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Thread: Your expectations of our players is absurd

  1. #31
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    I'm surprised people are surprised this is an iso team.

    I am surprised people think just changing the coach and/or Davis returning will suddenly make this team a contender.

  2. #32
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    Nice posts...

    rolling in

    Judging from the ability of the coaches and our current talent…I see certain units working better than others.

    Shumpert, Walker, Melo, Harrelson, Chandler…works well

    Douglas, Fields, Balkman, Amare, Jefferies/Chandler/Harrelson…works well

    Any combination with Stat, Mello and Fields playing together doesn’t seem to work well under coach D’Ant... My best guess why is because they aren’t working any plays, they think passing the rock around until someone is open is enough… but this creates chucking and confusion. It will never form any cohesion because there is no planning or certainty in such a game plan. It will be hard to recognize the tendencies of your teammates when everyone is basically running around freely.

    Stat is a scorer, boarder line role player. I say role player simply because he needs a point guard to set him up. Knowing this, and realizing that he needs to develop a post game puts him in the overrated section, his hefty price tag ensures this. As of now…he’s not really earning that fat check.

    The only way I can see these 3 playing together is by designing specific plays for them. Back doors/simple pick and rolls…plays that require slick rotations putting our best players in their sweet spots. You don’t really see this. I saw D’Ant go to his small chalk board once this year and that was at the end of the Washington game. It was a simple playground call for Amare to set up a high screen for Melo to shoot a wide open 3 ball. Smh.

    Melo playing the point forward is ok…but to a stint, it shouldn’t be used as much as they’re using it now. This is a sign of forcing a game plan to work. Adjustments need to be made. When you have to use your big men to play the little guys positions (dribbling, 3pt’s) and use your little guys to play big men positions (rebounding) there is clearly something wrong in the coaching philosophy.

    Amare should always be near or around the paint (actually weaving in and out of it) along with Chandler. He should not be anywhere near the parameter or trying to dribble into the paint. His shot selection should only come with him making 1 or 2 dribble moves in the post…and no more. I always say “WTF” when I see him near the 3 line contemplating shooting it or putting it on the floor….which often results in turnovers because of his pricy, yet weak dribbling skillz. His size and talent clearly illustrates where he’s supposed to be.

    Fields is the type of player that needs his own space to shine. I think he plays well with Stat but has problems adjusting to Melo’s ISO game. When playing with Stat he shines and contributes a bit more. With Mello…he seems a bit confuse on what to do, he struggles deciding where and when to give space on the floor for Melo’s Iso. He’s become more of a rebounder when playing with Melo.

    Douglas is the spark off the bench, it’s better for him to observe what’s happening before he actually participates. He’s an undersized player and his strengths come from being a relentless pest on tired ball handlers. He developed some range (most small players do) and that helps spread the floor for Stat…who should be our dominant post player. Putting the weight of criticism on TD while we have Stat, Melo and superstar D’Ant isn’t really fair. I think TD has done a lot of improving thus far… but you can only expect so much from this undersized guard.

    Shumpert is still adjusting to the game, better than most thought he would…considering he’s still playing injured. His thrive to be a starter will only advance his obvious talents. The young and strong combo guard is playing like he has a chip on his shoulder. I think he is trying to solidify one of the starting guard spots as his own. D’Ant shouldn’t have him shooting so much thou.

    Coach has the offensive talent at his deposal. It’ll serve him well if he slowed the game down and let the offense work itself out though control movement. If we saved our energy for the Defensive part of the game…we would have a winning record and be the talk of the East, again.

  3. #33
    Veteran Sprewell-Houston's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smokes
    I will add a couple more things for your viewing pleasure.

    To say that it's "pathetic" the way STAT is playing due to having no PG... Well none of us are happy with Amare's performance but it's not pathetic no. Do you think that any other elite big man would be leading us to the promised land without a half-decent PG on the roster? The only players who don't need a quality PG to be great are the players who are great playmakers, be it a true PG, a Kobe/Wade-esque SG, a Lebron/Bird type SF or whatever. You think if we put Gasol, Duncan, Dirk, Bosh on this team with no PG to get them the ball we'd magically be better? No we wouldn't, these guys all have people who can get them the ball.

    Douglas and Shumpert were not "a PG picked in the first round" they are guards picked in the first round. You expect a 29th pick combo guard to be able to run an offense in the NBA? You're deluded. And yes, expecting WAY too much!

