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Thread: D'antoni Offensive Philosophy Researched/The Problem With Carmelo And Amar

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    Veteran BIG APPLE SPORTS's Avatar
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    Nyk Logo D'antoni Offensive Philosophy Researched/The Problem With Carmelo And Amar

    Well after doing something a lot of us don't want to do which is doing research on our coach, i have found that he has drastically changed his offense into something that is not what he has done in the past and he really is trying to create a new found mold of his old system to fit the players that are on our team. So now he has to almost create an offense from the ground up to adjust to Melo and Stat but the problem is not the plays but the lack of spacing and room for our 2 stars to operate.

    I have looked up Steve Nash Pick And Roll tape and found that it seems so easy for him to make passes out of reading the defense off of the roll. In Phoenix the Suns had a plethora of sharpshooters and stretch 5's and 4's who were matched up against traditional big men. Amar'e and Nash's Pick And Roll was basically a game of 2 on 2 and each player had to quickly analyze the situation which either meant an over commit on Nash or Stoudemire which led to either a jumper or drive for Nash or a dunk or jumper for Amar'e.

    With Tyson Chandler, Carmelo, Fields, Shumpert and Jeffries as our unit, we are nothing like Phoenix in terms of spacing and shooting. It also helped that Amar'e could go 1-1 with almost every center and dominate them since the more athletic big men had to stay on the stretch 4 which was Shawn Marion or Diaw.

    With our unit Amar'e has no space for cuts to the basket and cant attack the basket without 3 jersey's their every time. He cannot create his own offense without a clear lane to the basket because as a Face Up Big man you need to either shoot or drive. Well now big men play aggressive on Amar'e knowing their is plenty help behind them and he has few opportunities for easy looks at the basket. Now this eliminates Amar'e driving lanes and he rarely see's opportunities to attack the basket and now forces his shots.

    Our unit cannot run the Pick And Roll unless it is with Tyson Chandler since If they help we have decent shooters but most of all Amar'e will knock down the midrange jumper 7/10 times. But when Amar'e rolls to the basket the other big can basically forget about Tyson Chandler and drop down to clog the cutting lane and help on the cutting Amar'e.

    Look at Phoenix and look at how much space on the floor Nash and Co. got to work with and the consequences of helping on the Pick And Roll:



    The defense was basically at the mercy of Phoenix offense since you would get burned for helping by the 3 ball or if you stopped the roll to the basket than Amar'e would stop and pop from mid range for an easy jumper or you would leave the greatest shooter ever wide open or a lane to the basket.

    Look at how easy it is for Amar'e to score in Phoenix, he was Unguardable and in Rhythm & on the move all the time, all he was doing was cutting, running, and popping jumpers-not far from what he does now, just that now he gets none of the looks he gets in this video:



    D'antoni success relies on spacing and shooting and this team can't provide neither which leads to our stars trying to create out of nothing most of the time. The first half of the Boston game showed that if we run we will get trailing players easy open shots or Alley's for the runners as this is the only time we can space the floor since the defense is not set and must make quick decisions.

    Amar'e is being forced to play a way he has never played before which is creating from Difficult situations. Amar'e summed up is a excellent finisher and good jump shooter, nothing more nothing less, and if we cannot get him in his sweet spots or in better situations to score then no matter how long it takes or how much time we have to "Gel" he will never succeed.

    D'antoni explaining his Pick And Roll philosophy:



    As he explained in the video, we need shooters to space the floor to give our PG options from the Pick. Well with our group it is either you find the cutting big man or nothing. In the video he says that Felton had the options of finding Gallo, Chandler, or fields for a 3 if the defense helped or take his own shot or find a cutting STAT for a dunk. Now with our squad you can take about 3 of those options out of the equation and its either Lin driving or shooting or maybe Chandler finishes at the rim or Amar'e open for a jumper.

    Carmelo Anthony's Problem:
    Now i will be the first to admit i thought Carmelo Anthony was an overrated offensive player, but after watching about 11 games on Youtube i have seen that his problem is simple yet very difficult to correct.

    In Denver we all know Carmelo was basically a full time ISO player. Well the reason being was the SPACING that he got to do his damage. With Kenyon Martin And Nene the Nuggets had 2 decent mid range shooting bigmen that could hit open shots 4-6/10 times per night if left open. In NY Melo always has one lurking big waiting to help when he drives or a double coming from the guy guarding Landry Fields or Iman since they are not serious threats from deep. In Denver this never happened, He was basically on an island with his defender where he would win the battle 8/10 times. He could unleash his full arsenal of moves and did not have to worry about being trapped or helped on since he had Jr, Billups, Lawson and Afflalo behind the 3pt line.

