre PG got into a sync and became an all-star quality facilitator, making Amare into the otherworldly force he can be.

    This was all expressly under D'antoni. And I argue he specifically added value to our team last year, pre-Melo, more than any other coach in the league, save perhaps Thibs.

    Yes things look ugly. Yes D'antoni looks ugly. But let's not forget context and underlying issues, which have profound consequences when it comes to the perceptions of coaches in this league, and how fluid a perception of a coach can change.

    Love the argument, but i would never put Antoni and Phil in the same breath.Phil challenges his players, you see what he did to Kobe,in his prime, antoni would never go at his players like that.Phil made the triangle work with no center, then went to L.A and Won with one of the most dominate big men ever, that's called adapting to your players.All i'm getting is excuses for this guy, you think Phil would watch all these bad shots, or STAT getting the ball 30 feet from the hoop, and not do something about it, please, this guy has the 2 most dominate scorers at there positions and he can't make any adjustments to make it work.That's an indictment on him, no more excuses, please.One little adjustment, help STAT develop a POST game, that would do wonders for this team.

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    How can Anyone defend this guys coaching and be serious about it. He can not make ANY in game decisions or changes. Something your average Rec. League coach does. After every game when someone questions him, all he can say Is we gotta look at the film and see what we did wrong and what adjustments need to be made. COACH, this is done during the game you are currently in. If something is not working, you need to see it DURING the game and adjust DURING the game, not take the L and go watch film to see what adjustments need to be made. COACH, bring in someone to work on focusing on helping Stat, Chandler, and others on post up moves and the basics to boxing out for rebounds, getting over and under screens. Allow them the time to look at film BEFORE the game so they can get a feel of their opponents hot spots, tendencies, and so forth. Take a guy out the game for making a bone headed decision, take him out for a lack of defensive effort. And lastly, give the players a role, scout your opponent and assign the players roles accordingly. I guess what I'm trying to say is D'Antoni, just be a COACH

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    Originally Posted by Knicks#7
    How can Anyone defend this guys coaching and be serious about it. He can not make ANY in game decisions or changes. Something your average Rec. League coach does. After every game when someone questions him, all he can say Is we gotta look at the film and see what we did wrong and what adjustments need to be made. COACH, this is done during the game you are currently in. If something is not working, you need to see it DURING the game and adjust DURING the game, not take the L and go watch film to see what adjustments need to be made. COACH, bring in someone to work on focusing on helping Stat, Chandler, and others on post up moves and the basics to boxing out for rebounds, getting over and under screens. Allow them the time to look at film BEFORE the game so they can get a feel of their opponents hot spots, tendencies, and so forth. Take a guy out the game for making a bone headed decision, take him out for a lack of defensive effort. And lastly, give the players a role, scout your opponent and assign the players roles accordingly. I guess what I'm trying to say is D'Antoni, just be a COACH
    AGREED. +1

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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    AGREED. +1
    Not only does MDA not make in-game adjustments, he doesn't make them after the game either. He talks a good game in the post-game interviews and such but he never really does anything to fix our problems and that's noted by us making the same mistakes over and over.

    I mean we get blown up for 17 3 pointers at home against Orlando and what is his adjustment tonight? He NEVER made one. Go back and watch the game. On D he has our big guys at the top of the key and our guards guarding the baseline/basket. AGAIN, I counted 20+ WIDE open shots for Phoenix. They're not getting these open shots because of good play calling, they're getting them because MDA won't make adjustments. What ticks me off the most is we have 5 guys in the paint and they don't even box out on top of it all.

    God there's so many things wrong with his coaching I can't even count. I can write another 500 words about how he doesn't have them call out their screens which leads to mismatches all game. He doesn't call plays. Seriously I don't wish injury upon anyone, but if MDA got hit by a bus I would scream out hallelujah! If that makes me a bad person, I'm sorry but that's real talk.

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    Originally Posted by fender0577
    Love the argument, but i would never put Antoni and Phil in the same breath.Phil challenges his players, you see what he did to Kobe,in his prime, antoni would never go at his players like that.Phil made the triangle work with no center, then went to L.A and Won with one of the most dominate big men ever, that's called adapting to your players.All i'm getting is excuses for this guy, you think Phil would watch all these bad shots, or STAT getting the ball 30 feet from the hoop, and not do something about it, please, this guy has the 2 most dominate scorers at there positions and he can't make any adjustments to make it work.That's an indictment on him, no more excuses, please.One little adjustment, help STAT develop a POST game, that would do wonders for this team.
    Is it wrong that after Phil Jackson I want Bill Laimbeer to be headcoach just to help Amare's overall game like he helped Kevin Loves game??? But really though D'antoni's got to go. Its pathetic that the Knicks have been struggling against lottery teams offensively and/or defensively all season long..... Oh yeah not to mention being blown out by Playoff teams.

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    Originally Posted by Wargames
    Is it wrong that after Phil Jackson I want Bill Laimbeer to be headcoach just to help Amare's overall game like he helped Kevin Loves game??? But really though D'antoni's got to go. Its pathetic that the Knicks have been struggling against lottery teams offensively and/or defensively all season long..... Oh yeah not to mention being blown out by Playoff teams.
    I want Bill Laimbeer first and foremost. I've been saying this since last season ended. Not only did he help Love. Look at some of the stats Anthony Randolph put up after Beasley got hurt. They were crazy...

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    One thing I am confident in Phil Jackson is his ability to actually manage the game.

    D'Antoni, so far, has shown no ability to actually make things happen. He has done nothing more than be a sideline cheerleader - and as I've wrote many times, Tommy Dee of TheKnicksBlog reported that one of the Knicks (his name kept anonymous so as to not destroy team chemistry) reported after the playoff loss that Chauncey Billups did more coaching during his time in NY than Mike D'Antoni ever did.

    We need coaches who can TEACH. Coaching isn't just about encouraging players, it's TEACHING players how to use their talents properly and you can't deny that Phil Jackson has had more success doing that in this league than anybody else. He got KOBE BRYANT, one of the most egotistical team chemistry-killing players out there, to work for the greater good and win a championship...he has two superstars in the Knicks...make it happen.

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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    I want Bill Laimbeer first and foremost. I've been saying this since last season ended. Not only did he help Love. Look at some of the stats Anthony Randolph put up after Beasley got hurt. They were crazy...
    ^^^ Hey your the guy who put me on to the awesomeness of Bill Laimbeer as a Head Coach. I read a post you made did some research and became a believer. Its between Phil or Bill with me. However idk Dolan is such a nutcase I think the knicks are going ti give it to woodson for the nwxt 3 years....

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    Originally Posted by Wargames
    ^^^ Hey your the guy who put me on to the awesomeness of Bill Laimbeer as a Head Coach. I read a post you made did some research and became a believer. Its between Phil or Bill with me. However idk Dolan is such a nutcase I think the knicks are going ti give it to woodson for the nwxt 3 years....
    Well if Isaih really is in Dolans ear Laimbeer will be the next Knicks coach.

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