View Poll Results: What to do with Lin?

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  • Let him walk

    16 28.57%
  • Resign him and keep him long term

    27 48.21%
  • Resign him and trade him January 2013 with Amare

    13 23.21%
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Thread: Jeremy Lin

  1. #1201
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    "I haven't seen a young team win an NBA title in the last 10 to 15 years," Woodson said last week. "It's the veteran guys who are winning NBA titles."
    God, his retarded, traditionalistic, one-minded way of thinking just pisses me off. Yeah, young OKC didn't win the title this year but they made it to the ****ing finals. And last time I checked, Miami isnt exactly old either.

  2. #1202
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Originally Posted by BillyHoyle
    No, the difference is the price was wrong for lee because signing him meant we couldn't get Stat. The price is right for Lin because signing him does not prevent any future possible moves, it only allows for more.



    Funny, but the "85 %" idea is ridiculous. People don't heal in percentages. He either was healthy enough to play or the injury prevented him from doing what he needed. Obviously, since we didn't see him in a game, Lin felt he wasn't ready to come back.



    Once again, why do you care...60 million for Stat/Melo/Chandler prevents any future flexibility. The ability to sign lin is a gift bc of the early bird rights. It's not fiscally responsible to not match the offer. The money comes straight from Dolan, which personally does not bother me.
    I care because as I said Im a fan and want to see the best for my team. Right now with Kidd and Felton, I feel whats best is to address SG and that Lin hasn't proven to ME IMO that he is worth what the team that I like is thinking to pay which equates to

    $58 Mil over three years to Lin.

    Now signing him and possibly trading him down the line sure. But there will be backlash for him not starting, which is another issue I and the FO must consider.

    Maybe Lin will be a distraction. Maybe this will cause issues and MY team suffers.

    STOP asking obvious questions. You know the answer.

    The pertinent question is who's best for this team?

    KIDD FELTON or LIN?

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    Originally Posted by Red
    I care because as I said Im a fan and want to see the best for my team. Right now with Kidd and Felton, I feel whats best is to address SG and that Lin hasn't proven to ME IMO that he is worth what the team that I like is thinking to pay which equates to

    $58 Mil over three years to Lin.

    Now signing him and possibly trading him down the line sure. But there will be backlash for him not starting, which is another issue I and the FO must consider.

    Maybe Lin will be a distraction. Maybe this will cause issues and MY team suffers.

    STOP asking obvious questions. You know the answer.

    The pertinent question is who's best for this team?

    KIDD FELTON or LIN?
    Personally, if i had to pick one of the three, I take Lin. I won't go into why because luckily, we don't have to make that choice and can have all 3 with no consequences other than cash from Dolan. Whether or not we match Lin's offer has no effect on addressing the SG issue. If anything, we could have done the S&T that got us Felton for a SG instead....but we didn't, and the bottom line is we are left either going with the team we have now or matching this offer and picking up an additional piece.

  4. #1204
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    Originally Posted by CoolClyde
    Here's what Alan Hahn has to say, along with words of wisdom from Clyde Frazier

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    The Knicks Fix: Decision on Lin Sparks Heated Debate
    Monday, July 16, 2012
    By Alan Hahn
    MSG.com

    LAS VEGAS -- How fitting to be here, in the City of Sin, this oasis of unapologetic pretentiousness, of extravagant novelty, of alluring adventure and the pursuit of the endless experience, to consider the value of Linsanity.

    While we rode that euphoric wave through February and March, the New York thing to do was predict its demise. We are a society of equal parts builders and destroyers. Jeremy Lin was a chalk masterpiece on the sidewalk just there to be washed away by the next rain. But Lin admirably proved time and again that he had staying power.

    That staying power is being tested once more.

    There was never a question about Lin's future with the Knicks. The intention always was to re-sign him, regardless of the Bird Rights issue. The Basketball Gods had already gifted the franchise with this unheralded prodigy out of the dregs of the waiver wire and another minor miracle emerged in June when an arbitrator awarded Lin his Early Bird Rights, which should have cemented his future in New York.

    Still, as a restricted free agent, it was in Lin's rights to test the market and find the best value he could get. The Knicks did not engage in contract negotiations on July 1 because they were focused on shoring up other needs on the roster. Lin was considered a given. No matter what someone offered him, the plan all along was to match.

    When reports emerged about a four-year offer sheet from the Houston Rockets, the reaction was measured. Lin didn't have to sign it, of course. He could have simply declined and the Knicks could have used it as the framework of a deal. But the responsibility of his representation is to guarantee the highest price possible and not deal in winks and handshakes. Still, the Knicks, based on the reported figures -- a third year at $9.3 million and a fourth year that wasn't fully guaranteed -- had no hesitation about matching.

