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Thread: Melo needs the ball more...and iso.

  1. #31
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    Originally Posted by TakMan
    To be fair he did quite well until overtime. I believe he was shooting 50% up until then. He only really scored through driving at the basket though, rather than making mid range shots. I'm watching Kobe play his heart out at 33 and wondering why anthony is not playing to even half of his potential at 28. He needs to sort this out, otherwise no one should be advocating him getting that many tries in a game (particularly one on the line).
    Yeah, it seems the team was down after regulation and the Celtics were pumped. I figure the whole team was shocked that they weren't allowed to foul in those last few seconds. Only a D' antoni run team would lose that game

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    Originally Posted by TakMan
    Well he got the ball yesterday in overtime; lost us the game. Got the ball against the nuggets; lost us the game. Hasn't won us a game thus far (minus the first game of the season), so giving him the ball more may not be too good an idea. He is bricking away this year. He needs to assess his game on a day to day basis. When he's on a roll, he should shoot, when he's missed a few good shots, he needs to limit his shots otherwise our very good and consistent role players will not be utilised. 8-21 is a disgusting % for a 'star' player to have. This % is also more or less his average for the season.
    Well, some of his missed shots were result of fighting at boards, I recall a possession where Carmelo missed a tough layup but followed up and tried to tip the ball thrice before he was fouled. Take those three missed tips and you have 50% shooting. I agree Pierce outplayed him but it seems the Celtics legend is just a tough matchup for Anthony. However, there was a crucial possession where Carmelo was double teamed and had Lintendo wide open but he forced the shot anyway. I can't tell you anything about OT, because I couldn't watch due to some LP issues. If there is anyone who should be blamed for the defeat it is Mike D'Antoni with his dumb decision making in clutch situations.

  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by TakMan
    Honestly I don't see a problem with having a team which gives added responsibility to our role players. Anthony is no Bryant, and giving him a Bryant-esque sort of role is wrong. The more players you have capable of causing problems, the better you will fare against good defensive teams. Realistically Anthony has yet to achieve much in the NBA. I think now is when he should limit his shooting sprees to games where the team is not performing as one unit, rather than potentially mess up an effective setup. We now have a team that should not depend on Anthony game in game out in order to win. He needs to adapt, take wise shots (not forced shots which essentially lost us the game in overtime) and acknowledge that there are more than capable players he can pass to on the double team. At the end of the day basketball is a team sport; not a one man show.
    I'm not saying the team should just go all Melo and STAT like Miami does with Wade and Lebron, but they both need the ball more they gotta get going it would make things easier on everyone else if the D is so focused and afraid of those guys. And I know they both have been playing below their standards all year but in the playoffs you need your star players badly so the Knicks need to give them more touches and hope they find their way come playoff time.

    Because at the end of the day Lin, Novak, and Shump are not gonna win a ring for NY it's gonna ultimately come down to those Melo and Amare leading the way offensively.

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    Originally Posted by NYCLakerfan
    I'm not saying the team should just go all Melo and STAT like Miami does with Wade and Lebron, but they both need the ball more they gotta get going it would make things easier on everyone else if the D is so focused and afraid of those guys. And I know they both have been playing below their standards all year but in the playoffs you need your star players badly so the Knicks need to give them more touches and hope they find their way come playoff time.

    Because at the end of the day Lin, Novak, and Shump are not gonna win a ring for NY it's gonna ultimately come down to those Melo and Amare leading the way offensively.
    I don't think there's a specific formula here. It should be more about what works at that point. The idea of having depth is to ensure there is a battling squad in spite of bad performances from your stars. Look at the 04 Pistons. Can we really say they had any stars on their team? They had very good role players and a collective mindset based on defence. Anthony and Stoudamire need to be adaptable in order to realise the situations where the team needs them. When they attempt to take over at times when the team is rolling without a substantial input on their end, then they run the risk of destroying the team's chemistry. So the idea is pretty basic. When the team isn't defending, defend; when the team isn't shooting, take it upon yourself to get those much needed points; but do not attempt to highlight yourself in a situation where the team is clicking and winning.

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    Melo and Amare are being under utilized as a result of this system. Yes it looks good and is even efffective at times when you have so many different guys who have the green light to shoot. This is however not going to get you through a playoff series. The Novaks, Lins, Shumperts and Fields of a team CAN be contained when you have a coach who has a whole series to gameplan for the same players.

    Novak does ONE thing well, so if you keep a defender on him at all times (no help D) he's useless.

    Fields is good when he's moving without the ball but unless he gets a good pass going to the basket he's just your average utility role player. Not a good 1 on 1 player either.

    Shumpert is good the way he is right now. A great defender who picks his spots well on offense. I prefer him to attack the basket over shoot as he's very inconsistent.