    One thing that is the fault of D'antoni is that Carmelo is put in stand still situations without movement. Carmelo is a In-rhythm scorer that is best scoring when he is on the move, Not in terms of coming off screens but Melo's shooting percentage goes down significantly when spotting up, Melo likes to be going towards or away from the basket to get his shots off. In our system in its current state Melo is either SPOTTING UP or shooting contested jumpers or driving only to meet help defense. Melo now has very few chances to score and must rely on hitting open jumpers or Lin finding him cutting or in transition. That's 3 ways he scores now which eliminates the other ways he can score which is Isolating, Posting up, Attacking the basket or off the Pick And Roll.


    Melo has no driving lanes and looks like Michael Jordan in 1997 with all the shots he shoots from the mid range area since he cant bully his defender 1o1 into the paint and finish threw him or over him or break his man down with hesitations and dribble moves, when is the last time you seen Melo use his patented moves off the dribble or his arsenal of post moves? Now he gets blocked excessively from big men helping or misses because of highly contested shots. In Denver everything he did was on the move and not from a stand still but with our system he gets the ball in awkward situations and not given room to do what he does best, which is break his defender down 1 on 1.

    This was because of Denver's Variation of the Dribble Drive offense that allowed Anthony almost 2/3 of the floor to go to work with against his defender and if help came or over committed then he will dish to the cutter or the shooters.

    Bottom line is that Melo is not even playing in an offense that is catered to him which hasn't been the case his whole career. He is not given room to operate and is never in rhythm with his shots and cannot use his whole arsenal because of constant help and aggressiveness from his defender knowing someone behind him got his back. Amar'e and Melo have the same issues with their scoring which is Spacing And Rhythm Shots.

    Until this is corrected no matter how much practice we have, they will never be as effective as we want them to be or how they used to be. These two guys have always been scorers on the move and with our offense they are basically given the ball and needs to score on 3 guys to get their points, they are not comfortable and are not given the right personnel to be at the top of their game and will occasionally have great games since they are stars and will find ways to scorer, but long term they will always be inconsistent until the offense is changed or the right players are added.

    Few will read but i just had to research to see if it is just that Melo and Amar'e are having down years or are they just put in terrible situations. Sorry for the long read but the issue is difficult to get others to understand and must be broke down.
    Last edited by BIG APPLE SPORTS; Mar 09, 2012 at 01:55.

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    Post of the year.

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    Member TruOrngnBlu's Avatar
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    Default Great read!!



    Spot on!!

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    Right, Stat definitely needs room to operator, but when he was with the Suns, they basically had no center. To do this here, we pretty much have to get Chandler out of the way, and without a defensive force like Chandler in our line-up, we pretty much have no chance.

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    Greetings everyone!
    That's a great work of mind above my post! Really like the way you are thinking.
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    Veteran Sprewell-Houston's Avatar
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    Good post!

    On a sidenote: I think that Felton was underrated. He was pretty damn good at playing the pnr and his defense was decent too until he got tired.

    Lin is very good and the future, but he hasn't clicked with Amar'e at the pnr.

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    Nein, Mann! Lercher's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sprewell-Houston
    Good post!

    On a sidenote: I think that Felton was underrated. He was pretty damn good at playing the pnr and his defense was decent too until he got tired.

    Lin is very good and the future, but he hasn't clicked with Amar'e at the pnr.
    Lin hasn't played much P&R recently, he's been giving Amare/Carmelo the ball asap (we saw how it worked out before Linsanity) or driving to the basket. Before our "stars" got back he played helluva P&R with Jared and Tyson.

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    Veteran Sprewell-Houston's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dzwonsson
    Lin hasn't played much P&R recently, he's been giving Amare/Carmelo the ball asap (we saw how it worked out before Linsanity) or driving to the basket. Before our "stars" got back he played helluva P&R with Jared and Tyson.
    Exactly right. Leads me to the question why it doesn't work with him and Amar'e?

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    Big Apple that is a damn good post man. I have never saw the Amare 50 on youtube , makes you wonder what if we drafted him instead of Nene and kept Camby / Mark Jackson

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    awesome post, great read. what also hurts us is that on pick and rolls, teams dont respect lins shot as much as they did nash's ( rightfully so). So instead of overplaying nash and letting the guy setting the pick get clear, they close in on the guy setting the pick.