    Granted, Lin shouldn't have signed anything if he had no intention, or interest, in playing for the Rockets. So let's make it clear: Lin wants to play for Houston, a franchise that still maintains a strong connection to the Asian market from its ties to Yao Ming. What we can only assume is he would be equally happy to remain a Knick.

    What you'd rather confirm is that he'd prefer to be a Knick.

    That, however, can be fairly questioned by the move to set this false sense of security within the Knicks organization after the original offer sheet numbers were leaked to the media and then turn around and sign a much more challenging deal that reportedly has a fully guaranteed $14.8 million payout in Year 3. When you consider the payroll for this Knicks team that is attempting to build a championship contender, Lin's third year could cost the Knicks as much as $40 million when you factor in potential luxury tax payments.

    The Knicks have until Tuesday night to match. Several reports have suggested the team has abruptly changed its stance on Lin and will not match the deal. Lin's camp is already putting out word through media outlets that he would like to stay in New York, which is sounding somewhat disingenuous in the wake of this offer sheet strategy.

    And while the clock ticks, a despondent fan base is torn in two by a debate that has set off another version of Linsanity. Those in favor of matching the contract have an argument that ranges between the importance of preserving a young talent on what is a much older roster to the idea that Lin's marketing and commercial appeal will recoup most of the hefty cost that incurs by Year 3. Those opposed argue that Lin, with just 25 starts in his career, is not worth such an exorbitant amount of money and has more to prove. One of the most passionate debates has one side saying the Knicks have historically overspent for marginal players (see: Jerome James) so money suddenly shouldn't be an issue in regards to keeping such a popular player as Lin, while the other side says the days of being fiscally irresponsible need to end.

    Just the fact that there is this much passion being generated over this debate proves just how massive Linsanity is for the Knicks. One fan emailed me upset about the potential of losing Lin because, "My wife says she'll never watch another Knicks game if they don't sign Jeremy Lin."

    I would hope she would watch just to see me on the pre and postgame shows.

    Or, you know, Clyde.

    During our broadcast here of the Knicks' Summer League game against the Suns on Sunday, Walt Frazier and I both agreed that the team should match the contract. "Worry about later, later," Frazier said, with the idea that if Lin proves to not be the value you hoped before Year 3, he can be traded as an expiring contract for one or two players. In fact, if the Knicks match, they can trade Lin after Jan. 15 with his consent, which means before this year's deadline he could be moved. They can even ship him to the Rockets -- so Houston can enjoy that balloon in Year 3 -- next summer.

    The idea is, just as an asset alone, Lin is too valuable to let walk without any compensation. In the NBA, if you don't match an offer sheet for a restricted free agent, you do not receive any compensatory draft picks as in other sports. You just lose the player. Even if Lin isn't part of the plan going forward, especially with Raymond Felton reportedly back to run the point (more on this later), Lin should be retained just so the franchise can get some type of return.
    [Ed. Note: Raymond Felton was officially acquired by the Knicks on Monday afternoon.]

    Though several scouts have told me they still don't see Lin becoming more than a very good backup point guard in this league, I'm a strong believer in his potential because of his ability to get to the rim, finish, hit clutch shots, galvanize teammates and, most of all, his impressive will.

    The only thing I question is if that will to remain a Knick is still as strong as it was on Feb. 4, when he entered a game against the Nets hours from being placed on waivers.


    CONTRACT ALREADY AN ISSUE?

    Carmelo Anthony, before USA Basketball practice in Washington, D.C., on Sunday morning, had just finished saying he would "love" to see Jeremy Lin back with the Knicks and added that "I think he has to do what's best for him right now," which prompted a reporter, mindful of Lin's status as a restricted free agent, to say, "It's up to you guys to match."

    Melo then laughed and said, "It's not up to me!"

    He then added, "It's up to the organization to say that they want to match that ridiculous contract that's out there."

    Ridiculous. Contract.

    Many others have said it, but the fact that it came from the star player on the team created a major controversy before breakfast was served in Las Vegas.

    There have been suggestions that Melo was resentful of the attention Lin received last season and also that Lin's interest in remaining a Knick has waned because he doesn't want to play with Melo. The two went out to dinner in June, along with Tyson Chandler, in an attempt to develop a better understanding of each other, discuss the future and air out any lingering issues. Apparently it didn't work.

    Still, Melo's strong words about Lin's impending big payday were troublesome and created a media firestorm that motivated Melo to fire back later in the day.