    Lin has above average court vision but lacks superior ball handling skill for that position. MIA's defensive game plan against him was perfect and it seems other teams are slowly implementing the same thing against him. Trap him at half court forcing him pass out and he's not quite the same player when/if he gets it back.

    My point is Melo is the type of guy that has the ability to go off unless he's constantly double or triple teamed. There is no one way to stop Melo. He's your go to player and should be featured more. I believe Amare is also in that category but he needs the assistance of a passer. Lin should not be shooting more than Amare. Sorry but he isn't Nash or D-Will or Rondo or CP3.

    Imagine OKC if the ball was just free flowing and KD and Westbrook were just going with the flow. KD and RW not being able to do their thing would hurt them more than help, regardless if the role players started to look good in the process. There is an order of dominance on a team. Its always been that way. Great players will take you to the top or fail doing it. They can't do it all by themselves, so role players should be capable of supporting but still understanding who's your main guy(s).

    I honestly think this is Antoni's last season unless they reach the conference finals. There is just too much money invested in Amare and Melo for them to look like role players out there. This system is great for guys on one year deals that need to show offensive production to prolong their careers. When Novak is on the court he's basically the go to player. I love the kid and think he's an amazing 3 pt shooter but he's over used and on the court too long at times. He should be situational ONLY and set up on the strong side wherever Amare is. The problem with this is Amare doesn't post up so i'd say Melo instead.

    Ultimately there needs to be a coaching change. I see two alpha male players and a great supporting cast. I'd like to see a coach with traditional standards implement something to make this work. I've seen the "feature your stars approach" work waaay more than the "green light for everyone" approach.
    Last edited by nyk_nyk; Mar 05, 2012 at 10:42.

  6. #36
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    Hey guys. Long time reader, first time poster. What I wanna say is why the hell was the ball in Melo's hands instead of Novak's for the last shot of regulation. Yes Melo will get more points in a game but for one shot Novak is much more likely to score. Is this a usual MDA blunder? Or did Lin pass to the wrong guy? (Or did I just miss Novak being guarded by 3 celtics player cause I was on a rubbish online stream?)

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    Carmelo is recognized as one of the most clutchy players around the league. The only situation when I don't want him to shoot the final shot is when he's triple teamed and Lin or Novak is wide open.

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    Originally Posted by TakMan
    I don't think there's a specific formula here. It should be more about what works at that point. The idea of having depth is to ensure there is a battling squad in spite of bad performances from your stars. Look at the 04 Pistons. Can we really say they had any stars on their team? They had very good role players and a collective mindset based on defence. Anthony and Stoudamire need to be adaptable in order to realise the situations where the team needs them. When they attempt to take over at times when the team is rolling without a substantial input on their end, then they run the risk of destroying the team's chemistry. So the idea is pretty basic. When the team isn't defending, defend; when the team isn't shooting, take it upon yourself to get those much needed points; but do not attempt to highlight yourself in a situation where the team is clicking and winning.
    1. I hate when ppl use that Piston excuse their players werent popular or well known but as far as on the court in 04 Billups was a top 5 PG, Sheed was the 3rd best PF after Duncan and KG, Wallace was the best defensive player, Prince was the 2nd best perimeter defender after Artest, and Rip was the best off ball player. So contrary to popular belief that Piston team was stacked and they knew their role Chauncey, Sheed, and Rip carry the offensive load with Chauncey closing out games.

    2. It's not good for you star players to have to wait around for the right opportunity when to take a shot or not, this is the NBA you win by your best players carrying the biggest load. Right now the load is spread out too evenly that imo it's one of the factors thats hurting Melo and Amare's development back to their true potential. Now I'm not saying NY should drop everything their doing and only do Iso's for Melo and pick and rolls only hitting Amare no this team is mad deep but still on a deep team you best players can't go 3 or 4 possessions with no touches at all and like 5 or 6 with no shot attempts.
    No great team has won without utilizing their best players to the fullest no matter how balance or how great the team work is theirs always a pecking order that needs to be followed. And I think Baron Davis starting will get thing in order because I don't think Lin realizes this and I know MDA isn't telling him this.

  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    Melo and Amare are being under utilized as a result of this system. Yes it looks good and is even efffective at times when you have so many different guys who have the green light to shoot. This is however not going to get you through a playoff series. The Novaks, Lins, Shumperts and Fields of a team CAN be contained when you have a coach who has a whole series to gameplan for the same players.

    Novak does ONE thing well, so if you keep a defender on him at all times (no help D) he's useless.

    Fields is good when he's moving without the ball but unless he gets a good pass going to the basket he's just your average utility role player. Not a good 1 on 1 player either.

    Shumpert is good the way he is right now. A great defender who picks his spots well on offense. I prefer him to attack the basket over shoot as he's very inconsistent.