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Boy I tell ya!

    We can overanalyze or we can keep it simple stupid.

    1. This ain't Pheonix

    2. No one currently on our team, or used to be is Steve Nash.

    As Danny Ainge put it "Bird and McHale aren't walking through those doors to help you"

    3. Whatever system you want to call it:

    A) is unprooven
    B) increases negative stats just as accentuates some positives
    C) was run "best" with a squad 99% different from our current squad

    4. When we had more "role" players ala Felton & Gallo etc...
    WE WERE STILL NEXT TO LAST IN THE LEAGUE IN BOTH DEFENSE & REBOUNDING. Do you get that?

    Let me repeat for those sucking Gallo off....

    WE DIDN'T FIELD A CHAMPIONSHIP NOR SERIOUS PLAYOFF CALIBER TEAM BECAUSE OUR DEFENSE AND REBOUNDING WERE TOO POOR THEN.

    5. Almost EVERY player we had prior to this year PLAYED OUT OF POSITION!

    6. The only semi-legit argument anyone could present with minimal validity was the player argument.

    We'll guess what you f*cking in denial unrealistic fantasizers...

    Your beloved coached just proved he's way in over his head.

    It takes a special coach to:

    1. Recognize a player's/team's weaknesses and develop them to the point where they no longer exist.

    Many of our players can't nor couldn't play defense with consistency. Has D'Antoni proved he could change that? No

    2. Be successful in New York City
    D'Antoni is SUB .500, is that your opinion of success? No

    3. Coach the many ego's and talents of stars or higher talented players. D'Antoni has proven he can't influence the synergy needed for that to happen.

    4. Know when he's wrong. Do I have to list the many players with the same if not better skill set that he DNP'd for his personal reasons like a bitch? No

    5. Game plan specific. Have we witnessed a game plan to stop a specific player like teams with better coaches have done to us? No

    6. Get the best out of his team. Besides PG's whom I may add have had the most injuries due to overue, who has D'Antoni made better?

    7. Motivate. The key here is consistency. D'Antoni has been consistently inconsistent.

    You guy's remind me of weak minded losers who talk themselves into staying with a Bitch because she cooks great. Please n!gga. I never settle.

    Especially for mediocrity! No

    D'Antoni is amongst thehighest paid coaches in the league. DO US ALL A F*CKING FAVOR AND EXPLAIN WHY HE SHOULD BE. If not then stfu.

    No offense to the thread starter. A for effort but Fail for revisiting PHX as if that was a blueprint for success.
    Last edited by Red; Mar 09, 2012 at 12:26.

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Post of the year.
    It's a work of art.

    IMO, it should be stickied.

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    ^^^ what Red said.

    Dumbtoni has 2 superstars, the second best Center in the league and a bench full of players that every other coach in the leave would love to have and he still can't get it done..

    END OF STORY.

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    It's about ****ing time. Excellent post.

    Amidst all of the ranting and raving about STAT's loss of explosiveness, I've been imploring people to actually watch the game and just look at how uncomfortable STAT looks when Tyson is on the court. I really simplified it by saying that Tyson is occupying too much space with his own presence and bringing his man down low, STAT is forced to be a jump shooter, or take awkward drives to the rim and either fail, or fail and get a charging foul called on him.

    He flourished last year as our center, with the court spaced by Fields, Gallo, and Wilson. Now this year he has Tyson...who's going no where, and it just happens to coincide with his lack of explosiveness, and the majority of the forums was focusing on that.

    So when I bring up..."hey...this isn't exactly working, the Knicks should explore moving him (if at all possible) for a stretch 4 that actually fits into the offense, instead of trying to shoehorn the square peg into the round hole"-- I get nothing constructive... The majority of what I got was "shut up" or "come on dude, give STAT time!!!" I'm like, time to what?!?!??

    Never got an answer.

    I'm glad to see a post that goes into this kind of detail tho, and get some recognition. +rep for this.

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    Originally Posted by OriginalKnickGrandson
    ^^^ what Red said.

    Dumbtoni has 2 superstars, the second best Center in the league and a bench full of players that every other coach in the leave would love to have and he still can't get it done..

    END OF STORY.


    Sad.

    Stop tainting some of the recently rare high-powered, quality, well-researched threads on here w/ these lame ass, played out D'antoni obsessions.

    There are plenty of pastures on here to spread this type of uninspired ****.

    Ah ya, read the thread too.

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