    "I'm tired of people trying to blame me for the fact that the Knicks might not match," he said to Yahoo! Sports. "I want everybody to get paid if they have the opportunity."

    If you know Melo, you know he is big on having players earn their stripes when they come into the NBA. He orders rookies to carry equipment and, occasionally, his bag. He believes status is something you earn over time, as you prove yourself in the league over the course of a season or two. So Lin's ascension into stardom and as a main face of the franchise is, without question, something Melo has tried to counter with some humble pie. That's been going on in the NBA for decades.

    But J.R. Smith pointed out another underlying issue that has existed in all of pro sports that Lin could face next season: He, with just 64 games of NBA experience, will be making more than other far more established and accomplished players in the league.

    "I think some guys take it personal, being they've been doing it longer and haven't received reward for it yet," Smith told SI.com. "I think it's a tough subject to touch on for a lot of guys."

    Smith, for one, returned to the Knicks at $2.8 million, which is slightly more than half of what Lin will make in the first year of his deal.


    RETURN OF RAYMOND

    Among the host of Knicks who suddenly found themselves in Denver after the Carmelo Anthony trade in Feb. 2011, Raymond Felton was the most shaken by it. Danilo Gallinari heard the rumors for months, as did Wilson Chandler. But Felton never expected his run in New York would have ended that quickly. He admitted to confidants that it soured his attitude and negatively affected his game, which quickly disintegrated after an impressive half-season with the Knicks.

    It came to a head in Portland, his fourth team in three years, when Nate McMillan was furious over Felton's weight. It was an issue with the Knicks, as well, as I recall Donnie Walsh being upset when Felton showed up before training camp in 2010-11 overweight. Felton assured Walsh and the Knicks that his practice is to come in heavy and use training camp to get to the weight he needs. The reasoning, according to Felton, is he likes to feel strong and the rigors of a regular season cause him to lose too much weight and it makes him feel weaker.

    That theory will certainly be put to the test this season, as we've already told you how Knicks coach Mike Woodson has warned his players to show up for training camp at weight and in shape. Those who know Felton well believe Woodson may be just the right coach for Felton, who is a fiery competitor. But McMillan is the hard-driving, motivational type, too, and Felton did not respond well. At one point last season, Felton expressed his frustration with McMillan: "Never in my days playing basketball have I felt like a coach wasn't confident in my ability."

    Felton was putting up career-best numbers (17.1 points per game, 9.0 assists per game) with the Knicks before the trade but what must be noted is that he was playing as the primary ball handler in Mike D'Antoni's pick-and-roll system. Felton and Amar'e Stoudemire developed good chemistry -- though it took time -- and the belief is the two should be able to reconnect again in Woodson's offense.


    AGE AIN'T NOTHING BUT A NUMBER?

    When Toney Douglas was sent to the Rockets in the sign-and-trade for Marcus Camby, it created a fact that is certainly a sign of the times. The most tenured player on the team, by consistent years, is now Amar'e Stoudemire.

    Stoudemire will always be remembered as the pioneer free agent in 2010, which set the first stone of the foundation of this new era. Of course the roster does have several players who have played for the Knicks before (Camby, Felton and Kurt Thomas), but for current tenure, Stoudemire is now the franchise's mainstay.

    Iman Shumpert remains the team's youngest player, at 22, but after him there isn't a single player 25 or under. Two seasons ago, the Knicks were the seventh youngest team in the NBA with an average age of 24.6 years. That was also the fifth youngest team in franchise history.

    Last season, the Knicks average age was 26.5, which is still relatively young. But with the additions of Thomas (40), Jason Kidd (39), Camby (38) and the reported signing of Argentinian point guard Pablo Prigioni (35), the Knicks will have an average age of 31.4 years at the start of the regular season. Six of the 11 players on the anticipated roster will be 30 or older.

    "I haven't seen a young team win an NBA title in the last 10 to 15 years," Woodson said last week. "It's the veteran guys who are winning NBA titles."

    Woodson is correct in that the more veteran teams have won in recent years, no team has won a championship with an average age over 30 in 15 years. The last over-30 team to win an NBA title was the 1997 Chicago Bulls, who had an average age of 30.07. And they had Michael Jordan.

    The last six champions, by average age:

    2012 - Heat (28.4)

    2011- Mavericks (28.4)

    2010 - Lakers (27.6)

    2009 - Lakers (26.2)

    2008 - Celtics (28.4)

    2007 - Spurs (29.4)

    [NOTE: Average age isn't really relative because you can have older players on the roster who aren't factoring into your rotation (i.e.: Juwan Howard on the Heat) but jack up your average age. This would be the case for the Knicks with Kurt Thomas, who isn't expected to play a regular role. A formula was established by Hoopism.com two seasons ago to determine "Effective Age," which takes age and factors in minutes played. We won't be able to determine the Effective Age of this current Knicks group until at least one month into the season, but with a few more roster spots to be filled, the average age could dip below 30. Unless Grant Hill signs, of course.]