    Lin has above average court vision but lacks superior ball handling skill for that position. MIA's defensive game plan against him was perfect and it seems other teams are slowly implementing the same thing against him. Trap him at half court forcing him pass out and he's not quite the same player when/if he gets it back.

    My point is Melo is the type of guy that has the ability to go off unless he's constantly double or triple teamed. There is no one way to stop Melo. He's your go to player and should be featured more. I believe Amare is also in that category but he needs the assistance of a passer. Lin should not be shooting more than Amare. Sorry but he isn't Nash or D-Will or Rondo or CP3.

    Imagine OKC if the ball was just free flowing and KD and Westbrook were just going with the flow. KD and RW not being able to do their thing would hurt them more than help, regardless if the role players started to look good in the process. There is an order of dominance on a team. Its always been that way. Great players will take you to the top or fail doing it. They can't do it all by themselves, so role players should be capable of supporting but still understanding who's your main guy(s).

    I honestly think this is Antoni's last season unless they reach the conference finals. There is just too much money invested in Amare and Melo for them to look like role players out there. This system is great for guys on one year deals that need to show offensive production to prolong their careers. When Novak is on the court he's basically the go to player. I love the kid and think he's an amazing 3 pt shooter but he's over used and on the court too long at times. He should be situational ONLY and set up on the strong side wherever Amare is. The problem with this is Amare doesn't post up so i'd say Melo instead.

    Ultimately there needs to be a coaching change. I see two alpha male players and a great supporting cast. I'd like to see a coach with traditional standards implement something to make this work. I've seen the "feature your stars approach" work waaay more than the "green light for everyone" approach.

    This is a great post I especially agree on something that you brought up that no one has, this team needs Melo as the primary low post scorer. Every NBA champion has had atleast one player that was a dominant scorer down low whether it was the Lakers with Kobe/Gasol/Bynum or when we had Shaq down low in the early 2000's, TD in SA, MJ posting up for Chicago, Hakeem in Houston etc.

    My point is this team really needs a guy with a good back to the basket game where everyone clears out the lane and lets him go to work. Amare never had a back to the basket game, Chandlers offensive game is very challenged, Jeffries is as well, and Novak can only shoot 3's. But the Knicks luckily have by far the best low post SF in the league in Melo and need to feature him down low way more imo this is where like 50% of his points should be coming from no SF can handle him down low. He can play make from down low hit a cutting Chandler or Amare, or hit shooters like Novak or JR because eventually teams have too honor his presence down low and it opens things up so much.

    This is also the main reason I'd be extremely surprised if OKC wins a ring this year because they have literally no low post options, KD needs to develop that part of his game ASAP.
    Last edited by NYCLakerfan; Mar 05, 2012 at 23:39.

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    Originally Posted by NYCLakerfan
    1. I hate when ppl use that Piston excuse their players werent popular or well known but as far as on the court in 04 Billups was a top 5 PG, Sheed was the 3rd best PF after Duncan and KG, Wallace was the best defensive player, Prince was the 2nd best perimeter defender after Artest, and Rip was the best off ball player. So contrary to popular belief that Piston team was stacked and they knew their role Chauncey, Sheed, and Rip carry the offensive load with Chauncey closing out games.
    See I'm of the opinion that on their own these players can not be categorised as stars. They just had a setup that worked. Every player had his role and recognised it with no one standing out in particular. It's hardly as if anyone went on to thrive after this setup was broken up. I agree to some extent that stars are necessary for a championship team, however this is a very tricky time for the Knicks, particularly if you consider that the wins we have accomplished (and we have accomplished wins against some very good teams including the Lakers, the Mavs, and the Hawks) have been mostly if not all down to our role players. All I'm saying is it is not necessary -with a team like this- to rely on your stars to perform at all times; and by rely I mean get them the ball as much as possible every game, particularly the way they are performing at the moment.

    nyk_nyk's post makes some very accurate observations, only that I'm still waiting for Anthony to 'go off' this season. I strongly believe it will happen, but the Knicks can't afford to keep giving him the ball and expecting that this will be the moment of 'the return of Carmelo Anthony'. Like I said it's a very tricky time. I'm also of the opinion that Baron Davis should be starting. Lin has much to learn in order to add variety to his game, and maintain composure under pressure. He also needs to work on his ball handling abilities (in basketball terms anyway).

  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    Melo and Amare are being under utilized as a result of this system. Yes it looks good and is even efffective at times when you have so many different guys who have the green light to shoot. This is however not going to get you through a playoff series. The Novaks, Lins, Shumperts and Fields of a team CAN be contained when you have a coach who has a whole series to gameplan for the same players.

    Novak does ONE thing well, so if you keep a defender on him at all times (no help D) he's useless.

    Fields is good when he's moving without the ball but unless he gets a good pass going to the basket he's just your average utility role player. Not a good 1 on 1 player either.