    Why is it embarassing that Douglas is one of the worst playmaking PG's in the league? That's not his role. His role is to shoot and defend and hustle, and hopefully at some point get better at driving the lane. Apart from the last part, he has at points excelled at each of those things.

    Thank you and goodnight!
    I think his turnovers are quite pathetic tbh. Name another big man in the NBA that produces that amount of turnovers on a regular basis, by dribbling the ball on his feet, travelling, charging or going out of bounds. Neither of Nowitzki, Gasol, Bosh, Duncan, Garnett or even Kevin Love produce that much unneccesary turnovers. The only one who comes close is Blake Griffin and he's a sophomore....

    And yes, we would be better with Dirk or Duncan on this team, unquestionably! Dirk has been lights out for Germany and they don't have a D-League level PG for years....and Tim Duncan....probably the best PF of all time, all he needs is the ball in the post and he'll make something happen.

    Eric Bledsoe is a combo guard and he did quite ok for the Clippers in terms of running plays last season, definitely better than Douglas. To name one example.

    Why is Douglas playing PG when he can't make plays and can't distribute the ball? He should play SG exclusively. I have nothing against Toney, I really respect his attributes like hustling, trying hard and hitting threes, but he really shouldn't play PG or initiate our offense, it's just painful to watch.

    Bibby and probably even LIn should be our PGs until Davis is ready, Shumpert and Douglas should be our SGs and Melo and Fields should be our SFs.

  4. #34
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Some coaches believe in scoring inside out. They make sure bigs are not only fundamentally sound (getting to a spot on the blocks, receiving the pass cleanly, holding the ball high, playing with their backs to the basket, initiating their triple threat- passing, dribbling, shooting, using post moves to put up QUALITY shots, even through contact), emphasize gaining position in the post, and making sound decisons.

    This allows said player and team to be successful at drawing fouls while putting up quality high percentage shots, and preserving the option of passing the ball out when the defense collapses. Simple, plain, fundamentals.

    Others do it the 'Antoni way. They pass the ball around the perimeter, unable to gain position or get the ball on the blocks, until someone is open and decides to shoot... and they fail. This is NOT a fundamental approach.

    Can anyone show me where 'Antoni has achieved such novice approach? Where we can be confident that when shooters are off we can try and exploit the post?

    No!

    Stop the "players" excuse. Even with the players, he can't do it, because he doesn't want to admit this is the best way. He was an average, small, limited PG who's main grasp of basketball was to give the PG more options to beat the fundamentally sound strategies proven to work. And he failed, and its no surprise an Italian PG, as established as he was however limited, doesn't really know the intricacies of basketball.

    When you make excuses for 'Antoni, you too are proving you don't know the intricacies of basketball, becaue if you did, you would realize he doesn't. It's plain as day. You don't know what you are talking about, just like 'Antoni.

    Now maybe he's a good motivator, maybe good communicator, maybe lax on enforcing rules... who knows?
    But don't try and sell me **** and call it chocolate cake.

    ANYONE making a case about 'Antoni knowing and being fundamentally adept at basketball, obviously doesn't know baskeball. I could name and illustrate 1000's of instances where Mike 'Antoni obviously does not know the intricacies of this game, 1000's.
    Last edited by Red; Jan 17, 2012 at 15:08.

  5. #35
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Red... Are you high? Why on earth are you attacking my posts when in the very first one it says clearly and simply that I believe the main reason this team struggles is due to MDA... Sometimes I think you really don't know how to read!

    However these fans seem to believe Melo should play like Lebron, Shump should play like CP3, STAT should have Hakeem like post ability, TD is a PG not a combo guard, Fields should be a dead-eye shooter... The list goes on...

    NO! Our players are who they are and for better or worse that's who we have on our roster. Our players are not going to change, only the way we play them. The sum of our parts could be so much better, if utilized correctly.

  6. #36
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Why is Douglas playing PG when he can't make plays and can't distribute the ball? He should play SG exclusively. I have nothing against Toney, I really respect his attributes like hustling, trying hard and hitting threes, but he really shouldn't play PG or initiate our offense, it's just painful to watch.
    Well now you're essentially saying the same thing as I am. Our players are being forced into roles and made to play in ways they are not comfortable with. Melo is not a point forward, Amare is not a great defender, Fields is not your typical catch and shoot SG etc etc.

    I didn't once say Toney should be playing PG I said it's ridiculous for people to expect him to be a great PG.

    Just like I think Fields is a good player but I don't think he should be starting or playing 30 minutes a night.