    SUMMER SCHOOL

    The Knicks Summer League contingent hasn't done much to distract anyone from the off-the-court news the team has made since the NBA Summer League opened on Friday. The team is 0-2 after losses to the Grizzlies and Suns. Two veterans that are expected to factor into training camp are James White and Chris Copeland and both have been mediocre at best. Copeland is leading the team in scoring, along with Wesley Witherspoon, at 12.5 points per game. Copeland, the European veteran, is shooting at a 44 percent clip in 24.5 minutes per game.

    White, who already has a guaranteed contract for training camp, clearly isn't playing full speed as we haven't seen many flashes of his trademark athleticism and vertical leaping ability, not to mention the scoring he showed playing in Italy last season. He's averaging 4.5 points on 25 percent shooting in 22 minutes per game in two games so far. His plan was to appear in only three games, with the intention to use the Summer League as a means to get acclimated with Woodson and his system to prepare him for camp in October.

    The Knicks do not play Monday, but we'll be back on MSG Network for the team's third game, Tuesday, at 4 p.m. (ET).
    That was an awesome read! Thanks, CoolC.

    I love that Hahn has just written a mini-series sized post on the situation, and Clyde's quote was a typically classy, "Worry about later, later," Frazier said.

    Sheer brilliance.

    The part about Felton coming in over weight was random! He likes to come in to camp over weight? That's ridiculous! Can't do your knees any good, surely! I'm an inch taller than Ray, and at 213 pounds can testify that excess weight (or fat-slutitis) is not a good thing for the slightly taller man, and it's been reported that he's reached 230! That's 10 pounds less than Tyson Chandler!

    That's a huge bitch.

  5. #1205
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    That was an awesome read! Thanks, CoolC.

    I love that Hahn has just written a mini-series sized post on the situation, and Clyde's quote was a typically classy, "Worry about later, later," Frazier said.

    Sheer brilliance.

    The part about Felton coming in over weight was random! He likes to come in to camp over weight? That's ridiculous! Can't do your knees any good, surely! I'm an inch taller than Ray, and at 213 pounds can testify that excess weight (or fat-slutitis) is not a good thing for the slightly taller man, and it's been reported that he's reached 230! That's 10 pounds less than Tyson Chandler!

    That's a huge bitch.
    You aren't talking about this year right?

  6. #1206
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    With Felton, do you mean?

    No, I was referring to 2010-2011.

  7. #1207
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    With Felton, do you mean?

    No, I was referring to 2010-2011.
    Fewf, I was really going to remove his fatass from my avatar once and for all

  8. #1208
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    That was an awesome read! Thanks, CoolC.

    I love that Hahn has just written a mini-series sized post on the situation, and Clyde's quote was a typically classy, "Worry about later, later," Frazier said.

    Sheer brilliance.

    The part about Felton coming in over weight was random! He likes to come in to camp over weight? That's ridiculous! Can't do your knees any good, surely! I'm an inch taller than Ray, and at 213 pounds can testify that excess weight (or fat-slutitis) is not a good thing for the slightly taller man, and it's been reported that he's reached 230! That's 10 pounds less than Tyson Chandler!

    That's a huge bitch.
    6'1 230 isnt gigantic...but its definitely pretty big.. ESPECIALLY for an nba player.. where did u hear he was 230? i believe and hope coming back to a great situation with the knicks, he gets back on track

  9. #1209
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    Originally Posted by BillyHoyle
    Personally, if i had to pick one of the three, I take Lin. I won't go into why because luckily, we don't have to make that choice and can have all 3 with no consequences other than cash from Dolan. Whether or not we match Lin's offer has no effect on addressing the SG issue. If anything, we could have done the S&T that got us Felton for a SG instead....but we didn't, and the bottom line is we are left either going with the team we have now or matching this offer and picking up an additional piece.
    Yeah exactly...Courtney Lee, for example, is a player who still hasn't been signed who could've played SG for us. If we could've gotten him for the minimum salary and retained Lin, we would've had a set starting rotation, as Courtney Lee isn't amazing but dude can hit the 3 unlike Felton

  10. #1210
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    Default Lin Again

    I am not concerned about losing Lin. He received a degree in economics from Harvard. He was fully aware of the luxury tax consequences of the backloaded offer from Houston. I think he could have handled the situation with more class. Match, but trade him to Houston when we can. How about a first round draft pick?