    Shumpert is good the way he is right now. A great defender who picks his spots well on offense. I prefer him to attack the basket over shoot as he's very inconsistent.

    Lin has above average court vision but lacks superior ball handling skill for that position. MIA's defensive game plan against him was perfect and it seems other teams are slowly implementing the same thing against him. Trap him at half court forcing him pass out and he's not quite the same player when/if he gets it back.

    My point is Melo is the type of guy that has the ability to go off unless he's constantly double or triple teamed. There is no one way to stop Melo. He's your go to player and should be featured more. I believe Amare is also in that category but he needs the assistance of a passer. Lin should not be shooting more than Amare. Sorry but he isn't Nash or D-Will or Rondo or CP3.

    Imagine OKC if the ball was just free flowing and KD and Westbrook were just going with the flow. KD and RW not being able to do their thing would hurt them more than help, regardless if the role players started to look good in the process. There is an order of dominance on a team. Its always been that way. Great players will take you to the top or fail doing it. They can't do it all by themselves, so role players should be capable of supporting but still understanding who's your main guy(s).

    I honestly think this is Antoni's last season unless they reach the conference finals. There is just too much money invested in Amare and Melo for them to look like role players out there. This system is great for guys on one year deals that need to show offensive production to prolong their careers. When Novak is on the court he's basically the go to player. I love the kid and think he's an amazing 3 pt shooter but he's over used and on the court too long at times. He should be situational ONLY and set up on the strong side wherever Amare is. The problem with this is Amare doesn't post up so i'd say Melo instead.

    Ultimately there needs to be a coaching change. I see two alpha male players and a great supporting cast. I'd like to see a coach with traditional standards implement something to make this work. I've seen the "feature your stars approach" work waaay more than the "green light for everyone" approach.
    Nice post.

    Echoes a lot of sentiments that I have divulged here on KO for the last year.

    I believe Mike's system can work in unison with Melo, but I see no incentive to make changes.

    Once the season comes to an end - wherever/whenever that will be - if there aren't any necessary adjustments to really get this team working with some added offensive versatility, it's the end of the D'Antoni era in NY.

  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by NYCLakerfan
    This is a great post I especially agree on something that you brought up that no one has, this team needs Melo as the primary low post scorer. Every NBA champion has had atleast one player that was a dominant scorer down low whether it was the Lakers with Kobe/Gasol/Bynum or when we had Shaq down low in the early 2000's, TD in SA, MJ posting up for Chicago, Hakeem in Houston etc.

    My point is this team really needs a guy with a good back to the basket game where everyone clears out the lane and lets him go to work. Amare never had a back to the basket game, Chandlers offensive game is very challenged, Jeffries is as well, and Novak can only shoot 3's. But the Knicks luckily have by far the best low post SF in the league in Melo and need to feature him down low way more imo this is where like 50% of his points should be coming from no SF can handle him down low. He can play make from down low hit a cutting Chandler or Amare, or hit shooters like Novak or JR because eventually teams have too honor his presence down low and it opens things up so much.

    This is also the main reason I'd be extremely surprised if OKC wins a ring this year because they have literally no low post options, KD needs to develop that part of his game ASAP.
    I think we should all be aware by now that Antoni is not well versed in the art of the post up. His coaching style has always been about shooting. He had years to develop Amare in the post but it wasn't important to him. Most likely because it would slow his speedball type game.

    With that said, I don't forsee him intentionally running anything with Melo in the post. Melo would have to do it on his own.

  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    Nice post.

    Echoes a lot of sentiments that I have divulged here on KO for the last year.

    I believe Mike's system can work in unison with Melo, but I see no incentive to make changes.

    Once the season comes to an end - wherever/whenever that will be - if there aren't any necessary adjustments to really get this team working with some added offensive versatility, it's the end of the D'Antoni era in NY.
    Mike will not make changes because thats all he knows. Just look at the early development of Jorts for example. Most coaches would immediately see him as a potential defensive asset in the paint FIRST and then maybe some light scoring off put backs or anything close to the basket. Mike immediately sees a 3pt shooting PF. I don't even understand how that happened. I mean during the first full practice, was Mike making everyone shoot 3s? It just seems logical that you'd have your centers and PFs running drills close to the basket. Plus it's not like Jorts was attempting a lot of 3s in college.

    This just shows how unconventional Antoni's practices might be.

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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    I think we should all be aware by now that Antoni is not well versed in the art of the post up. His coaching style has always been about shooting. He had years to develop Amare in the post but it wasn't important to him. Most likely because it would slow his speedball type game.

    With that said, I don't forsee him intentionally running anything with Melo in the post. Melo would have to do it on his own.
    I agree he's too dumb to realize you need at least one reliable guy down low it should be Amare but I can't see him developing a legitimate post game this late in his career but Melo already has one of the best.

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