    And that Shumpert should not be our starting PG and equally should not be playing 30 minutes.

    RE Amare I can't even be bothered discussing him anymore, there are already 20 threads about Amare on the first page it's been done to death. You think he sucks? Fine it really doesn't matter because guess what we are stuck with him! No other team will ever take him away the only way he's leaving this team is on a stretcher so I'll continue to support him if you don't mind.
    Last edited by smokes; Jan 17, 2012 at 17:35.

  7. #37
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Shiz guys did Fields just go for 17 points on 50% shooting with a bunch of rebounds assists and steals tonight? Better send him to the D League fast!

  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by smokes
    This is probably going to be too long of a read for many of our posters whose attention span goes as far as watching 1 quarter of basketball before proposing that we trade Melo Stat and Tyson for D12 CP3 and Lebron. However maybe it will make a few people think twice.

    Our team right now is a complete joke. Our roster at first glance looks good but as a TEAM we lack any kind of cohesiveness or chemistry. We lack fundamental cogs that would turn this team into a solid one pretty much overnight. Lets talk about the players we have.

    Carmelo Anthony - Currently the best player on our roster not only by reputation but performances. However, I remember at the start of the season posting an article about MDA comparing Melo to Larry Bird and playing him as a point forward. I laughed at it then and people were like "no srsly smokes melo can be a playmaker!!!11eleven"... Uh, no, he can't. He's shown nothing more than glimpses of being a good assist man and when he does its purely because the other team is doubling the **** out of him. Melo is not Lebron. He's not Larry Bird. He's Melo, a 25ppg scorer and the best improvement we can hope to see from him is that he'll step up defensively, consistently.

    Amare Stoudemire - Regardless of his struggles, still the second best player on our team by the same criteria as above. Amare has played his entire career with a premier PG. We specifically brought in Felton on a 2 year "overpaid" deal for the purpose of having someone who could get STAT the ball. Even after trading Felton we had Billups, a savvy championship calibre PG with smarts. We don't have ANYONE on the team who can do this anymore so it should be no surprise that Amare is not functioning properly right now.

    Tyson Chandler - Is a 10ppg 10rpg 2bpg player we got for defensive purposes only. Offensively he's as useful as Jared Jefferies unless, yes you guessed it, he's playing with a solid PG. Once gelled and cohesive with Amare we should see some nice interior D on this team. It's not surprising that a team who is so crap offensively also struggles defensively because we have a desperation negative mindset right now and Tyson/STAT/Jorts will need a while before they are comfortable with each others floor positioning and know when their teammate needs help.

    Toney Douglas (29th pick) - Again, expectations coming in for this guy were silly especially after his performance in the playoffs. Our offensive genius coach saw Toney as a potential starting PG in the NBA. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. This guy has and always will be a legit scoring 6th man type of combo guard threat and should be used as such. Obviously he's suffered a huge blow to his confidence thanks to the position he's been placed in but as the season progresses and our team improves you can REALISTICALLY expect him to return to being a 15ppg scorer off the bench who can hit the 3 ball.

    Landry Fields (39th pick) - I genuinely wonder whether during his time with Andy Rautins posting youtube videos they DP'ed some peoples girlfriends on this site the kinda hate this guy has been receiving. The guy is a hard working 15-20mpg SG who should be anchoring the 2nd unit with solid fundamentals, fast break buckets, hustle, catch and shoot open opportunities, catch and drive the baseline etc. The guy can consistently contribute 8-10ppg 5 rebs and a steal which is more than anyone can ask for from a guy no one had even heard of 18 months ago. He is not and never will be a volume scorer/shooter and he should not be starting on this team, he should be coming in with TD to provide energy, size (at his spot) and hustle.

    Iman Shumpert (17th pick) - The way people harp on about this guy here you'd think he's the second coming of Chris Paul. Yet again this guy is not a distributor and up until this summer he could not hit an open jumpshot. He has improved leaps and bounds since then but he should not be a starting PG nor should he be jacking up shots like he's Michael Jordan. When Baron Davis returns I whole heartedly expect Shump to take the role of starting 2 guard and fingers crossed he will be able to defend, hit a three now and then and create a few scoring opportunities from his athleticism and the fact we will then have 3 legit scorers on the team.

    Mike Bibby - I only mention Bibby because he's the only actual PG on our roster right now yet he's not even that anymore. He played an entire season in Miami where he was never a distributor or playmaker he was purely there to keep the ball safe as it advanced across halfcourt and then give it up to Lebron/Wade. It's no shock his PG skills have gone when he's spent 2 years without using them and he's the wrong side of washed up.