    I am concerned about "gaining" Felton. I hate his game. He cannot shoot, but insists on being the hero. I am counting on Prigioni. I want to see as much of Felton as we saw of Douglas in the second half of last season.

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    Originally Posted by TakMan
    The stock market? Really?! Is this is how low Lin fans have stooped? Making threads about the effect Lin's imminent departure will have on MSG stocks? To be completely honest I don't give two fuks about MSG stocks, whether Lin remains a part of the team, or whether any of his groupies remain Knicks fans after he has gone. This ex (and potentially future) D-Leaguer should not be monopolising what has already been a pretty successful off-season. Over the past two weeks, this team has added experience, talent. defensive depth, and has also re-signed players who were incredibly useful for us last season. Yet people can't see past this Lin saga. The fact is that you are all stressing over Lin more than he is. He couldn't care less whether he remains a Knick or not (evidently) so why do you lot? This thread is the eptome of desperation.
    Yea dude, no need to go on a tirade. It's an interesting point of view. Say what you want but Lin was a factor in this team both in basketball and especially financially. I've started to move on but I can't deny that this whole situation was a fiasco.

  12. #1212
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    Originally Posted by Oldtimer
    I am not concerned about losing Lin. He received a degree in economics from Harvard. He was fully aware of the luxury tax consequences of the backloaded offer from Houston. I think he could have handled the situation with more class. Match, but trade him to Houston when we can. How about a first round draft pick?

    I am concerned about "gaining" Felton. I hate his game. He cannot shoot, but insists on being the hero. I am counting on Prigioni. I want to see as much of Felton as we saw of Douglas in the second half of last season.
    what would lux tax have anything to do with lin? lux tax is only the responsibility of the organization.. he just wanted the biggest contract possible

  13. #1213
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    Originally Posted by BillyHoyle
    No, the difference is the price was wrong for lee because signing him meant we couldn't get Stat. The price is right for Lin because signing him does not prevent any future possible moves, it only allows for more.



    Funny, but the "85 %" idea is ridiculous. People don't heal in percentages. He either was healthy enough to play or the injury prevented him from doing what he needed. Obviously, since we didn't see him in a game, Lin felt he wasn't ready to come back.



    Once again, why do you care...60 million for Stat/Melo/Chandler prevents any future flexibility. The ability to sign lin is a gift bc of the early bird rights. It's not fiscally responsible to not match the offer. The money comes straight from Dolan, which personally does not bother me.
    Why is everyone jumping on the Screaming A Smith can u give me 15 min 85% bull**** comment? I just don't get it?

    Does everyone seem to forget that it was Our Front Office that told Lin not to risk himself and held him out in the playoffs

    And O by the way when he first got hurt EVERYONE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE OUT UNTIL THE SECOND ROUND OF THE PLAYOFFS

    I may be on the position that lin may have screwed himself out of new york but I'm not going to question his heart when during that span he gave us his all and was playing hurt

    85% my ass, let me know the next time you go to medical school and adequately diagnose athletes on their sports injuries and give a reasonable time table for return or help them with pain management

    At the end of the day as i reflect on this entire thing the knicks told lin to set his market price because they didn't want to overpay. HE DID THAT The FO could of avoided this entire situation by giving him a reasonable contract. This is the same FO that said they would match any offer up to one billion dollars

    At the end of the day i don't think not matching Lin is made from a basketball or financial perspective as many here have argued but on a personal level. That Dolan is reacting out of spite because he got out- schooled in business by lin's agent and he made it persona. He felt like he should of gotten a hometown discount. If this is strictly a business decision then why would you let an asset walk for nothing? Lin is a walking ATM The trade reeks of Dolan being a petchulant child after Lin did the underhanded power play. At the end of the day everyone loses Lin, Dolan, and the fans because this situation could of been handled differently


    And honestly Lin>Felton acquiring him is just a downgrade at the PG position. Last time he was here he was on short contract just as before a stop-gap in the debunked CP3 sweepstakes

  14. #1214
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    Default Jeremy Spoke in Class Today

    ^c'mon now, Stephen A. Smith's initials are A.S.S.!!

    nice posts from WeReady and BillyHoyle (who can't jump) and Oldtimer ("gaining" Felton...HAH!).

    these next 23 hours are going to be painstaking. my stomach hurts reading all the Lin-opinions
    from every KO poster and a$$hole journalist out there.

    can't wait for "the decision". what will D'oh-lan do?

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    lmao when this **** ends its going to be epic funny, whether we match or not these past 2 weeks have been hilarious

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