    The rest of our team is barely worth mentioning, in regards to this discussion.

    So where do we go from here? Well firstly we get BD back and hope he contributes his usual 15/7 and can control the offense somewhat. At that point we can reasonably expect to score 100 on any given night and judging by our current defense that's plenty.

    Secondly, and I'd probably ejaculate a river of spunk that would drown my entire street if this happened, we need to replace MDA with someone who actually knows how to utilize players other than the PG/C in a pick n rollololololol. I have plenty more to say about MDA but it's not too relevant to the topic of expectations of our players.

    Currently on this team we really only have a couple of players who are underachieving and you can attribute a lot of that to confidence. Once the wins start rolling in, you'll see a whole new New York

    I read the analysis of the first three players. Basically your saying that neither can function without an elite PG. I gotta disagree WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

    It doesnt take much for a PG to dump the ball in the paint and cut or spot up when the ball is doubled. The only problem with the team as a whole is we shoot waaaaaaaaaaaaay to many bad shots.

    IMHO STAT is too far from the rim. I actually saw him post up a couple of times tonight and he abused Gortat. We need more of this and less of the 15-18 ft shots from him. You get STAT in the paint and ask him to make the easy pass when doubled and the offense would run so much smoother. Points would come easier. Offensive rebounds would come easier.

    This mess is on the coach, not the players. The players are doing exactly what coach wants. You cant win in this league without absolutely no post plays. It has to be an option...

  9. #39
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    I read the analysis of the first three players. Basically your saying that neither can function without an elite PG. I gotta disagree WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

    It doesnt take much for a PG to dump the ball in the paint and cut or spot up when the ball is doubled. The only problem with the team as a whole is we shoot waaaaaaaaaaaaay to many bad shots.

    IMHO STAT is too far from the rim. I actually saw him post up a couple of times tonight and he abused Gortat. We need more of this and less of the 15-18 ft shots from him. You get STAT in the paint and ask him to make the easy pass when doubled and the offense would run so much smoother. Points would come easier. Offensive rebounds would come easier.

    This mess is on the coach, not the players. The players are doing exactly what coach wants. You cant win in this league without absolutely no post plays. It has to be an option...
    Didn't mention a PG whatsoever when talking about Melo and I never said anything about us needing an elite PG so your basically disagreeing with an assumption you came up with yourself...

  10. #40
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    Only a **** coach would ever allow the league's most physically dominating big man to play this "stretch 4" bull****. Come on.

  11. #41
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by smokes
    Didn't mention a PG whatsoever when talking about Melo and I never said anything about us needing an elite PG so your basically disagreeing with an assumption you came up with yourself...
    Melo=You didnt, I'll give you that.

    STAT=Well I guess premier doesnt mean the same as elite in your eyes.

    Chandler=I do know that Solid doesnt mean elite, but its still a PG.

    But lets stop dilly dallying with words. Basically its not anything wrong with the players at all. They are what they are. The coach needs to adjust...

  12. #42
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Melo=You didnt, I'll give you that.

    STAT=Well I guess premier doesnt mean the same as elite in your eyes.

    Chandler=I do know that Solid doesnt mean elite, but its still a PG.

    But lets stop dilly dallying with words. Basically its not anything wrong with the players at all. They are what they are. The coach needs to adjust...
    All I was giving was examples of how STAT has previous performed well with a premier PG, he has always had one. Up until now. I wasn't stating he or they NEED one, they only need a competent one.

    And yes I agree, the whole point of this thread is that there is nothing wrong with our players or roster just as a team we cannot come together at the moment.

  13. #43
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    I'm confident STAT would be scoring 25 PPG on 49% shooting or better if he even had a LEAGUE AVERAGE point guard.

    The problem is that TD and Shumpert are so far beyond below average that it isn't even funny.

  14. #44
    Veteran Sprewell-Houston's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Only a **** coach would ever allow the league's most physically dominating big man to play this "stretch 4" bull****. Come on.
    I didn't know we got Dwight Howard on our roster...or are you talking about Blake Griffin?

  15. #45
    Veteran Sprewell-Houston's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    I'm confident STAT would be scoring 25 PPG on 49% shooting or better if he even had a LEAGUE AVERAGE point guard.

    The problem is that TD and Shumpert are so far beyond below average that it isn't even funny.
    I'm sure STAT would be the greatest player of all time if he was named Michael Jordan....

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